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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

J150 (q150 repanel) On Sale
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> 5U Format Modules Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author J150 (q150 repanel) On Sale
Jsharpphoto
In case you missed it on the “1u ladder filter thread” my conversion panel for the q150 is on sale. In the last week, I have almost sold out of them, but I still have about 5 left.

http://synthpanels.bigcartel.com/product/j150-trumansburg-vcf-panel
hsosdrum
If anyone needs encouragement, I received my kit on Monday and the panel and other parts all look absolutely top-notch.

I'm planning on doing the conversion this coming weekend and after viewing Jeremy's excellent instruction video (a link is on his web page for the J150) it should be easy-peasy!

I'll post pics when I get it all done.
josaka
Mine just arrived in UK... ! thanks J !
RussiaZero23
Just ordered last night.
Jsharpphoto
josaka wrote:
Mine just arrived in UK... ! thanks J !


Damn! That was fast!
hsosdrum
I finished my conversion this evening and it went without a hitch.*

The new panel looks great to the left of my other 3 "big-knob" filters:



*Note that I installed the Input #1 level pot in place of the Input #2 jack. Because this places the pot very close to the edge of the panel, if you do this mod you need to take care that the metal shell of the pot doesn't come in contact with the panel's flange. If it does make contact it will short the input and you'll get no sound through the filter except for resonance oscillation. It took a bit of troubleshooting before I figured this out.

Hats off to Jeremy for making this great conversion available!
Rex Coil 7
hsosdrum wrote:
*Note that I installed the Input #1 level pot in place of the Input #2 jack. Because this places the pot very close to the edge of the panel, if you do this mod you need to take care that the metal shell of the pot doesn't come in contact with the panel's flange. If it does make contact it will short the input and you'll get no sound through the filter except for resonance oscillation. It took a bit of troubleshooting before I figured this out.

Hats off to Jeremy for making this great conversion available!
Ok hold up, this ain't right. I think I must be reading this wrong or something, please be patient here as I walk through this.

So if the metal body of the pot contacts the panel flange, it will "short out" and you will get no audio output, sans the resonance? That's not .. uhm ... right (I really don't mean to seem insulting here). The metal casing of the pot is already shorted to the panel when it is installed on the panel .... the threaded barrel that the nut screws on to is mechanically connected to the metal casing ..... the entire outside shell of the pot is already in full mechanical contact with the panel. Which in turn means the casing is already electrically connected to ground (via the panel to the jacks' sleeve barrels, then through the "sleeve" wires from each jack to the PCB, and on out to the 0-volt-slash-ground due to the manner which the Dot Com modules, power cables, and power/grounding system are designed). You should be able to see continuity with your meter between the potentiometer's body and the metal panel when the pot is installed on the panel.

Just taking a guess at it here .... could it be you meant to say that one of the pot's solder terminals made contact with the panel flange?

Because that situation could absolutely send the signal straight to ground and cause silence. But just the pot's metal casing contacting the panel will not, as it is supposed to be touching the panel, it is designed that way.

To better illustrate this, here's an Alpha B100K removed from my own Dot Com Q150. The metal body/casing is attached to the cast threaded bushing that is in full contact with the panel.

However, the solder terminals are not.





You may have been able to loosen the pot's nut, turned the pot so the solder terminals cleared the panel flange a little, and tightened the pot's nut and the problem would have gone away. seriously, i just don't get it

thumbs up

EDIT: Man .... your filter bank is LIT!!!! What a killa combo of wicked sick filters!
Jsharpphoto
I think he meant the prongs/legs of the potentiometer touching the panel edge.
hsosdrum
Jsharpphoto wrote:
I think he meant the prongs/legs of the potentiometer touching the panel edge.


I thought I had made sure that none of the electrical connections was anywhere near the panel edge (or anywhere else where they could contact anything). It was the metal body of the Alpha pot that was in contact with the panel edge. When I scooted the pot in the mounting hole so the body no longer contacted the panel edge the input signal came through the filter.

I originally troubleshot this by disconnecting the pot and using one of the jumpers Jeremy supplies with the J150 kit in its place across pins 1 and 2. Doing this also allowed the input signal through the filter, so I figured that the problem was the potentiometer. I noticed the metal body in contact with the panel edge (didn't notice any contact on the electrical connections) so I moved the pot just enough so it no longer contacted the panel. At that point the input signal returned and the pot functioned properly.

