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Frames or Praga??
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author Frames or Praga??
arthurdent
Attached is a picture of my current rack. I like to do ambient/self-generating patches, some drones. One of my favorites is to set up the Todd Barton Krell patch using my stuff, then start moving patch cables around and/or substitute different types of tones or modulation. I've been looking at these two modules as a way to add the ability to pan audio for different sounds/tones as well as provide more modulation for modulation signals, using CV sources as inputs instead of audio. From what I can see, the Praga provides more flexibility with separate CV inputs for Pan & Volume on all four channels; with the Frames, you pre-program the keyframe settings for the four channels (which is it, 20 or 64 positions?) and then you can vary that pre-program manually or with a CV input. Of course, the Praga costs more initially and would require 8 additional modulation sources to get that extra flexibility so there's a cost differential involved.

DUNNO, just looking for some opinions/ideas right now.
Shwaj
PanMix is another nice option. Slightly smaller than Praga, which is the main reason I chose it, although it is also significantly cheaper. Praga is beautiful, though!

Edit: I’m sure I’ll have nice things to say about PanMix, but mine is still in the mail.
Shledge
Frames isn't really meant to be a dedicated mixer. Sure you can use it as one, but that would defeat the purpose of owning one.
arthurdent
Shwaj wrote:
PanMix is another nice option. Slightly smaller than Praga, which is the main reason I chose it, although it is also significantly cheaper. Praga is beautiful, though!

Edit: I’m sure I’ll have nice things to say about PanMix, but mine is still in the mail.

It is less expensive than the Praga, closer to the cost of Frames. But the CV control is selectable, EITHER for panning or volume but not both at the same time.
arthurdent
Shledge wrote:
Frames isn't really meant to be a dedicated mixer. Sure you can use it as one, but that would defeat the purpose of owning one.

I wouldn't use either of these as just a plain mixer, as you say it would be a waste of flexibility. The idea is to be able to "fluidly blend" CV's or sounds to generate constantly moving tones.
MossGarden
Frames, while it's a mixer in it's core design, is more of a controller for shifting a patch in a different direction. To me it feels very much like the survey knob of a Cold Mac. For my drone/ambient stuff I use it to preset attenuation levels of my modulations, so I can go from gentle lfo's to really heavy ones, and get a shifting mix of them all as well. It's great for that type of thing, but I would not really compare it with Praga because that's dedicated to mixing and has the expected feature set of a mixer. Frames can be used as a panner, but it's designed to send a single signal to up to four outputs, think quadrature panning, as you turn the frames knob your pushing the sound around the room in whatever direction you've got keyframed. Now a combination of Praga and using Frames to handle panning offsets would be a superb combination for drone/ambient/generative music. It's a hard call because they are both different beasts with DNA in the same utility

Hope that helps
arthurdent
MossGarden wrote:
Frames, while it's a mixer in it's core design, is more of a controller for shifting a patch in a different direction. To me it feels very much like the survey knob of a Cold Mac. For my drone/ambient stuff I use it to preset attenuation levels of my modulations, so I can go from gentle lfo's to really heavy ones, and get a shifting mix of them all as well. It's great for that type of thing, but I would not really compare it with Praga because that's dedicated to mixing and has the expected feature set of a mixer. Frames can be used as a panner, but it's designed to send a single signal to up to four outputs, think quadrature panning, as you turn the frames knob your pushing the sound around the room in whatever direction you've got keyframed. Now a combination of Praga and using Frames to handle panning offsets would be a superb combination for drone/ambient/generative music. It's a hard call because they are both different beasts with DNA in the same utility

Hope that helps

But Praga CAN be used for panning as well, it has CV inputs on each channel for panning and Left & Right Stereo Sum outputs.

What got me interested in this was a thread on multiple routing paths:

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=196944&highlight=

Someone brought up Jürgen Haible and his morphing controller, and several people commented on using Frames in a similar fashion. And dcramer often talks about setting up groups of modules - I think that he refers to them as "engines" - and then blends them together. So I tried an experiment; I set up the Todd Barton Krell patch:

https://vimeo.com/48466272

using three different oscillators tuned each an octave apart, and a Quad VCA, Quadra+Expander, Maths, Batumi, quantizer, and random voltage source for modulation inputs. Once the patch was running, I started tweaking the knobs on all of these just ever so slightly to get a little more fluidity to the patch. I thought that it made the whole thing much more appealing. That's why I'm looking at modules that would do the tweaking for me to make the system even more self-generating. It becomes a question of how much money for how much hardware I want to invest. As I stated above, the Praga would need 8 additional modulation sources for full automation. Doepfer's new VC Performance Mixer Modules- the A-135-4 series - is also a good possibility but it also uses more rack space than Praga or Frames. And yeah, maybe a Praga/Frames mix would be a great combination.

So many choices seriously, i just don't get it very frustrating seriously, i just don't get it very frustrating seriously, i just don't get it very frustrating
hermbot
Would the RxMx also fit into what you're looking for? The inputs accept DC and audio signals you can pan / scan / blend them all using CV.
Shwaj
arthurdent wrote:
Shwaj wrote:
PanMix is another nice option. Slightly smaller than Praga, which is the main reason I chose it, although it is also significantly cheaper. Praga is beautiful, though!

Edit: I’m sure I’ll have nice things to say about PanMix, but mine is still in the mail.

It is less expensive than the Praga, closer to the cost of Frames. But the CV control is selectable, EITHER for panning or volume but not both at the same time.


