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Behringer to introduce sub-100$ range of modules
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 24, 25, 26  Next [all]
Author Behringer to introduce sub-100$ range of modules
starthief
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
By "more expensive" combined with "wobbly knobs" I'm guessing you're aiming at digital modules that use encoders. The "wobbly knobs" thing is mostly due to the use of less costly digital encoders. I really do not like "cheap" feeling encoders/wobbly knobs either, which prevents me from buying things such as the 0-Coast and other wobbly modules. But again, that goes back to the use of encoders rather than potentiometers, and digital designs use encoders for the most part. So it's more about a choice of digital vs analog.


Um, no. Encoders are those controls that can keep going infinitely in any direction, and have no particular setting that they point to at any given time, just incrementing/decrementing something in software. Most digital modules use analog pots and read them with a DAC, because that is cheaper than an encoder and often makes more sense interface-wise.

0-Coast uses analog pots and... doesn't read them with a DAC because those sections are not digital. The only digital part is the MIDI converter (which includes an arpeggiator and LFO generator); the rest is 100% analog.

I haven't seen a wobbly encoder yet. Not on O_C, E352, E370, Twin Waves, Pamela's New Workout or the dual pitch encoder on Manis Iteritas. All of them securely panel-mounted and rock-solid.

The wobbliest knobs I've had in Euro were on Harvestman Kermit (digital, with analog pots with plastic shafts and no panel mount) and Sputnik Quad VCF/VCA (analog, with analog pots and no panel mount).
Kodama
xenosapien wrote:

I´m curious though:
Darkplace Manufacturing seems to have been offering that precise service for a while now... nobody´s complaining about that as far as I can tell...


In Portland OR, labor done by wigglers in this forum.

Besides the hit of cheap mass production to the market, the concern for me not being protectionism, but labor and environmental ethics.

Not to mention the possibility of direct "cloning" of smaller manufacturers.
Monotremata
zuliani wrote:

I'm worried, though, about build quality. With the exception of their (oddly solid) audio interfaces, every bit of Behringer gear I have is flimsy as hell. I have a guitar pedal that looked alright in pictures and then, upon arrival, revealed itself to be fairly light-weight plastic.

If Behringer makes a <$100 module, it's going to be carved out of a potato.


Seriously though, what did you expect from a $35 effects pedal? Boss's tank quality? I bought the HM-2 knock off a couple years ago while my HM-2 was in storage. It sounded just like it pretty much. Would I gig with it? Probably not unless I had to, thats what the Boss is for. Did I know what the build was like before I even bought it? Yep, thats why it was less than $30 from B&H Audio.. Works great at home when I don't want to drag my giant Pedaltrain out just to jam for a bit. You can always rehouse them with a little effort too.
dooj88
MarcelP wrote:
namshub wrote:
i'm exploding with indifference


Soon to be followed by an implosion of ennui.


already there, and i assure you it has nothing to do with uli's eurorack aspirations. MY ASS IS BLEEDING
tesserack
Kodama wrote:
xenosapien wrote:

I´m curious though:
Darkplace Manufacturing seems to have been offering that precise service for a while now... nobody´s complaining about that as far as I can tell...


In Portland OR, labor done by wigglers in this forum.

Besides the hit of cheap mass production to the market, the concern for me not being protectionism, but labor and environmental ethics.

Not to mention the possibility of direct "cloning" of smaller manufacturers.
where are the parts that use built?
Lineofcontrol
Nice to see some sensible conversation and discussion rather than the usual Love/Hate stuff...Please continue this way!

I think the best way forwards for them would be an inexpensive Keyboard controller like the KB37 (perhaps offered in larger sizes) which could house 1 to 3 of their synths like the Neutron, Boog or Pro1 or some of your eurorack gear. But also have built in utilities like audio interface, mults, midi interface, etc...

They could have an attachable vertical rack in addition to it too (like the upper tier of the Arturia Rack Brute)
Rex Coil 7
starthief wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
By "more expensive" combined with "wobbly knobs" I'm guessing you're aiming at digital modules that use encoders. The "wobbly knobs" thing is mostly due to the use of less costly digital encoders. I really do not like "cheap" feeling encoders/wobbly knobs either, which prevents me from buying things such as the 0-Coast and other wobbly modules. But again, that goes back to the use of encoders rather than potentiometers, and digital designs use encoders for the most part. So it's more about a choice of digital vs analog.


Um, no. Encoders are those controls that can keep going infinitely in any direction, and have no particular setting that they point to at any given time, just incrementing/decrementing something in software. Most digital modules use analog pots and read them with a DAC, because that is cheaper than an encoder and often makes more sense interface-wise.

