Behringer to introduce sub-100$ range of modules

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

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bemushroomed
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Post by bemushroomed » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:31 pm

Very nice. I like Uli, he comes off as a genuine synth nerd and unlike many bigger manufacturers he isn't afraid to visit forums and talk to people, ask them what they want etc.

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Post by Kodama » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:36 pm

bemushroomed wrote:Very nice. I like Uli, he comes off as a genuine synth nerd and unlike many bigger manufacturers he isn't afraid to visit forums and talk to people, ask them what they want etc.
Or sue them when he doesn't like the conversation? :cloud:

https://www.factmag.com/2018/06/20/behr ... ibel-case/

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bemushroomed
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Post by bemushroomed » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:48 pm

Kodama wrote:
bemushroomed wrote:Very nice. I like Uli, he comes off as a genuine synth nerd and unlike many bigger manufacturers he isn't afraid to visit forums and talk to people, ask them what they want etc.
Or sue them when he doesn't like the conversation? :cloud:

https://www.factmag.com/2018/06/20/behr ... ibel-case/
yeah that's pretty dumb though. seen so many of those stupid cases in the computer gaming industry for the last couple of years. These super large and rich business has their own layer team who handles these things per default. It certainly never looks good though. It's often as a precaution so that not someone else will sue in turn, to be first.. It's over my head most of the time why it even happens.
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Post by deftinwulf » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:48 pm

bemushroomed wrote:Very nice. I like Uli, he comes off as a genuine synth nerd and unlike many bigger manufacturers he isn't afraid to visit forums and talk to people, ask them what they want etc.
:banana:
Kodama wrote:Or sue them when he doesn't like the conversation? :cloud:

https://www.factmag.com/2018/06/20/behr ... ibel-case/
:sadbanana:

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Post by man_hands » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:05 pm

I'm excited to see a lower cost of entry into modular—I guess only time will tell if the modules deserve a spot in my rack, though.

Interested to see if Behringer will be offering complete systems, as well...and more interestingly, (hopefully) very inexpensive cases!

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Post by Shledge » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:37 pm

Kodama wrote:
bemushroomed wrote:Very nice. I like Uli, he comes off as a genuine synth nerd and unlike many bigger manufacturers he isn't afraid to visit forums and talk to people, ask them what they want etc.
Or sue them when he doesn't like the conversation? :cloud:

https://www.factmag.com/2018/06/20/behr ... ibel-case/
I wonder if there is more to the story than just picking 20 forum members that said negative stuff - after all it seems mostly tied to DSI. Plenty of people spew absolute bile directly at Behringer and they don't get sued, all of which is very visible - especially in gearslutz.

They're not a perfect company - in fact they got sued for making clones in the past, but it makes me wonder...

(btw you didn't answer my previous question)

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Post by Shledge » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:44 pm

For example - take it with a bit of salt, the 20 people were apparently chosen for their potential relation to DSI:

http://cdm.link/2018/06/behringer-respo ... gineering/

Whether you trust his word or not, but does it seem like it's deliberately targeting normal people, or an attempt to go against a competitor?

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Post by radin » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:54 pm

Think Uri is a nice guy and genuine synth nerd? He isn't. He is a shitstain. A wasp. A turd. Fuck him and fuck Behringer.



He sued Dave Smith - for lible - for having the nerve to point out - on a forum of all places 8-) that Behringer ripped off another companies design (which they clearly did). Guess what??? He also sued 20 users on gearslutz. He lost of course but...

Still think Uri is a good guy? He isn't. He's a shit stain. That is probably being generous. I rewrote this numerous times to tone it down

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Post by bemushroomed » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:12 pm

radin wrote: Still think Uri is a good guy? He isn't. He's a shit stain. That is probably being generous. I rewrote this numerous times to tone it down
We already went through this in the last few posts? But ok.. you hardly have all the details in this case, something like this also requires immense knowledge of how the law works.

Around two years ago i decided to follow a similar case in the gaming industry that seemed absolutely ridiculous to me, at first i joined the haters, i wondered what the hell was going on. This was before i read a very thorough article about how it actually works, why it happens and that the owners of these companies often even have no personal hand in it. It's all handled per default by their lawyer team to prevent scenario X, Y or Z. They have these people because these things can get very complex, costly and be a hell for the company if they don't know what to do. It's often precaution to prevent certain things (mostly it seems to have to do with getting sued themselves).