Maybe the actual problem was indeed that one of the electrical contacts was shorting somewhere I didn't notice and moving the pot cured that. (I'm not removing the filter to double-check — if it ain't broke any longer...) All I know is that everything now works and the filter looks great in 1U!
Dave Peck
hsosdrum wrote:
I finished my conversion this evening and it went without a hitch.*

The new panel looks great to the left of my other 3 "big-knob" filters:



That's quite the collection of single-width filters!

I have a couple of Q150 filters and I may be interested in repaneling at least one of them in this slim panel. But I have never had the opportunity to compare the sound of the Q150 to the Grove G294A. How would you compare the sound of these two filters?
Rex Coil 7
hsosdrum wrote:
Jsharpphoto wrote:
I think he meant the prongs/legs of the potentiometer touching the panel edge.


I thought I had made sure that none of the electrical connections was anywhere near the panel edge (or anywhere else where they could contact anything). It was the metal body of the Alpha pot that was in contact with the panel edge. When I scooted the pot in the mounting hole so the body no longer contacted the panel edge the input signal came through the filter.

I originally troubleshot this by disconnecting the pot and using one of the jumpers Jeremy supplies with the J150 kit in its place across pins 1 and 2. Doing this also allowed the input signal through the filter, so I figured that the problem was the potentiometer. I noticed the metal body in contact with the panel edge (didn't notice any contact on the electrical connections) so I moved the pot just enough so it no longer contacted the panel. At that point the input signal returned and the pot functioned properly.

Maybe the actual problem was indeed that one of the electrical contacts was shorting somewhere I didn't notice and moving the pot cured that. (I'm not removing the filter to double-check — if it ain't broke any longer...) All I know is that everything now works and the filter looks great in 1U!
Huh ... that's just super weird .... because of the reasons I already presented (the case being in contact with the panel through the cast threaded portion).

It may even be one of those MADDENING "intermittent failures" that bug the hell out of you until the pot actually fails for good (perhaps wiper shorting to ground, or a solder ball that found it's way inside of the pot's workings ... or ... or ... or). Fortunately, if it does crap out, Dot Com pots are so bloody simple to replace it won't take you but a few minutes to replace it. Might not hurt to add one or three to your next Dot Com order (??).... they're like $6 bucks with the pigtail included and already soldered to the pot.

Well, like you said .... it's done, it works, screw it, call it GOOD!!!!!!!!! Either way it's operating now ... sooooo .... yup! Odder things have happened!

thumbs up
hsosdrum
Dave Peck wrote:
hsosdrum wrote:
I finished my conversion this evening and it went without a hitch.*

The new panel looks great to the left of my other 3 "big-knob" filters:



That's quite the collection of single-width filters!

I have a couple of Q150 filters and I may be interested in repaneling at least one of them in this slim panel. But I have never had the opportunity to compare the sound of the Q150 to the Grove G294A. How would you compare the sound of these two filters?


Well, I've been using each filter in a different dedicated voice since I got the Grove and only did a small amount of head-to-head comparing when I first added it a month ago.

My sonic impression is that the Grove is a bit cleaner and brighter sounding than the Q150. The Q150 sounds a little thicker and 'dirtier' (in a good, 'old Moog' way). The Grove has the 3-position Frequency Range switch like the Moog 904A, and this adds versatility to the sound, changing the cutoff control's audible effect. Plus, the cutoff and resonance controls interact differently in each of the 3 switch positions.

I have my Q150 set up in a patch that duplicates Keith Emerson's sound for his "Lucky Man" solo. When I first got the Grove filter I substituted it for the Q150 in that patch and it was pretty much a sonic match except that I couldn't get the resonance control to provide the long resonance sweeps that Emerson plays at the end of the solo. With the Q150 all I have to do is dial the resonance up from around 6.5 to 8 and each time I play the low D at the end of the solo the resonance sweeps just like in the record, but I couldn't get the Grove filter to behave in a similar way. Maybe this was due to my unfamiliarity with it at the time. I'm currently using the Grove in a patch of a different Emerson sound — his solo at the beginning of "The Sage" from Pictures at an Exhibition. The Grove reproduces that sound 100% perfectly.