0-Coast uses analog pots and... doesn't read them with a DAC because those sections are not digital..
Then that's not giving Make Noise much credibility. The 0-Coast is then a $500 pile of crap. For that kind of money, it should at LEAST have decent, if not the best, analog pots. There are $65.00 stomp boxes that have better components.

This only cements my preference for 5U gear even further. Before, I was giving certain makers a "break" for having shit-pots because I wrote it off as "well they're digital devices so encoders come with the territory". But now, they get no break from me.

BTW, just to get it said, that Novation I had used endless spin knobs .... call them what they must be called, but they sucked, wobbled, and were extremely easy to disturb. Encoders, pots, WHATEVER ... they blew chunks.

Huh ... so the 0-coast is using analog pots and they still feel like ass. What a crying shame. Yet one more mass produced item designed down to cost, rather than up to good engineering. Now THAT'S "resting on your laurels"!!!

seriously, i just don't get it

What gets me is that makers such as Make Money .... nope ... Make Noise read these forums, they read what we have to say, they must know what kind of feelings most people have for crap-ass wobblepots ... and yet....

d'oh!

I can understand why a place like Novation offers a $299 keyboard controller with crappy encoders ... it's obviously a cheap toy designed for those actually LOOKING for exactly that. But some of the other offerings by other makers that use such garbage in their designs ... all it does is damage their brand.

Oddly, my wife's Novation Mininova has really nice feeling ... um ... ~knobs~ (I'm loathe to call them pots or encoders, clearly I'm ignorant). In fact I quite enjoy using it (when she allows me) ... lol

Euro stuff. The "stomp box industry" of modular synths.

All Hail 5U!
we're not worthy
coolshirtdotjpg
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
starthief wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
By "more expensive" combined with "wobbly knobs" I'm guessing you're aiming at digital modules that use encoders. The "wobbly knobs" thing is mostly due to the use of less costly digital encoders. I really do not like "cheap" feeling encoders/wobbly knobs either, which prevents me from buying things such as the 0-Coast and other wobbly modules. But again, that goes back to the use of encoders rather than potentiometers, and digital designs use encoders for the most part. So it's more about a choice of digital vs analog.


Um, no. Encoders are those controls that can keep going infinitely in any direction, and have no particular setting that they point to at any given time, just incrementing/decrementing something in software. Most digital modules use analog pots and read them with a DAC, because that is cheaper than an encoder and often makes more sense interface-wise.

0-Coast uses analog pots and... doesn't read them with a DAC because those sections are not digital..
Then that's not giving Make Noise much credibility. The 0-Coast is then a $500 pile of crap. For that kind of money, it should at LEAST have decent, if not the best, analog pots. There are $65.00 stomp boxes that have better components.

This only cements my preference for 5U gear even further. Before, I was giving certain makers a "break" for having shit-pots because I wrote it off as "well they're digital devices so encoders come with the territory". But now, they get no break from me.

BTW, just to get it said, that Novation I had used endless spin knobs .... call them what they must be called, but they sucked, wobbled, and were extremely easy to disturb. Encoders, pots, WHATEVER ... they blew chunks.

Huh ... so the 0-coast is using analog pots and they still feel like ass. What a crying shame. Yet one more mass produced item designed down to cost, rather than up to good engineering. Now THAT'S "resting on your laurels"!!!

seriously, i just don't get it

What gets me is that makers such as Make Money .... nope ... Make Noise read these forums, they read what we have to say, they must know what kind of feelings most people have for crap-ass wobblepots ... and yet....

d'oh!

I can understand why a place like Novation offers a $299 keyboard controller with crappy encoders ... it's obviously a cheap toy designed for those actually LOOKING for exactly that. But some of the other offerings by other makers that use such garbage in their designs ... all it does is damage their brand.

Oddly, my wife's Novation Mininova has really nice feeling ... um ... ~knobs~ (I'm loathe to call them pots or encoders, clearly I'm ignorant). In fact I quite enjoy using it (when she allows me) ... lol

Euro stuff. The "stomp box industry" of modular synths.

All Hail 5U!
we're not worthy


A $100,000 Buchla system would use the same pots...
mritenburg
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
starthief wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
By "more expensive" combined with "wobbly knobs" I'm guessing you're aiming at digital modules that use encoders. The "wobbly knobs" thing is mostly due to the use of less costly digital encoders. I really do not like "cheap" feeling encoders/wobbly knobs either, which prevents me from buying things such as the 0-Coast and other wobbly modules. But again, that goes back to the use of encoders rather than potentiometers, and digital designs use encoders for the most part. So it's more about a choice of digital vs analog.