I very highly doubt you or anyone else (including me) knows more than their lawyers of what to do in a case like this. In artciles they always make it sound like its something personal, lol, it's not some childish grudge, that's not how it works at all.
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Post by Shledge » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:19 pm

I do find it funny though that people bring up this whole "ethics" argument when we obviously go to other companies with similar shady dealings and buy their products - Samsung, Apple, Microsoft etc. Even most Eurorack modules are possible thanks to exploitation of workers in China, when you consider the individual components/PCBs/cables etc. used. We live in the most privileged of countries purely down to exploitation of poorer parts of the world.

I'm aware Behringer is dodgy. In fact I was very sceptical of them for a long time, even when they released the DM12. I decided to get their Model D (because hey, if it broke then at least I spent fuck all, relatively speaking) and was pleasantly surprised. Many other people were too when it comes to their synths. It changed a lot of people's opinions on their products, so it's no wonder you'll get people who seem a little biased.

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Post by ckwjr » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:31 pm

Ya I don't think many people who like buying stuff in general are in a position to complain about Behringer's corporate ethics. The Neutron is pretty much the best gateway drug into eurorack ever invented. Learn all the basics save sequencing for $300 plus headphones. Best deal ever.

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Post by Keltie » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:33 pm

Shledge wrote:I do find it funny though that people bring up this whole "ethics" argument when we obviously go to other companies with similar shady dealings and buy their products - Samsung, Apple, Microsoft etc. Even most Eurorack modules are possible thanks to exploitation of workers in China, when you consider the individual components/PCBs/cables etc. used. We live in the most privileged of countries purely down to exploitation of poorer parts of the world.
This. I get why ppl are wary of Behringer, but actually, this is an issue for governments in those countries. If workers are being exploited that’s probably a labor law matter. It is also the case that the directors of any company have a legal responsibility to maximise value for shareholders. For a company with significant size, reach and volume, there is a clear argument that cheap overseas mass production fulfills that legal duty. I know...politics...and maybe this is all something we’d rather not think about, or wish were different, but this is the world we live in right? One that allows the vast majority of users on this forum to live a life of plenty, security, choice and non essential items such as... um....modular?

FWIW, if the modules work well, I’ll probably pick a couple up, alongside my doepfer, Ladik, MI, synth tech.... I don’t buy the argument that this is a euro apocalypse, although I wouldn’t be surprised if a small number of manufacturers find themselves squeezed, and have to change their offering, or possibly go under. That’s competition, and that’s capitalism, for better or worse....

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Post by Shledge » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:41 pm

Funniest post of the year: the one where somebody suggested that Doepfer has a patent on the eurorack format, and everyone uses it only by virtue of his tacit permission.
Dieter could try if he really wanted, even if it failed. Companies have done so in the past. But at least he seen sense from the start and welcomed competitors.

So it's not "open source", but it's not something that can really be enforced either.

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Post by Kodama » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:46 pm

Shledge wrote: (btw you didn't answer my previous question)
I don't owe you or anyone my time to come here and argue pedantics all day long. I have an answer, but at some point it just becomes diminishing returns to go back an forth on things like this online. If we were talking in person it would be different.

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Post by Shledge » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:49 pm

Kodama wrote:
Shledge wrote: (btw you didn't answer my previous question)
I don't owe you or anyone my time to come here and argue pedantics all day long. I have an answer, but at some point it just becomes diminishing returns to go back an forth on things like this online. If we were talking in person it would be different.
So you have no examples?

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Post by Kodama » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:01 pm

Shledge wrote:So you have no examples?
:hihi: Nice bait.

Depending on your level of boredom, we can negotiate financial arrangements if you want to continue arguing over PM?

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Post by dubonaire » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:27 pm

bemushroomed wrote:Very nice. I like Uli, he comes off as a genuine synth nerd and unlike many bigger manufacturers he isn't afraid to visit forums and talk to people, ask them what they want etc.
Has it ever occurred to you that whoever posts as Uli could be someone else in the company?

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Post by adam » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:31 pm

could be a bot

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Post by dubonaire » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:46 pm

Shledge wrote:I do find it funny though that people bring up this whole "ethics" argument when we obviously go to other companies with similar shady dealings and buy their products - Samsung, Apple, Microsoft etc. Even most Eurorack modules are possible thanks to exploitation of workers in China, when you consider the individual components/PCBs/cables etc. used. We live in the most privileged of countries purely down to exploitation of poorer parts of the world.
This is a fallacious position. You are saying if someone is a consumer of a product from a company that might have questionable ethics, that disqualifies them from criticisizing any other company. If I want to criticize Behringer on a forum, I first must not use a computer in order to do so, otherwise I'm a hypocrite. Nonsense. I reserve the right to criticize Apple even though I buy Apple products, same with Amazon.The logical conclusion of this argument is that no one can criticize anyone or anything because there is bound to be some sort of unethical exposure somewhere. And how can that make the world a better place? (I'm not suggesting criticizing Behringer on this forum will have any effect.)

