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Hinton Proposes New Module Connector Standard. Discuss
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Author Hinton Proposes New Module Connector Standard. Discuss
KSS
Edit: Added after graham's first post in this thread.
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=202040
Graham Hinton wrote:
I am promoting the Dinse connector as a standard for connecting 0Vs between portable cases. The sockets have M8 bolts on the back so you would need a 16mm2 (at least) battery cable with 8mm terminal going to your 0V distribution (not the PSU). There should be one for each adjacent case so it is best to mount them near the corners to the centre of the 0V busbar and use short external 25mm2 linking cables.
...
I am also promoting a new improved standard for module power connections. Once you have made a few of those 0.1" Euro connector cables you'll know why. Feel free to use.

/edit

Graham has posted this link a couple times. Apparently Wiard already is using it, and Hinton will be using it going forward.
http://www.hinton-instruments.co.uk/paprod/psu/powerspec.htm

What do you think?

I'm reposting my reply from a DIY thread here in General Discussion because this is not format specific, needs a wider view, and also to avoid a sidetrack of that thread.
KSS wrote:

Graham Hinton wrote:
I am promoting the Dinse connector as a standard for connecting 0Vs between portable cases. The sockets have M8 bolts on the back so you would need a 16mm2 (at least) battery cable with 8mm terminal going to your 0V distribution (not the PSU)
Graham Hinton wrote:
I am also promoting a new improved standard for module power connections.


I saw you reference these in another thread awhile back and looked into both. I hope you fill out the gaps in the standard as it is the gaps where standards begin to become less effective and harder to apply with uniformity. As an example, a person typing Dinse connector into a search and choosing the Amazon result to see what to buy will find it is not a simple or easy choice. There are many sizes and none are presented with the defining M8 bolt. Confusion is not a way to spread a good idea.
Some will see this link:
http://dinse-us.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/07/DINSE_Plugs_Soc kets_US.pdf
From this your M8 reference suggests exactly which Dinse you are promoting. Appears to be series 25? I did not find any reference to the Dinse connector on your website but it was not a thorough search. It seems this could be considered part of the new module power standard you're proposing. At least ancillary with full defining details found nearby?

Am very much in favor of your new proposal-except Red for primary+, and would like to begin giving it more exposure. Before that can happen, it needs to be made more complete. What size ringeyes and machine screws? Which anti-oxide compound? Internal or external tooth anti-shake washers? Plain washers? Thread size on busbars? Suggested busbar dims? Which contacts in the housings you've chosen. Male pins in sockets or plugs? These seem like small things anyone could figure out, and to someone well-versed in the trade, they are. Most of these can be found by searching on your posts here and You gave me a missing piece in the PM reply you sent.

This thread is proof you're making inroads with your power supply architecture. That's a good thing in my book. But if you -we- want this to become more widely used it needs to be easier to find all key details and more importantly what to buy and use. Otherwise its not a new standard, but just another set of suggestions.

Will be starting a new thread shortly so not to sidetrack this one.


Here are two links relating to my reason for not wanting red for primary+ volts.
http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#pciexpress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_unit_%28computer%29

I believe the yellow 12V and red 5V are so widely known and used that this coloring should not go against it without a very good reason. As seen in the current spec Graham has shared for one end of the cable, the suggestion to use a second related connector for 5V is made. The obvious choice is a 4 pin Molex mini-fit Jr. with two power and two returns. This connector is already seen in yellow and black expecting 12V as seen in the links above. Six pins to add two Green earth GNDs makes sense, but the pair is then becoming a very large PCB space hog.

Hope we can have some useful discussion of the proposed connector and further implementation of a better power supply solution for synthesizer modules

Please don't post photo-laden pics of mocked-up Hinton style distribution in this thread. Save this for fully implemented working application where the real numbers can be shared and discussed.
multiple edits to get quoting correct
ranix
looks expensive. I'd need a lot of feet of wire
Rex Coil 7
LOOOONNNNG overdue. I'm glad Graham has decided to spearhead this proposal. All it can do is make everything we do with these things called "modular synths" better. I see what he's suggesting to be as much of an improvement as anti-lock brakes were for vehicles. A major refinement of something that we (as synth builders and users that have been FAR outgrowing the present day methods) need to apply to our synths. It's time, modular synths have long outgrown the 15 year old methods adopted for synths that the original commercial manufacturers never saw coming in their crystal ball.

Go Graham!

dubonaire
Two things that struck me are that this proposal is for a power bus and not a system bus, which was the original design. There is no facility for the CV and Gate buses. It's not used very much, so I don't think it's a big deal. The other thing is there is no 5V supply line.

The problem with this idea is, notwithstanding its argued technical improvement, what happens to all the owners who don't have this bus? Are module manufacturers expected to offer different approaches? Is there an expectation that everyone will upgrade to a Hinton system? I don't have any problem with my Doepfer power supplies and bus boards.

And one final thing, if Hinton wants to change the industry perhaps backhandedly calling people like Dieter Doepfer and Wowa Cwejman "amateurs" is not the best approach. I don't think anyone actually called it a "standard" either. What is this thing about basic electrical engineering knowledge that engenders such hubris?
Shledge
We seen what happened when people tried to enforce "standards" upon others in the past.