Um, no. Encoders are those controls that can keep going infinitely in any direction, and have no particular setting that they point to at any given time, just incrementing/decrementing something in software. Most digital modules use analog pots and read them with a DAC, because that is cheaper than an encoder and often makes more sense interface-wise.

0-Coast uses analog pots and... doesn't read them with a DAC because those sections are not digital..
Then that's not giving Make Noise much credibility. The 0-Coast is then a $500 pile of crap. For that kind of money, it should at LEAST have decent, if not the best, analog pots. There are $65.00 stomp boxes that have better components.

This only cements my preference for 5U gear even further. Before, I was giving certain makers a "break" for having shit-pots because I wrote it off as "well they're digital devices so encoders come with the territory". But now, they get no break from me.

BTW, just to get it said, that Novation I had used endless spin knobs .... call them what they must be called, but they sucked, wobbled, and were extremely easy to disturb. Encoders, pots, WHATEVER ... they blew chunks.

Huh ... so the 0-coast is using analog pots and they still feel like ass. What a crying shame. Yet one more mass produced item designed down to cost, rather than up to good engineering. Now THAT'S "resting on your laurels"!!!

:despair:

What gets me is that makers such as Make Money .... nope ... Make Noise read these forums, they read what we have to say, they must know what kind of feelings most people have for crap-ass wobblepots ... and yet....

:doh:

I can understand why a place like Novation offers a $299 keyboard controller with crappy encoders ... it's obviously a cheap toy designed for those actually LOOKING for exactly that. But some of the other offerings by other makers that use such garbage in their designs ... all it does is damage their brand.

Oddly, my wife's Novation Mininova has really nice feeling ... um ... ~knobs~ (I'm loathe to call them pots or encoders, clearly I'm ignorant). In fact I quite enjoy using it (when she allows me) ... :lol:

Euro stuff. The "stomp box industry" of modular synths.

All Hail 5U!
:hail:


A $100,000 Buchla system would use the same pots...


Buchla 200e systems when first introduced (Back in 2004-2005) had high spec nylon stem pots that were rated for a minimum of 500,000 turns. The drawback is that the nylon stems would flex giving the impression that they were wobbly. Regardless of the fact that the mean time between failure was super high for those pots, people thought they were cheap. First impressions are everything and Buchla has not been able to shed that perception since (even though they switched to stiff stem pots some time ago).
Rex Coil 7
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
starthief wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
By "more expensive" combined with "wobbly knobs" I'm guessing you're aiming at digital modules that use encoders. The "wobbly knobs" thing is mostly due to the use of less costly digital encoders. I really do not like "cheap" feeling encoders/wobbly knobs either, which prevents me from buying things such as the 0-Coast and other wobbly modules. But again, that goes back to the use of encoders rather than potentiometers, and digital designs use encoders for the most part. So it's more about a choice of digital vs analog.


Um, no. Encoders are those controls that can keep going infinitely in any direction, and have no particular setting that they point to at any given time, just incrementing/decrementing something in software. Most digital modules use analog pots and read them with a DAC, because that is cheaper than an encoder and often makes more sense interface-wise.

0-Coast uses analog pots and... doesn't read them with a DAC because those sections are not digital..
Then that's not giving Make Noise much credibility. The 0-Coast is then a $500 pile of crap. For that kind of money, it should at LEAST have decent, if not the best, analog pots. There are $65.00 stomp boxes that have better components.

This only cements my preference for 5U gear even further. Before, I was giving certain makers a "break" for having shit-pots because I wrote it off as "well they're digital devices so encoders come with the territory". But now, they get no break from me.

BTW, just to get it said, that Novation I had used endless spin knobs .... call them what they must be called, but they sucked, wobbled, and were extremely easy to disturb. Encoders, pots, WHATEVER ... they blew chunks.

Huh ... so the 0-coast is using analog pots and they still feel like ass. What a crying shame. Yet one more mass produced item designed down to cost, rather than up to good engineering. Now THAT'S "resting on your laurels"!!!

seriously, i just don't get it

What gets me is that makers such as Make Money .... nope ... Make Noise read these forums, they read what we have to say, they must know what kind of feelings most people have for crap-ass wobblepots ... and yet....

d'oh!

I can understand why a place like Novation offers a $299 keyboard controller with crappy encoders ... it's obviously a cheap toy designed for those actually LOOKING for exactly that. But some of the other offerings by other makers that use such garbage in their designs ... all it does is damage their brand.