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Post by Alliex » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:55 pm

bemushroomed wrote:I very highly doubt you or anyone else (including me) knows more than their lawyers of what to do in a case like this.
I'm not so sure! The suit was dismissed under anti-SLAPP laws, which is not very common. Perhaps their lawyers thought it was a worthy gamble given said frequency, but they could end up paying the legal fees for the defendants and costing Behringer a few hundred $k. I think it was a very poor call on their part that only cost them money (and, so far, their "competition") and probably some reputation among their core audience. Both of those are likely costs they can absorb, though, given the acquisitions they've made over the years.

I don't think I have strong feelings either way on these modules, at least not until more details are available.

ed: Electronic component manufacturing, especially the gathering of raw materials, is almost as depressing to read about as the mica mines that supply mica that's used in almost every makeup product that shimmers :(

ed2:
Funniest post of the year: the one where somebody suggested that Doepfer has a patent on the eurorack format, and everyone uses it only by virtue of his tacit permission.
I'm actually interested in seeing any Euro patents, especially older ones, that people come across, just for my own education. I ran a quick search and only came up with a handful of patents that would probably be grounds for rejecting anything after about 1970 trying to patent a modular synth.

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Post by Fallen_lassen » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:41 pm

Cheaper is not always better. Usually not imo.
And Behri is cheap.

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Post by stainers » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:01 pm

Why not post your ethical views here? - viewtopic.php?t=197682&highlight=

All these Behringer gripes and defences are extremely repetitive. Regardless of how important one thinks it, the theme is mostly off topic to the gear being discussed and makes the thread fairly useless for discussion and garnering information.

Surely that is why most of us are here, not just to be battered, and batter, with moral points.

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Post by Shledge » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:20 pm

dubonaire wrote: This is a fallacious position. You are saying if someone is a consumer of a product from a company that might have questionable ethics, that disqualifies them from criticisizing any other company. If I want to criticize Behringer on a forum, I first must not use a computer in order to do so, otherwise I'm a hypocrite. Nonsense. I reserve the right to criticize Apple even though I buy Apple products, same with Amazon.The logical conclusion of this argument is that no one can criticize anyone or anything because there is bound to be some sort of unethical exposure somewhere. And how can that make the world a better place? (I'm not suggesting criticizing Behringer on this forum will have any effect.)
No, I didn't say to not criticise them - criticism is obviously different from boycotting. I was pointing out the hypocrisy boycotting one company over "ethical concerns" while happily buying from others which are just as bad. If you are so overly concerned with ethics in such companies, either boycott of all of them to help make them change, or you don't bother.

Think of it like this - Morrisey claiming to be vegetarian and yet likes to wear leather. People who are against animal based products and yet wank over film photography. Being pro worker's rights but buying from companies like Amazon. It's the same line of hypocritical thought, and it's something we all fall into one way or another.

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Post by dubonaire » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:45 pm

Shledge wrote:
dubonaire wrote: This is a fallacious position. You are saying if someone is a consumer of a product from a company that might have questionable ethics, that disqualifies them from criticisizing any other company. If I want to criticize Behringer on a forum, I first must not use a computer in order to do so, otherwise I'm a hypocrite. Nonsense. I reserve the right to criticize Apple even though I buy Apple products, same with Amazon.The logical conclusion of this argument is that no one can criticize anyone or anything because there is bound to be some sort of unethical exposure somewhere. And how can that make the world a better place? (I'm not suggesting criticizing Behringer on this forum will have any effect.)
No, I didn't say to not criticise them - criticism is obviously different from boycotting. I was pointing out the hypocrisy boycotting one company over "ethical concerns" while happily buying from others which are just as bad. If you are so overly concerned with ethics in such companies, either boycott of all of them to help make them change, or you don't bother.

Think of it like this - Morrisey claiming to be vegetarian and yet likes to wear leather. People who are against animal based products and yet wank over film photography. Being pro worker's rights but buying from companies like Amazon. It's the same line of hypocritical thought, and it's something we all fall into one way or another.
I still don't agree. You are saying all or nothing, and that if you make some ethical choices but not all ethical choices that is hypocritical. It's not. It's better than making no ethical choices. Some products are essentially unavoidable. And even per company the company might be scoring high in some areas but low in other areas. For example Apple Park runs on 100% renewable energy. Apple has reduced its carbon emissions per product from 137kg to 90kg in six years.

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Post by coolshirtdotjpg » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:56 pm

Deleted, no point in engaging further
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