I'm really glad I have both the J150 and the Grove 294a. I think it's definitely a bigger "bag of tricks" than 2 Q150s.
Rex Coil 7
This ^ ..... that there is some really interesting stuff! cool
Dave Peck
Well that IS interesting! I'm a bit surprised to learn the Q150 is the darker sounding of the two filters. Thanks!
hsosdrum
Dave Peck wrote:
Well that IS interesting! I'm a bit surprised to learn the Q150 is the darker sounding of the two filters. Thanks!


Don't take my impression of the sonics as gospel. Everyone hears differently and I always advise that people come to their own conclusions about sound by listening. I bought the Grove filter after having heard it only in this demo video that JLR posted (which isn't about the Grove filter per se).

OWGWAMSWYTRBBAD

I really didn't know what the Grove sounded like until I got it. (I WISH I could get some of the sounds JLR gets in that video — everything in it sounds so great, and I still have so much to learn. we're not worthy ) I just know that I wanted a second ladder filter and figured that two different filters would give me more options than two identical filters.

If anything, getting the Grove emphasized to me just how good Roger's Q150 is. I sure like having both of them side-by-side. love
josaka
..you got my grove order.. ! smile I now also have the 1u J150 and 917s.. (they actually sound pretty similar..) the Q is different with 917.. it self oscillates at lower levels and has a different tone/peak (shame there is no volume compensation on the Moon) .. I use these filters on the moog clone voice.. will be joined by a corsynth at some point..
JohnLRice
hsosdrum wrote:
I bought the Grove filter after having heard it only in this demo video that JLR posted (which isn't about the Grove filter per se).

OWGWAMSWYTRBBAD

I really didn't know what the Grove sounded like until I got it. (I WISH I could get some of the sounds JLR gets in that video — everything in it sounds so great, and I still have so much to learn. we're not worthy )
Thanks for the kind words! SlayerBadger! I'd be happy to answer any questions about it if you think it would be helpful.
hsosdrum
JohnLRice wrote:
hsosdrum wrote:
I bought the Grove filter after having heard it only in this demo video that JLR posted (which isn't about the Grove filter per se).

OWGWAMSWYTRBBAD

I really didn't know what the Grove sounded like until I got it. (I WISH I could get some of the sounds JLR gets in that video — everything in it sounds so great, and I still have so much to learn. we're not worthy )
Thanks for the kind words! SlayerBadger! I'd be happy to answer any questions about it if you think it would be helpful.


Thanks, John! I'll take another few looks at the video and PM you with any questions. thumbs up
Ranxerox
Having a little trouble with mine...

I don't get any sound unless I short the pins on one of the TL074 chips with my fingertip. Then the sound comes through intermittently until I remove my finger... I tried swapping the TL074 in question for a new chip, but it made no difference.

I'm guessing the issue is to do with grounding between something and something else, but I have no idea what...

-None of the legs of the sockets or pots are touching anything else (I made doubly sure of this).
-The metal washers for the jacks and pots are present and accounted for and in the right places.

At this stage I'm starting to think it could be the socket on the TL074 chip that has spontaneously developed a dry solder connection to the PCB? Maybe removal from the old Q150 panel torqued the PCB somehow... hmmm.....
josaka
jumpers ?
Ranxerox
Jumpers are all set as per the instructions... There's two which need to be placed across the input volume control pins, which I've set as per the video hmmm.....
Rex Coil 7
Ranxerox wrote:
Jumpers are all set as per the instructions... There's two which need to be placed across the input volume control pins, which I've set as per the video hmmm.....
Remove and replace the slope jumpers in the locations set at the factory. When you were handling the PCB during the panel swap, you may have bumped one of those slope jumpers. Over time, a little itty bit of corrosion can occur on pins for jumpers that are rarely (if ever) used .... ones that stay in the exact same place for years. If there is/was abit of crud-ola forming on the jumper pins, and you disturbed any of said jumpers during handling, one (more?) of the jumpers may not be making full electrical contact now. So, removing and replacing them (maybe once or twice) .... ONE AT A TIME so you don't get them replaced in the incorrect spots .... can essentially wipe the pins and the jumpers clean of any shmootz.

