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Behringer to introduce sub-100$ range of modules
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 24, 25, 26  Next [all]
Author Behringer to introduce sub-100$ range of modules
UltraViolet
There seems to be more to that lawsuit than how it appears on the surface. If any of us, like Radin did, says something bad about Behringer on this forun then that is just free speech. However, on the other hand, if a competing company organizes a bunch of their employees to to go on this forum and launch an organized attack on Behringer and make it appear as though they are just random people then that isn't free speech. That seems more like it might be libel. Rightly or wrongly it would appear that Behringer's lawyers saw it that way.
radin
In order to have a case for libel the derogatory statement must to be false.

If I point out that Behringer is a shitstain company I'll win any lawsuit because this statement is so demonstrably true that any harm caused to Behringer would be as a result of them being a shitstain not my statement pointing out that they are a shit stain.

It's subtle. cool
radin
This doesn't mean you or anyone else shouldn't buy their products. They are obviously quite good and obviously a good value. I'm not pursuing their products myself and quite frankly there are so many more interesting companies and makers.
Shledge
dubonaire wrote:

I still don't agree. You are saying all or nothing, and that if you make some ethical choices but not all ethical choices that is hypocritical. It's not. It's better than making no ethical choices. Some products are essentially unavoidable. And even per company the company might be scoring high in some areas but low in other areas.


How is Amazon unavoidable? Apple? Samsung? They can get by without them or use better alternatives if someone is really that concerned. Considering your logic of "highs in some areas, low in others", which I often justify it myself in regards to such companies, why single out Behringer despite... obviously having some really good aspects (their synths)?

Quote:
For example Apple Park runs on 100% renewable energy. Apple has reduced its carbon emissions per product from 137kg to 90kg in six years.


And yet install suicide nets in their Chinese factories, actively enforce anti-consumer practices, actively avoid tax and accountability etc. Don't be fooled into thinking a trillion dollar multi-national corporation actually care about ethics. Obviously I don't boycott them, owning a macbook myself for work, but I am definitely very critical of their practices.
Shledge
radin wrote:
This doesn't mean you or anyone else shouldn't buy their products. They are obviously quite good and obviously a good value. I'm not pursuing their products myself and quite frankly there are so many more interesting companies and makers.


Not here to tell you how to spend your money, but at least quit the faux-moral act.
dubonaire
Shledge wrote:
dubonaire wrote:

I still don't agree. You are saying all or nothing, and that if you make some ethical choices but not all ethical choices that is hypocritical. It's not. It's better than making no ethical choices. Some products are essentially unavoidable. And even per company the company might be scoring high in some areas but low in other areas.


How is Amazon unavoidable? Apple? Samsung? They can get by without them or use better alternatives if someone is really that concerned. Considering your logic of "highs in some areas, low in others", which I often justify it myself in regards to such companies, why single out Behringer despite... obviously having some really good aspects (their synths)?

Quote:
For example Apple Park runs on 100% renewable energy. Apple has reduced its carbon emissions per product from 137kg to 90kg in six years.


And yet install suicide nets in their Chinese factories, actively enforce anti-consumer practices, actively avoid tax and accountability etc. Don't be fooled into thinking a trillion dollar multi-national corporation actually care about ethics. Obviously I don't boycott them, owning a macbook myself for work, but I am definitely very critical of their practices.


Your last point is exactly what I am saying.

By the way, suicide in China is sadly extremely prevalent and it has long cultural history. It's not peculiar to Apple. China has had the highest suicide rate in the world, but the increasing middle class, of which factory working is a factor is resulting in reductions.

I'm comfortable with cheap labour supply chains as long as the overall standard of living is increasing. I've been to these factories in China and seen them first hand. I don't have a big issue with Behringer using cheap labour, But in terms of singling out Berhinger - this is a modular forum, not a mobile phone forum. And for me it's the sum of the parts with Berhinger, but I've said my piece on Behringer before and don't want to repeat myself.

I don't know about you, but I need a refrigerator. I also need a computer. And living in a developing country, I don't have great access to local vendors. Ordering online is a challenge, so Kindle is actually very important to me and so I use Amazon, as much as I don't like what I hear about the working conditions.

I think you have a point when people are obviously virtue signalling, but I think criticizing poor ethics is a fundamental right for any consumer.
Shledge
Quote:
I think you have a point when people are obviously virtue signalling, but I think criticizing poor ethics is a fundamental right for any consumer.


Then we actually are in agreement. I'll buy Chinese made stuff as much as the next guy but I'm still critical of the practices involved.
dubonaire
Shledge wrote:
Quote:
I think you have a point when people are obviously virtue signalling, but I think criticizing poor ethics is a fundamental right for any consumer.