*cough*kilpatrick*cough*
Dave Peck
The Mini-fit Jr. product series is excellent and widely used in the manufacturing of modern electronic products. But so are the existing .100" and .156" connector formats that are used for Dotcom and MOTM style module power connectors. I've used all of these various connector types in a wide variety of applications in probably more than a hundred products that I have worked on, and in my opinion, the Mini-Fit Fr. is way over spec'd and unnecessarily complex and expensive for a task like powering a single synth module. The individual contact pins/sockets in the Mini-Fit Jr. series are rated for 9.0 amps at 600 volts each ( ! ) and that's the LOWEST rating for contacts in that series. Some are even higher.

This series also requires pricey (about $275.00) special tools for crimping the terminals onto the ends of the wires, which is not the case with the simpler insulation displacement connectors ("IDC") used in the existing simpler .100" and .156" in-line connectors. And although a legitimate contract manufacturer who may be building modules in quantity for a company that designs modules will likely have such tools, the harnesses that require these terminals are on the power harness in the cabinet, not on the modules, and those harnesses are most often fabricated or modified/extended by the end user, not the module manufacturer. The connector type needs to be a standard that is conducive to hand assembly by end users who likely don't have expensive specialty crimp tools used for high volume electronics manufacturing.
Rex Coil 7
dubonaire wrote:
Two things that struck me are that this proposal is for a power bus and not a system bus, which was the original design. There is no facility for the CV and Gate buses. It's not used very much, so I don't think it's a big deal. The other thing is there is no 5V supply line.

The problem with this idea is, notwithstanding its argued technical improvement, what happens to all the owners who don't have this bus? Are module manufacturers expected to offer different approaches? Is there an expectation that everyone will upgrade to a Hinton system? I don't have any problem with my Doepfer power supplies and bus boards.

And one final thing, if Hinton wants to change the industry perhaps backhandedly calling people like Dieter Doepfer and Wowa Cwejman "amateurs" is not the best approach. I don't think anyone actually called it a "standard" either. What is this thing about basic electrical engineering knowledge that engenders such hubris?
Oh please.

(quoting the Hinton Instruments website page which addresses this):

"Up until now all synthesizer power wiring has been made by amateurs picking a random connector from a catalogue and calling that their "standard" without any consideration of the electrical requirements or of good audio engineering practise. All of these bad choices have a knock on effect in that they dictate the rest of the power distribution system, which usually causes audio bleed and other module interactions due to common impedance coupling."

Would an educated and experienced professional have made those design errors? I think not.

The problem with becoming offended with Graham's words is that he has math on his side.

dubonaire wrote:
I don't think anyone actually called it a "standard" either.
... By "anyone", I'm going out on a limb and guessing you're referring to a body of professionals belonging to boards that certify, as a group, that something is a standard... so you're right, no-one that would decide on such things has called it a standard, that is word used (inaccurately) by people in forums and other venues. Which is precisely why Graham put that word inside quotation marks (as if to say ~so called standards~).

dubonaire wrote:
.... this proposal is for a power bus and not a system bus, which was the original design. There is no facility for the CV and Gate buses. It's not used very much, so I don't think it's a big deal.
Then why mention it?

dubonaire wrote:
... what happens to all the owners who don't have this bus? Are module manufacturers expected to offer different approaches?
Adapter pigtails.

dubonaire wrote:
What is this thing about basic electrical engineering knowledge that engenders such hubris?
Basic electrical engineering knowledge? Really. So if Graham only has "basic electrical engineering knowledge", and his proposals are clearly better than what other manufacturers offer to date .... that makes said manufacturers what? Oh that's right ... amateurs. Does it not?

Why are you pushing back so hard against this? Graham is proposing something we've needed for several years now, all it can do is improve the state of the industry and bring the power systems up to date. This is a good thing. Yet, all you're tossing is 100% negativity. Why is that? Do you dislike change that much? You remind of people that used to buck against wearing shoulder harnesses while driving, coming up with any and all rationale why it was a bad idea.

dubonaire wrote:
I don't have any problem with my Doepfer power supplies and bus boards.
YAY!!!!!!!!

thumbs up
Rex Coil 7
Dave Peck wrote:
.... The connector type needs to be a standard that is conducive to hand assembly by end users who likely don't have expensive specialty crimp tools used for high volume electronics manufacturing.
Tooling used for high volume manufacturing is pneumatically operated, and does them in groups.

For the DIY crowd, solder them. Or learn to modify the cheaper tools (I modify tools all the time). Look, we've gone into surface mount as hobbyists. Remember when there was ceaseless bitching and moaning about how it was out of reach for the hobbyist? Yet, we've reached it.

For years, people moaned and whined about newer cars being computer controlled (fuel injection, spark timing, even transmission shift points, driveshaft RPM and rear wheel speeds). And today, the DIY/hot rod industry has fully embraced that tech and even learned to use it to make street racers faster than they ever were. EVER. Same with off road vehicles such as dirt bikes.