Also, triple check the connections where the pots/jacks connect to the PCB, especially the ones you had to deal with when you did the panel conversion. It's fairly easy to place them across a couple of pins where they shouldn't be. Such as when inserting a ~pot~ connector on a ~pot~ header on the PCB, it's not difficult to accidentally place the 3 pin connector on to two ~pot~ pins and one jack pin.

Try "flicking" a finger at all of the PCB connectors while listening, to see if the signal comes/goes when you "flick" a finger at any one board connector. If you find one that is responding to your "flicking", remove it and replace it to ~wipe off~ any goopification that may have formed over time.

So look carefully for something along those lines, prior to busting out the soldering pen.

thumbs up
hsosdrum
Ranxerox wrote:
Having a little trouble with mine...

I don't get any sound unless I short the pins on one of the TL074 chips with my fingertip. Then the sound comes through intermittently until I remove my finger... I tried swapping the TL074 in question for a new chip, but it made no difference.

I'm guessing the issue is to do with grounding between something and something else, but I have no idea what...

-None of the legs of the sockets or pots are touching anything else (I made doubly sure of this).
-The metal washers for the jacks and pots are present and accounted for and in the right places.

At this stage I'm starting to think it could be the socket on the TL074 chip that has spontaneously developed a dry solder connection to the PCB? Maybe removal from the old Q150 panel torqued the PCB somehow... hmmm.....


Ranxerox: Did you ever get this sussed-out? My issue was definitely caused by my installing the volume pot for Input 1 in place of Input 2, because the audio returned when I disconnected the pot's connector from the PCB and replaced it with one of the jumpers. Nudging the pot ever so slightly in the mounting hole cured the problem and my 1U filter's been working great for the past few weeks.

The fact that replacing the IC doesn't solve your problem but manually shorting the pins does restore sound makes me wonder if it could be an intermittent trace in the PCB that was held together when the board was mounted in the 2U panel but is allowed to separate when mounted on the 1U panel. (The PCB in my Q150 was screwed in very tightly at the factory—it took a lot of torque to get those screws out.)
Ranxerox
I haven't had a chance to look at it this week, but I will have a go at the weekend. Numerous checks revealed no transposed connections to the pcb, but it could be a failure of one of the washers to establish electrical contact with the panel - perhaps jiggling the connectors and pots in their mounting holes might work as you suggest.

I'm pretty sure none of the prongs, flanges and other exposed bits of metal on the pots and connectors, are touching anything they're not supposed to. But it has occurred to me to line parts of the panel interior with electrical tape just to be sure. Could still be a PCB issue though...
Rex Coil 7
Ranxerox wrote:
I haven't had a chance to look at it this week, but I will have a go at the weekend. Numerous checks revealed no transposed connections to the pcb, but it could be a failure of one of the washers to establish electrical contact with the panel - perhaps jiggling the connectors and pots in their mounting holes might work as you suggest.

I'm pretty sure none of the prongs, flanges and other exposed bits of metal on the pots and connectors, are touching anything they're not supposed to. But it has occurred to me to line parts of the panel interior with electrical tape just to be sure. Could still be a PCB issue though...
Well, it won't be anything to do with one of the jacks' or pots' flat washers not making contact with the panel, nor will it be a loose nut. You can actually cut off all of the sleeve connection wires from the jacks and the module will still operate fine (think about how modules converted to banana jacks still work even though there are no ground wires going from the jacks to the PCB). And pots will still work even if they are removed from the panel and freely dangling so they are making no contact with the panel but are still connected to the PCB. You could actually remove the pots from the panel, but leave them attached to the PCB via their connectors and everything will still work fine.

The ONLY two things (in regards to a pot) that could create a problem is if a pot is somehow faulty and shorting to ground (such as some renegade ball of solder running around loose inside of the pot ... or a broken wiper that is making/breaking a connection to the pot body ... that's what I mean when I say "pot shorting to ground") or if one of the actual solder terminals are touching the panel. Keep in mind that the aluminum standoffs that the PCB mechanically mounts on are essentially a part of the panel, so also make certain that the pots' solder terminals aren't making contact with any of the stand offs.