Then we actually are in agreement. I'll buy Chinese made stuff as much as the next guy but I'm still critical of the practices involved.


Yes I think we are.
Nightly Closures
For accuracy’s sake, China has a lower suicide rate than the USA.
mskala
Nightly Closures wrote:
For accuracy’s sake, China has a lower suicide rate than the USA.


Seems unlikely that trustworthy statistics are available.
coolshirtdotjpg
China's suicide rate, or the standard of living in china isn't really the concern with apple products, at the very least it's a pretty shallow critique. I won't say more because it will be deemed political and the thread will be locked.

I'd rather throw money at companies I like and know (at least on the internet) personally, than behringer, but I'm also not opposed to buying their ultra cheap stuff used once it's disposed of by people just jumping in for the heck of it and getting bored.
dubonaire
Nightly Closures wrote:
For accuracy’s sake, China has a lower suicide rate than the USA.


Please read my post carefully.

Quote:
China has had the highest suicide rate in the world, but the increasing middle class, of which factory working is a factor is resulting in reductions.


Confucianism elevates death above failure to follow certain values, so there is a cultural element to suicide in China. Also China's absolute number of suicides is high due to the large population, and factory worker suicides receive a lot of publicity. Whether China's official statistics can be trusted is a consideration, but the point I'm making is just because workers commit suicide at a factory doesn't prove a causal link. Jumping seems to be a particularly popular method in China - just google it.
ZenitSar
Just a couple of cents from my experience about made in China products...

They can make great stuff and they can make crap. That all depends on the company that is hiring them to make stuff and what they are requesting. Most business do biz in China because they want stuff cheap. That is not China, nor the Chinese peoples fault. They are just trying to make their way in the world like everybody else. I've been there to see it myself.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
ZenitSar wrote:
Just a couple of cents from my experience about made in China products...

They can make great stuff and they can make crap. That all depends on the company that is hiring them to make stuff and what they are requesting. Most business do biz in China because they want stuff cheap. That is not China, nor the Chinese peoples fault. They are just trying to make their way in the world like everybody else. I've been there to see it myself.


I have an absolutely beautiful and very well built and playable guitar, a Washburn J-7, that was made in China. I'd put that guitar up against any other mass-produced jazz box.

This is my guitar, the actual one (I bought it from Steve not long after his video was made). Just look at this beauty (and it sounds pretty great too).

radin
Sorry I'm confused. Is Behringer making sub $100 modular?
UltraViolet
The thread does seem to have gotten off track. Maybe we should get back to the original subject of Eurorack modules for less that $100.

I think it will be a good thing. It will make starting out in modular affordable for more people. Some of those new people will go on to buy more expensive modules from other manufacturers. Some sales will be lost to the new cheap modules. The two effects will offset each other at least to some degree, so I don't see this as the Herald of Doom for current Eurorack makers. We might even get something new like the Neutron filter in a module.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
UltraViolet wrote:
The thread does seem to have gotten off track. Maybe we should get back to the original subject of Eurorack modules for less that $100.

I think it will be a good thing. It will make starting out in modular affordable for more people. Some of those new people will go on to buy more expensive modules from other manufacturers. Some sales will be lost to the new cheap modules. The two effects will offset each other at least to some degree, so I don't see this as the Herald of Doom for current Eurorack makers. We might even get something new like the Neutron filter in a module.


I think it will be a good thing for everybody except the other modular makers, many of whom will probably struggle to survive as a result. Because boutique makers can't make this stuff for $100 per module.
euromorcego
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:

I think it will be a good thing for everybody except the other modular makers, many of whom will probably struggle to survive as a result. Because boutique makers can't make this stuff for $100 per module.

I think it will be a good thing for everybody except other modular makers that make low cost modules. I do not see these Behringer modules really competing with companies like Mutable, Intellijel, MakeNoise. Also not with other boutique makers (expensive boutique guitar pedals sell just fine, despite plenty of clones for $19). I guess it will be mostly bad for companies like doepfer who now serve a bit as the gateway drug ... and they are also more likely to be available at mainstream music stores competing for the same audience. All others do not need to worry.
diller
Nightly Closures wrote:
For accuracy’s sake, China has a lower suicide rate than the USA.


Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward also resulted in the murders of some 45,000,000 Chinese people. I'd think the last couple generations have a way different outlook on life than people living in the USA.
flashheart
euromorcego wrote:
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:

I think it will be a good thing for everybody except the other modular makers, many of whom will probably struggle to survive as a result. Because boutique makers can't make this stuff for $100 per module.

I think it will be a good thing for everybody except other modular makers that make low cost modules. I do not see these Behringer modules really competing with companies like Mutable, Intellijel, MakeNoise. Also not with other boutique makers (expensive boutique guitar pedals sell just fine, despite plenty of clones for $19). I guess it will be mostly bad for companies like doepfer who now serve a bit as the gateway drug ... and they are also more likely to be available at mainstream music stores competing for the same audience. All others do not need to worry.