Oddly, my wife's Novation Mininova has really nice feeling ... um ... ~knobs~ (I'm loathe to call them pots or encoders, clearly I'm ignorant). In fact I quite enjoy using it (when she allows me) ... lol

Euro stuff. The "stomp box industry" of modular synths.

All Hail 5U!
we're not worthy


A $100,000 Buchla system would use the same pots...
There's no excuse for that. None whatsoever.

100 racks for a synth using poopy feeling pots? Ok ... whatever flicks yer thrill switch!

mritenburg wrote:
..... Regardless of the fact that the mean time between failure was super high for those pots, people thought they were cheap. First impressions are everything and Buchla has not been able to shed that perception since (even though they switched to stiff stem pots some time ago).
Badda bing.

5U rules. thumbs up
Rex Coil 7
Back to topic here .. ya never know ... Behringer just might have a module or three that really knocks it out of the park. That does happen from time to time. A company known to make designed-to-cost items sometimes has "that one thing" that they make that's super sicko.

And depending on the construction methods, there may be modules that can be used as a basis for some type of crazy cool modification, or one that be repaneled with another bunch of stuffs that makes it into that-great-thing.

It could go any direction. Or no direction and this whole issue turns into vapor. If I were a cash challenged developer with a great idea, I'd be v.e.r.y. cautious signing a deal with Behringer though. NDAs can be worked around, just as patents can, just as copyrights can. All it takes is one little change here, one little change there .... and you're VIOLATED!

With Behringer's record of being ... well ... second guessed (I'm being nice) ... I'd be very leery of handing over something I feel could be marketable, even with a stack of Non Disclosure Agreements running defense for me.

Have their latest efforts (Deep Mind, Neutron, Model D, et al) been around long enough to see how durable they are? I can't imagine that any Euro modules will be built any, if at all, better. So .......

seriously, i just don't get it
Kent
pre55ure wrote:
Trebbers wrote:
It seems weird to me too. Wonder if this is Behringer starting to move into contract manufacturing as a way to make make money on the sale of boutique products they aren't directly competing against.


From a manufacturers perspective this seems like the worst idea ever. I mean sure, who wouldn’t want to hand over all of the data necessary to create your product to a company that has been sued multiple times for copyright infringement ? The vast majority of modular companies dont have the money to bring a lawsuit against behringer assuming they dont hold up thier end of the bargain. What could go wrong there?


Uli probably wrote it in order to manipulate the mush-minded folk that require additional signals in order to justify purchasing from a company as ethically questionable as Behringer.
He’s very good at manipulating end-users. He built a large business on that model. He understands the basics of the psychology of human consumptive behavior very well at a base level.
dubonaire
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
wobbly knobs


Are usually because they are fixed to the PCB and not the front panel.
dubonaire
Kent wrote:
pre55ure wrote:
Trebbers wrote:
It seems weird to me too. Wonder if this is Behringer starting to move into contract manufacturing as a way to make make money on the sale of boutique products they aren't directly competing against.


From a manufacturers perspective this seems like the worst idea ever. I mean sure, who wouldn’t want to hand over all of the data necessary to create your product to a company that has been sued multiple times for copyright infringement ? The vast majority of modular companies dont have the money to bring a lawsuit against behringer assuming they dont hold up thier end of the bargain. What could go wrong there?


Uli probably wrote it in order to manipulate the mush-minded folk that require additional signals in order to justify purchasing from a company as ethically questionable as Behringer.
He’s very good at manipulating end-users. He built a large business on that model. He understands the basics of the psychology of human consumptive behavior very well at a base level.


Yep. Every move is calculated to appear benevolent, even down to the way he always describes his company as "our Tribe".
xenosapien
Kodama wrote:
xenosapien wrote:

I´m curious though:
Darkplace Manufacturing seems to have been offering that precise service for a while now... nobody´s complaining about that as far as I can tell...


In Portland OR, labor done by wigglers in this forum.

Besides the hit of cheap mass production to the market, the concern for me not being protectionism, but labor and environmental ethics.

Not to mention the possibility of direct "cloning" of smaller manufacturers.


thanks for clarifying!!

yeah, the labor ethics part is my one major concern with this as well... China is not exactly on a good path there...

but hey, CHEAP STUFF RIGHT?! narf.