In regards to the jacks, you could remove the shield wire (also known as the "ground" wires), and allow the jack to dangle from the panel without it touching the panel at all, and the module will still work.

Shield wires on jacks are their to create a safety aspect, and also to deal with connecting all of the module panels together using the shield wires of patch cables. This is a safety issue more than an operational issue. That is why certain modules that use fully insulated shields (those jacks that have plastic threaded barrels, such as Doepfer) still work. It isn't as SAFE, but it will operate. Think of modules where people have converted them to banana connectors ... banana jacks use no shield wires, and yet the module still works fine. The shield wires on jacks are used to connect module panels together to help with creating a safety net (the panels need to be grounded in case there is a terrible fault in the power supply ... if that were to occur the high voltage from the mains needs a place to connect to "Earth" ... if the panels are not connected together then it is possible the mains voltage will use YOU as a ground connection to Earth, instead of flowing from the panel to ground via shield wires). Please keep in mind my explanation of this is very short and generalized for the sake of being brief.

The body of the pots may also be in full contact with any part of the panel and/or standoffs, in fact, they already are when they are installed. It is only the solder terminals of each pot that must be kept from contacting the panel or standoffs, not the body of the pot. The body of the pots may either be in full contact with any part of the panel, or in no contact with any part of the panel ... it makes absolutely no difference.

I'm not trying to contradict anyone (or act like some know-it-all-dick), I am attempting to save you time. Your problem is clearly some sort of intermittent connection, either on the PCB itself, or one of the wires in one of the header connectors is making/breaking. But it is not a flat washer on a pot or jack, nor a loose nut, nor is it the body of one of the pots touching the panel or standoff that is creating your troubles. So there is no point in chasing that particular problem. As I said, you could remove jacks and allow them to dangle freely from the panel, insert a plug, and all would still work. Same with the pots, they could be loosed from the panel and dangle freely and everything will still work just fine. And the bodies of the pots may make contact with the panel or standoffs, since they already do when they're installed.

The following tests are designed to eliminate everything as a suspected problem, except the circuit board. So if everything in the following tests prove to be no problem, then we know it is a PCB issue since everything except the PCB has been removed from all doubt. It's a way of narrowing the problem down to a circuit board problem without actually testing the circuit board:

** Try "flicking" you finger at each PCB connector, observe the results. If you hear a problem, it could be the wires inside of the white connector .. OR .. it could be a problem on the PCB where the header is soldered to the PCB (bad traces, bad solder joint).

** Try moving wires right where they disappear into the white connectors that connect the pots/jacks to the PCB, observe the results. Same as above, if the trouble starts it might be the wires inside of the white connectors not properly making connection with the contacts inside of the white connector.

** Try using the eraser end of a pencil and tap and/or push on various components on the PCB, observe the results.

** Try "tapping" on various components on the PCB with the eraser end of a pencil, observe the results.

** Try sortof stirring up the "wire spaghetti" with the eraser end of a pencil, observe the results. This could reveal a bad connection at the white connector, or a poorly soldered joint at the controls (pot solder terminals or jack solder terminals). Remember, it won't have anything to do with the shield wires or their soldered connections at the jack.

If all of these troubleshooting tests come up with zero results, then the problem is very likely on the circuit board itself in the form of a bad part or trouble with one or more of the traces. If that is the case, I would fully suggest reassembling the module into it's stock panel (just as it came from Dot Com) and sending it to Roger. He will not accept modified modules or modules that have been repaneled (with the only exceptions being repanels from his own factory, such as the Q107A). He will also not accept a bare PCB that has been removed from the module. I have asked him about this, and that is what he told me.

But a loose pot nut, or loose jack nut, will not create this problem. Nor will a pot's body touching the panel or standoff.

Again, just trying to save you some time and frustration as you attempt to troubleshoot this issue. The t-shooting tests I suggested won't take anymore than three to five minutes. I was a repair technician for over 25 years, what I have suggested is exactly how I would go about it myself. That doesn't make me "automatically correct", it just means I've been around this type of problem many times as a professional troubleshooter.

Not bragging, just trying to move this process forward and presenting my previous experience to reassure you that I'm not just some bigmouth talking out of his ass on this. I'll also submit there is always the chance that I could be mistaken, full disclosure here.

Go for it! You CAN do this! thumbs up
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