I think Dr Etch & Sketch was referring to ALL module makers as boutique in this case. Boutique as in small which pretty much describes most makers (which tend to be 1 or 2 man shops).
If it's only bad for Doepfer I guess that's OK? seriously, i just don't get it Doepfer make plenty of unique (especially those dull utilities) modules no one else does - that'd be a loss to the modular community if it happened.

Why are Boutique pedals expensive? Because the small guys can't compete in price with the major brands.

Mutable, Intellijel & Makenoise may be fine but the expectation of the newer customers will be lower prices for everything. Reading GS it seems that pretty much every synth maker apart from Behringer is a 'rip-off merchant'.
1986Bowler
I would love to get into true modular- at this point, I've got the Neutron and the Model D because they were affordable.

It would be awesome for Behringer to make the line. i'm sure there's enough room for everybody.
nios
Judging from what Roland, Moog and DSI/Sequential have gotten out of entering the Eurorack market in terms of dominance/influence, I don't think Behringer is going to crush everything instantly. It'll appeal on price mostly, that and people who wanted a Euro System 100M but, very much somehow, never got Roland/Malekko's System 500 gear that's been kicking around for years and often bins hard in the aftermarket. It'll likely be used as a starter framework for many in the future, but may not displace a lot of other things far, far ahead of the capabilities of the System 100M.

Behringer creations already have been making some impact in the form of Neutron, Model D etc, able to be dropped into a rack, and head to head what you get for that money already is way more "don't even go there" comparing the cost per function (x3 oscs, mixer, filter, envelope, MIDI in..) than you would for these new standalone Euro modules being what, $100 a pop each. In doing so they already somewhat undercut possible strategies that could have actually made some serious competitive strain... who would want that new filter in the Neutron standalone for $100 when you can just buy a whole entire Neutron in the 200s. So that filter would have to be like $30 or something. Would that even be worth Behriger's time and logistics, vs the market? Something tells me, not really. This dilemma, of aiming the big guns of mass production at a very fickle and market, where people often won't be impressed with a product purely because it's lacking in innovation and not care much about price? It's probably why no actual big company has made inroads yet, failing to impress vs the native "big" companies of 1-15 people making extremely innovative/quirky things.

Looking at how the hot ticket items are drawn naturally off extremely efficient/creative/out-there/synergistic ideas, for Behringer to thrive here, rather than merely serve as future modular peoples' stepping stone to eventually supplement/replace with famous/exotic/interesting stuff, then they will need to make totally unique modules, or adapt things that haven't really been done yet, which is not easy when a lot of the most famous synth oscs/filters ever already have been adapted. Things that use extremely rare chips are still going to be just as unfeasible for Behringer to do as it has been for anyone else, for example Synton Syrinx filters etc. If they go down the route of brute force multiplying what they've done "look, we have a module here with 14 (System 100 derived) VCAs in 16 HP for $90, you're not going to turn THIS down, now, are you", even if they become competitive in that route then what they'll do is make the other manufacturers drift further away from basic functions and develop even more exotic stuff, because "you will never get this any other way besides with us" will become the main feature because we all just know some strategies are just not going to be able to be able to be matched.

Something else to consider is that, possibly, the market will grow dramatically with people drawn to the format mostly because they just heard that Behringer's System 100M is a ridiculous bargain, not because they cared much or even heard of the System 100M. People who weren't ever going to buy from Euro manufacturers without that gateway from Behringer, will show up in the thousands, and they will look and see all the way-way-cooler modules that exist outside of it, and buy things, non-Behringer things. Hopefully.
ckwjr
Agreed it may not be enough to compete on the single dimension of price when there are already a few manufacturers competing on two dimensions: price and size. Ladik has its range of sub $100 4hp and slightly bigger modules. 2hp has its slightly more expensive but still not high-priced products.

I can fill 84 hp with five Behringer modules or buy 4 2hp modules or 5 or 6 Ladik modules with plenty of room leftover for more. On a beginner budget, I'd far prefer going the price/size route instead of just price, although others may prefer the roomier knobs/sliders.
naos
behringer should make the boring stuff like powered cases, and make them obscenely cheap. then I can put some decent modules in it.
mskala
ckwjr wrote:
Agreed it may not be enough to compete on the single dimension of price when there are already a few manufacturers competing on two dimensions: price and size. Ladik has its range of sub $100 4hp and slightly bigger modules. 2hp has its slightly more expensive but still not high-priced products.


What's it going to take to buck the trend of everyone wanting smaller and smaller modules? Maybe better cases?
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