Behringer to introduce sub-100$ range of modules

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

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roger
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Post by roger » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:31 am

Foghorn wrote:If they do go ahead and make some modules, I hope they are not too cheap.
I would rather see half decent pots and jacks, and also enough room that you can turn the pots and use the jacks.
This. I buy module because of the haptics. Buying a module and getting cheap controls is kind of contra-productive.

Paranormal Patroler wrote:I wonder if any of the newest manufacturers will reach out to Behringer. I wonder if any of the old manufacturers will.
Would be interesting to know how much they can adjust according to the developers quality expectations.

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strangegravity
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Post by strangegravity » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:46 pm

The Model-D felt pretty solid (my friend has one). Maybe they will do something innovative. I say go for it.

The market naturally weeds out junk (Poor sales reflective of poor quality). Although there is the crowd that goes for cheep over all else.

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fuzzyboy
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Post by fuzzyboy » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:16 pm

I'd be happy to see more cheap utility and basic modulation modules, buffered multiples, simple mixers, midi-to-cv, power, cases, etc should be mass produced and free human resource to actually focus on producing great sounding stuff like VCOs, effects, filters, performance mixers

We need more automation and price reduction for less creative parts of the modular world and boutique quality, craft and attention to detail to what actually influence the creative process and resulting sound most.

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Post by TemplarK » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:27 pm

The one thing i'm really not too sure about is them wanting Eurorack designers to get involved, does this mean that they don't think they have enough good ideas to go for a full Eurorack manufacturing process, or do they genuniely want to help people get good ideas out, I'm not sure, I've never heard of a company just go out and say things like that.

For sure they are going to be inundated with people sending them prototypes on breadboards haha.

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Trebbers
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Post by Trebbers » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:46 pm

It seems weird to me too. Wonder if this is Behringer starting to move into contract manufacturing as a way to make make money on the sale of boutique products they aren't directly competing against.

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Post by TemplarK » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:51 pm

Trebbers wrote:It seems weird to me too. Wonder if this is Behringer starting to move into contract manufacturing as a way to make make money on the sale of boutique products they aren't directly competing against.
I guess its the design part that costs them the most money, months of mutiple man teams that are not directly manufacturing, the manufacturing can be costed and brought back with the module sales but who knows how long it might take a design team to make something that will sell enough in the Euro market to actually break a profit? So they think ah, if we get people to show us their awesome ideas we might hit gold, they benefit, we benefit and we all make bank?

I don't know. We'll see how it goes i guess.

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Post by Mark II » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:55 pm

Grizzly Bearinger ...

We're doomed!
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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:05 pm

Eurorack seems to have a weird thing where it's cheaper modules are well built and are pretty good, while some more expensive modules start to falter with issues like wobbly knobs etc. Doepfer and Ladik modules are built like tanks, and I can personally attest to the longevity of Doepfer modules, having owned most of mine for over 10 years. Completely through hole too in most cases, making any potential repairs or mods easy.

Behringer getting into the cheap module market seems interesting, and despite their reputation, seems to be making excellent synths. Lets see if their modules keep that up.

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Post by pre55ure » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:49 pm

Trebbers wrote:It seems weird to me too. Wonder if this is Behringer starting to move into contract manufacturing as a way to make make money on the sale of boutique products they aren't directly competing against.
From a manufacturers perspective this seems like the worst idea ever. I mean sure, who wouldn’t want to hand over all of the data necessary to create your product to a company that has been sued multiple times for copyright infringement ? The vast majority of modular companies dont have the money to bring a lawsuit against behringer assuming they dont hold up thier end of the bargain. What could go wrong there?

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Post by starthief » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:49 pm

Shledge wrote:Eurorack seems to have a weird thing where it's cheaper modules are well built and are pretty good, while some more expensive modules start to falter with issues like wobbly knobs etc. Doepfer and Ladik modules are built like tanks, and I can personally attest to the longevity of Doepfer modules, having owned most of mine for over 10 years. Completely through hole too in most cases, making any potential repairs or mods easy.
Perhaps overall Doepfer might be solid, but I have to say they have the worst panel edges I have seen. Presumably the panels are cut from a sheet, like plastic model kits where you snap the pieces off the sprue.