Definitely good to be aware of the pan OR volume CV on PanMix. Not a problem for me, I have an Erogenous Tones VC8 nearby. What is it they say about having too many VCAs?
Rockin' Banana!
dooj88
Shwaj wrote:
What is it they say about having too many VCAs?
Rockin' Banana!


from the memes thread

Shledge
arthurdent wrote:
Shledge wrote:
Frames isn't really meant to be a dedicated mixer. Sure you can use it as one, but that would defeat the purpose of owning one.

I wouldn't use either of these as just a plain mixer, as you say it would be a waste of flexibility. The idea is to be able to "fluidly blend" CV's or sounds to generate constantly moving tones.


Frames would give the most control here - it's keyframing ability allows for some complex crossfading and modulation, and it can generate CV on it's own in the same way, meaning complex envelopes and LFOs. It can also be augmented by Parasites firmware, to allow for further functionality.
arthurdent
hermbot wrote:
Would the RxMx also fit into what you're looking for? The inputs accept DC and audio signals you can pan / scan / blend them all using CV.

Yeah, RxMx appears to be a similarly featured module but it's a little hard to tell by reading the MakeNoise stuff, their descriptions are somewhat esoteric. I've found that the best way to figure out what MN gear will do is to get your hands on it and play with it.
arthurdent
Shledge wrote:
arthurdent wrote:
Shledge wrote:
Frames isn't really meant to be a dedicated mixer. Sure you can use it as one, but that would defeat the purpose of owning one.

I wouldn't use either of these as just a plain mixer, as you say it would be a waste of flexibility. The idea is to be able to "fluidly blend" CV's or sounds to generate constantly moving tones.


Frames would give the most control here - it's keyframing ability allows for some complex crossfading and modulation, and it can generate CV on it's own in the same way, meaning complex envelopes and LFOs. It can also be augmented by Parasites firmware, to allow for further functionality.


I agree that Frames is a better choice "out of the box" than Praga because of the built-in keyframing. With Praga I'd need additional modules to provide the modulation. And the Parasites firmware is intriguing It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners
Foghorn
You also could just get a few Panning modules,
Ones like this.

Doepfer A-134-1 Panning module
OR
Ladik A-410 Panning module
.
I have some of both.
Add a small mixer to a few of these and you have a PanMix, at least in functionality.

I like to run 3 or 4 slowly panned voices (and drum beats) to add to the swirl of the mix.


The only thing I will say here, you have a nice EP-420 case there, do not fill it with a bunch of 4HP modules like I did.
It becomes an overwhelming mess of patch cords very frustrating

Foghorn
PS, I am not sure if either one of these will pan DC voltages?
arthurdent
Foghorn wrote:



The only thing I will say here, you have a nice EP-420 case there, do not fill it with a bunch of 4HP modules like I did.
It becomes an overwhelming mess of patch cords very frustrating

Foghorn


OH YEAH. I purposely bought a big case because I prefer larger panel modules that give you room to work. I have a few 2HP mults that give me enough headaches. And every time I see a comment about someone wanting a 2HP POTI instead of the standard 3HP, it's like running fingernails over a blackboard.
DonKartofflo
I love frames for the things oure describing and would recommend it over rxmx and praga for this purpose.
Its cheaper than both and specifically made for this purpose.
I love setting up "presets" and using random cvs to fade between them. This technique allows to have randomness that only moves between a defined set of values. For example, a feedback patch needs very tight control over its parameters to avoid screeching hell. With traditional patching, it takes a lot of time to set up all the different modulations so they never interact to cut out the sound or unleash a horde of demons upon your audience. With frames, this is really quick and no problem.
Also using it as a "preset machine" for a small monosynth patch is tons of fun as you can change sound completely "per note"
I recommend getting the original MI version as the big knob really allows for fun jamming as opposed to the tiny ones on uFrames.
Also, start without the parasites firmware as the applications for Frames are so vast, you will have a more fun learning experience just trying patches withthe standard firmware.
MossGarden
arthurdent wrote:
MossGarden wrote:
Frames, while it's a mixer in it's core design, is more of a controller for shifting a patch in a different direction. To me it feels very much like the survey knob of a Cold Mac. For my drone/ambient stuff I use it to preset attenuation levels of my modulations, so I can go from gentle lfo's to really heavy ones, and get a shifting mix of them all as well. It's great for that type of thing, but I would not really compare it with Praga because that's dedicated to mixing and has the expected feature set of a mixer. Frames can be used as a panner, but it's designed to send a single signal to up to four outputs, think quadrature panning, as you turn the frames knob your pushing the sound around the room in whatever direction you've got keyframed. Now a combination of Praga and using Frames to handle panning offsets would be a superb combination for drone/ambient/generative music. It's a hard call because they are both different beasts with DNA in the same utility

Hope that helps

But Praga CAN be used for panning as well


I know, its a mixer, which is why I suggest a combination of the two, send offsets from Frames to Praga's panning CV. That would be ultimate.
dooj88
came back to review after picking up a uframes, some good patch ideas in here
createsounds
I found frames hard to use, I thought I was difficult to get the timing of thing correct to what I was hearing in my mind verses the improvising and liking the results time..

I also found it difficult to set the frames, its been a good while since I sold it but, if I remember right it was something to do with the order of setting the frame and adjusting the "mix" for said frame when wanting to lock it in.
Shledge
There is the sequencer mode if you want time critical stuff.

Modules that provide syncable LFOs work best with it - I tie mine up with PNW so the modulations are in sync.
johny_gtr
it's fun that all tell about functionality and possibilities but no comments about how clean or colourful is each mixer. Just for me mixer can do a gentle drive or ruin all the sound by shitty blending.

don't have any mixers in euro and very interesting if someone share their comments. Miley Cyrus
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