I´d love to see how Behringer handles worker´s rights in their own factory... since it IS their own, they should be able to treat (and pay) their own workers a lot better than the ones in neighboring factory-villages...
Multi Grooves
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
[...]Totally agree .... Roger Arrick of Synthesizers.Com has always made himself available, even though he's running a large company and is ceaselessly designing new modules. The 5U offerings of today are answering the calls for greater functional density (without making them SO dense that they become less useful). Graham Hinton is another person that really makes himself available to his customers, and just as much so to his non-customers. Danjiel of Intellijel seems to be available as well. "Modular" is all about development and growth. As far as junk modules go .... dirt sinks, cream rises.


Graham's level of attention is PREMIUM. I've upgraded the first of what I hope will be more of my cases and before I'd spent a penny he took over an hour on the phone. Since I've bought it he's still on my case making sure all is well. Love his first principles approach.
dooj88
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:


Euro stuff. The "stomp box industry" of modular synths.

All Hail 5U!
we're not worthy


Badda bing.

5U rules. thumbs up


lol, love when these guys show up

you kids get off my lawn you kids get off my lawn you kids get off my lawn

lolspew

anyway, i'm interested to see how the industry will react with their release.. does this mean guitar center will have a eurorack section now?
starthief
dooj88 wrote:
Does this mean guitar center will have a eurorack section now?


Sweetwater sells Eurorack stuff.

Amazon sells Eurorack stuff.

Walmart.com sells Eurorack stuff.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
dooj88
starthief wrote:
dooj88 wrote:
Does this mean guitar center will have a eurorack section now?


Sweetwater sells Eurorack stuff.

Amazon sells Eurorack stuff.

Walmart.com sells Eurorack stuff.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


walmart... holy fuck... Dead Banana

but those are all online product offerings. i have a guitar center near me, there's no modular stores in dc/va/md/wva/de area
Entrainer
starthief wrote:

Walmart.com sells Eurorack stuff.


starthief
It's not like you can walk into a Wal-Mart in the middle of Wyoming and get a six-pack of Maths, but yeah. Kinda weird.

Guitar Center is almost the only music store we have here too. Which is sad, because if you set foot in the synth/keyboard room, all the employees suddenly have dire emergencies elsewhere. And usually all they have is three pianos, a couple of MIDI controllers, a Monotron, someobdy's used Alpha Juno with a missing key, and the 2013 version of some DAW at a 150% markup.
subliminal drew
I'm totally for this.
To me, it's the similar to the Korg Volca line or Squier guitars; changing the manufacturing processes and materials to save production costs gets music-making equipment into the hands of people who might have previously been financially unable to access it. Korg's Arp and MS20 reissues and Fender's Tele/Jazzmasters/etc. are all still selling fine, I might add.

So if Moog still hasn't made individuated Eurorack modules, why not let Behringer bridge the gap? (Bridge it further I mean; we're all indebted to Herr Doepfer). And obviously, like Doepfer, they aren't going to be for everyone; Moog & Buchla are going to continue to offer a complete package product (design, material, history/heritage, etc.) to whatever customer aspires to own them. Same will continue to be true for MakeNoise, Mutable, etc.; you can buy the full experience or you can take the affordable physical (total respect to VCV Rack, etc.) substitute from Behringer and get going in modular music.

As a sidenote, I came up in DIY/budget music scenes, and Behringer were there when I needed them, got me started making my own music. My Behringer multichannel mixer & my Behringer guitar pedals (budget clone versions of OOP Boss pedals that go for >$300 a pop) STILL WORK and I'm still using them.
appliancide
dooj88 wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:


Euro stuff. The "stomp box industry" of modular synths.

All Hail 5U!
we're not worthy


Badda bing.

5U rules. thumbs up


lol, love when these guys show up

you kids get off my lawn you kids get off my lawn you kids get off my lawn

lolspew


TheDegenerateElite
starthief wrote:
It's not like you can walk into a Wal-Mart in the middle of Wyoming and get a six-pack of Maths, but yeah. Kinda weird.

Guitar Center is almost the only music store we have here too. Which is sad, because if you set foot in the synth/keyboard room, all the employees suddenly have dire emergencies elsewhere. And usually all they have is three pianos, a couple of MIDI controllers, a Monotron, someobdy's used Alpha Juno with a missing key, and the 2013 version of some DAW at a 150% markup.


Shows what you know.

My local Wal-Mart is loaded with Eurorack and vintage Moog modulars. Right next to the Flamin' Hot Cheetos.
Entrainer
TheDegenerateElite wrote:

My local Wal-Mart is loaded with Eurorack and vintage Moog modulars. Right next to the Flamin' Hot Cheetos.


Mine's down the aisle for the tequila and whiskey, right next to the Sig Sauer M400s.

Mutable Elements is behind glass, but there's a button which says "Push Here to Try".

Sounds like this:

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