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:02 pm

Worst panel edges? As in sharpness or size? Can't say I have an issue with either. Can't say that with some of my other modules - I remember getting a cut from my uVCA when putting it into place, since the edges were sharp.

That and some modules just seem to completely ignore the sizing standards Doepfer has in place, leading to weird sub-HP gap issues. If you're gonna make expensive modules, at least make them consistent in sizing!

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Post by starthief » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Shledge wrote:Worst panel edges? As in sharpness or size?
None of the ones I have now are sharp, but you can see and feel where they were cut off from some other piece as part of the manufacturing process, and are even a little bit warped around that point.

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It's a minor nitpick, a "fit and finish" sort of thing that has almost no real effect. But every Doepfer module I've had has this except for the A180-9 Multicore -- possibly a different process because the panel is so small -- and I haven't seen it on any other manufacturer's panels.

There are definitely some panels out there that are narrower or wider than the standard, or have screw holes that don't align properly

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strangegravity
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Post by strangegravity » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:02 pm

Shledge wrote:Eurorack seems to have a weird thing where it's cheaper modules are well built and are pretty good, while some more expensive modules start to falter with issues like wobbly knobs etc. Doepfer and Ladik modules are built like tanks, and I can personally attest to the longevity of Doepfer modules, having owned most of mine for over 10 years. Completely through hole too in most cases, making any potential repairs or mods easy.

Behringer getting into the cheap module market seems interesting, and despite their reputation, seems to be making excellent synths. Lets see if their modules keep that up.
I'll throw Pittsburgh on the list of built like a tank and inexpensive.

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:04 pm

Likely they are stamped out in batches then snapped off. I never noticed the centre bulge until now, probably because the rails I have somewhat hide it.

They do tend to be the most consistent in sizing though - never had gaps with doepfer modules. The soft edges makes them stand out reasonably well.

All minor detail really, wouldn't really use it to determine quality personally, especially when you consider how solid everything else are. When I got my doepfer basic system years ago, I was particularly taken back on how solid the knobs were. :eek:

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Post by Joe. » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:04 pm

Behringer wrote:We want to collaborate with you. . .

You present is with your design (you need to have at least a working prototype) and perhaps show us a video etc. so we can understand your concept.

Provided you are OK with it, we could then post the video here and if there is enough interest, we would consider manufacturing and distributing the product for you. In return we would allow you to get a percentage of the revenue.

At the same time we would be featuring you and your designs so you get the well deserved exposure.

In short, we are willing to share our complete manufacturing, supply chain and marketing power with you, while you can focus on designing great modules. Of course we are more than happy to sign an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) so you are protected.
This sounds like a great way to get cheaply manufactured designs (ATmega, Arduino etc) out onto the market, but in a big production runs. Really hoping this one comes through and we see heaps of new designs in the future. :cloud:

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Post by TheDegenerateElite » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:39 pm

"We'd love to collaborate with you, but if not, that's cool too as we will go ahead and build your design anyways."



I honestly don't care what they do.

I'm sort of tired of the variable quality in Eurorack. Lots of my expensive modules feel cheap and dodgy. The best ones are cheaper Pitts and DIY stuff I've done like RYO and Synthrotek MST.

The really hit and miss user experience is getting annoying as well. Some modules are fine to use, others seem like I have to fight to turn a knob or plug in a cord.


I am on the verge of dumping Euro for 5U.

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:55 pm

TheDegenerateElite wrote:
I am on the verge of dumping Euro for 5U.
You need the ponytail first

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Post by Zube » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:11 am

Lots of great cheap module options out there. Lots of opportunity in DIY to make your own modules in small runs. There's not really a need for Behringer to enter Euro.

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Post by Euro Trash Bazooka » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:48 am

I don't trust Behringer. From the multiple lawsuits to quality control issues, there's always a problem waiting to happen with them along the line. I like peace of mind, therefore I won't buy any of their sh... stuff.

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Post by xenosapien » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:49 am

Interesting opinions on this topic, as expected...

I´m curious though:
Darkplace Manufacturing seems to have been offering that precise service for a while now... nobody´s complaining about that as far as I can tell...

Behringer goes ahead and says "well now that we have this giant ass factory, we´ve been asked this a lot" and that is somehow a bad thing?

I´m the last person on earth to be a Behringer fanboy (literally dumped all my B products because of quality complaints, but all of those are from before the "Behringer reboot"), but we should stop playing that "B is the devil" card, really. It´s getting a a bit hypocritical.

Also, from what I can tell, Behringer DID announce a shitload of products they are considering to build - and from what I can tell, they pretty much delivered all of those that were actually ANNOUNCED.

you gotta differentiate between "hey we have this prototype, what do you guys think about this idea?" (as seen with the recent "Pro One" clone) and stuff like "hey we are building this original synth, hope you guys like it" (aka the Neutron).

I am not too worried about the cost of a module being <100$ per se, to be honest, and as a few people have already pointed out, price point in Eurorack does not seem to guarantee good/bad quality either so far!

I say, bring it on.
And I have not heard too many build quality complaints about the recent Behringer releases, quite the contrary actually (people seem to be very happy with the X32 and the Xenyx mixers, for example), so maybe B has turned things around by building their own manufacturing facility?
may you live in interesting times.

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Post by Chopper » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:57 am

Kind of agree with Xenosapien.
Furthermore, as much as i don't agree with blind faith, i believe the "scene" is strong enough in its ways, standards and ethics to not be shaken significantly by any Behringer intrusion....
At the end of the day, it is our actions that will dictate the future of the Eurorack market....

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Post by Shledge » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:14 am

Chopper wrote:Kind of agree with Xenosapien.
Furthermore, as much as i don't agree with blind faith, i believe the "scene" is strong enough in its ways, standards and ethics to not be shaken significantly by any Behringer intrusion....
At the end of the day, it is our actions that will dictate the future of the Eurorack market....
:agree:

Eurorack is a "wild west" format, and as a result, doesn't really gain from competition. There are 100s of manufacturers, big and small, and they manage to do fine. Doepfer is still in business despite said manufacturers.

Roland didn't dent it, neither did Moog. I highly doubt Behringer would either - all they would do is add to the huge choice we have.

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Post by dubonaire » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:24 am

One of the best things about modular is you can have direct exchanges with the people who own the company and design your modules, even if sometimes they appear rude. That's something to be valued. I value three things, the functionality, the manufacturing quality and feel of the module (including pots fixed to faceplates), and the close link to the designer.

I think that in addition to the modularity and tactility, part of my attraction to modular are those artisanal qualities, which are hard to come by these days. So that will influence my choices. Not saying it should influence others, I'm also quite happy to buy anonymous synths from the big manufacturers.

For me modular is a place where you can use an instrument that has been designed by someone who may have infuriated you, but who is also readily available to explain design choices down to individual resistors used. I think that's living culture, and global - it's pretty awesome.

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Post by Bob Borries » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:39 pm

I'de really like to see the effects section of the Deepmind 12 in a module, and maybe some filter clones and possibly rare Oscillator clones from the like of Oscar, 2600 and Buchla.

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Post by Rex Coil 7 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:54 pm

Shledge wrote:Eurorack seems to have a weird thing where it's cheaper modules are well built and are pretty good, while some more expensive modules start to falter with issues like wobbly knobs etc.
By "more expensive" combined with "wobbly knobs" I'm guessing you're aiming at digital modules that use encoders. The "wobbly knobs" thing is mostly due to the use of less costly digital encoders. I really do not like "cheap" feeling encoders/wobbly knobs either, which prevents me from buying things such as the 0-Coast and other wobbly modules. But again, that goes back to the use of encoders rather than potentiometers, and digital designs use encoders for the most part. So it's more about a choice of digital vs analog. Many times some of these companies espouse designing products down to cost, rather than up to good functionality. I had a Novation Impulse keyboard controller that used such loose/wobbly knobs if you blew on them they'd change settings. Kidding aside, all I had to do was ~tap~ on the panel with one fingertip and the settings of nearby encoders would change values. I sold that, went with a Kurzweil PC3A6, now I have the most well built controller/digital synth I've ever owned. Great feeling controls. Very solid construction. Heavy!
Shledge wrote:Doepfer and Ladik modules are built like tanks, and I can personally attest to the longevity of Doepfer modules, having owned most of mine for over 10 years. Completely through hole too in most cases, making any potential repairs or mods easy.
Absolutely agree! But those of us in the Doepfer camp aren't using the Kewl Kidz stuff ... isn't Doepfer looked at nearly the same as 5U among the Euro crowd these days? Plain and boring? :lol: :mrgreen: :hihi:
strangegravity wrote: ....I'll throw Pittsburgh on the list of built like a tank and inexpensive.
Yea .... Pittsburgh ... real Pittsburgh (so to speak) and not the "Life forms" stuff that appears as though it is an entirely different brand. The original Pittsburgh module designs (the ones with the logo that looks like Dymo labels) are my favorites among their lineup. The deeply embossed/stamped (everwhat) brand name along with the general fabrication ethos is very appealing to me. But I am a little biased on that type of look. Um ... more than a little, actually. My preferences for that are satisfied in my DIY efforts by Front Panel Express ... engraved and infilled ... sick!

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Shledge wrote: When I got my doepfer basic system years ago, I was particularly taken back on how solid the knobs were. :eek:
Yup ... pots ... not encoders. Same thing most all 5U uses. BIG 24mm POTS! Flying leads, large jacks, easy connect PCBs .... BEG for modification or use as foundations for very custom projects that involve repanelling circuit boards.

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I dig on BIG switches as well as more working space between things ... makes for easier real time live performance control of the synthesizer.....

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TheDegenerateElite wrote:..... I'm sort of tired of the variable quality in Eurorack. Lots of my expensive modules feel cheap and dodgy. The best ones are cheaper Pitts and DIY stuff I've done like RYO and Synthrotek MST.

The really hit and miss user experience is getting annoying as well. Some modules are fine to use, others seem like I have to fight to turn a knob or plug in a cord.

I am on the verge of dumping Euro for 5U.
DO IT!!!! You will not regret it ... ever. I made the jump a few years ago, had the Doepfer Monster Base case loaded with doubles of a bunch of Livewire stuff. Sold it all off, bought some Dot Com stuff, made my own cabinet, and now have a synth I can modify the HELL out of, as well as repair easily (all through hole) and I can actually get my hands on the controls and operate them with more than one finger. The "feel" of the larger 1/4 plugs/jacks during patching is highly satisfying as well. I only use Euro for the weirdo modulation stuff (there's only ONE MATHS, of which I have two) and real time controls such as joysticks and touch strips (2 Lightstrips and 1 Lightpanel).
YOU SIMPLY MUST GO FOR IT!!!!!! Step up to Man Sized Synths!
Shledge wrote: ....You need the ponytail first
Wow, what an original statement. No one has ever said that before! I take it you're a comedian looking for work? :lol: :razz: :hihi: :lolhammer: :lolsign:
dubonaire wrote:One of the best things about modular is you can have direct exchanges with the people who own the company and design your modules, even if sometimes they appear rude. That's something to be valued. I value three things, the functionality, the manufacturing quality and feel of the module (including pots fixed to faceplates), and the close link to the designer.
Totally agree .... Roger Arrick of Synthesizers.Com has always made himself available, even though he's running a large company and is ceaselessly designing new modules. The 5U offerings of today are answering the calls for greater functional density (without making them SO dense that they become less useful). Graham Hinton is another person that really makes himself available to his customers, and just as much so to his non-customers. Danjiel of Intellijel seems to be available as well. "Modular" is all about development and growth. As far as junk modules go .... dirt sinks, cream rises.
You mean this place has hot chicks, morning drinking, and free vomit? ... I'm all in!
5U PROJECT - (skip pages 4 through 6, boring junk) ... viewtopic.php?t=78836&highlight=
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