That said ... this too, we will access. And that ~expensive tool~ is not a requirement to attach the pins to the wires. I've made a number of them without the ~expensive tool~.

Done with two sets of needle nose pliers, and a $20.00 crimp tool.

Dave Peck
But it would have been even easier if they had been plain old MTA-100 IDC connectors - which don't even require buying separate contacts to be crimped onto the wires and installed in the housing. The connector housing and contacts are all one piece.

While there may be some argument for adding additional positions to the existing connector scheme, in my opinion I don't see a reason to change the type of connector.
dubonaire
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
Two things that struck me are that this proposal is for a power bus and not a system bus, which was the original design. There is no facility for the CV and Gate buses. It's not used very much, so I don't think it's a big deal. The other thing is there is no 5V supply line.

The problem with this idea is, notwithstanding its argued technical improvement, what happens to all the owners who don't have this bus? Are module manufacturers expected to offer different approaches? Is there an expectation that everyone will upgrade to a Hinton system? I don't have any problem with my Doepfer power supplies and bus boards.

And one final thing, if Hinton wants to change the industry perhaps backhandedly calling people like Dieter Doepfer and Wowa Cwejman "amateurs" is not the best approach. I don't think anyone actually called it a "standard" either. What is this thing about basic electrical engineering knowledge that engenders such hubris?
Oh please.

(quoting the Hinton Instruments website page which addresses this):

"Up until now all synthesizer power wiring has been made by amateurs picking a random connector from a catalogue and calling that their "standard" without any consideration of the electrical requirements or of good audio engineering practise. All of these bad choices have a knock on effect in that they dictate the rest of the power distribution system, which usually causes audio bleed and other module interactions due to common impedance coupling."

Would an educated and experienced professional have made those design errors? I think not.

The problem with becoming offended with Graham's words is that he has math on his side.

dubonaire wrote:
I don't think anyone actually called it a "standard" either.
... By "anyone", I'm going out on a limb and guessing you're referring to a body of professionals belonging to boards that certify, as a group, that something is a standard... so you're right, no-one that would decide on such things has called it a standard, that is word used (inaccurately) by people in forums and other venues. Which is precisely why Graham put that word inside quotation marks (as if to say ~so called standards~).

dubonaire wrote:
.... this proposal is for a power bus and not a system bus, which was the original design. There is no facility for the CV and Gate buses. It's not used very much, so I don't think it's a big deal.
Then why mention it?

dubonaire wrote:
... what happens to all the owners who don't have this bus? Are module manufacturers expected to offer different approaches?
Adapter pigtails.

dubonaire wrote:
What is this thing about basic electrical engineering knowledge that engenders such hubris?
Basic electrical engineering knowledge? Really. So if Graham only has "basic electrical engineering knowledge", and his proposals are clearly better than what other manufacturers offer to date .... that makes said manufacturers what? Oh that's right ... amateurs. Does it not?

Why are you pushing back so hard against this? Graham is proposing something we've needed for several years now, all it can do is improve the state of the industry and bring the power systems up to date. This is a good thing. Yet, all you're tossing is 100% negativity. Why is that? Do you dislike change that much? You remind of people that used to buck against wearing shoulder harnesses while driving, coming up with any and all rationale why it was a bad idea.

dubonaire wrote:
I don't have any problem with my Doepfer power supplies and bus boards.
YAY!!!!!!!!

thumbs up


Settle down. I'm not pushing hard against this. I don't dislike change at all. Quite the opposite actually. Nowhere did I say I oppose the idea, although I don't really care that much. I don't have a power problem. I suspect the great majority of people using Euro don't have power problems. Apparently the number of people with Doepfer systems is orders of magnitude greater than other manufacturers.

Could Euro have a better power supply system? For sure. That doesn't even need stating. Although I don't find it particularly difficult to plug connectors in the right way, it seems some people do. It also seems people want to spend $10k on modules and $500 on power. So those people need protecting somehow I guess.

You call for a discussion - you want only affirmative responses? That's not a discussion it's a love in. It's important to point out this is not a replacement system bus with the same functionality, it's an alternate +/-12V power only bus. Having worked on standards committees, the one thing you do want is people pointing out problems in proposed new standards.

If you want to effect change you need to facilitate an environment of openness to new ideas, openness to criticism, and a little humility. Having maths on your side (actually it's high school physics) doesn't entitle anyone to be rude. If you want to make a change, which is effectively based around your own company's commercial offering, being derogatory to the people who enabled this entire industry doesn't help. Doepfer is an engineer, his goal was to make and supply complete cheap end user modular systems when the only other choices were expensive large systems. It is presumptuous to think the choices he made weren't informed. When asked about these issues, he's simply responded with a humble smile saying he never expected this and wishes everyone well. A much more respectful approach in my opinion.

So take my opinion or leave it. I'm not going to keep saying it over and over again.
Joe.
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
... what happens to all the owners who don't have this bus? Are module manufacturers expected to offer different approaches?
Adapter pigtails.


Any adaptors would add more resistance to the power bus, and might cause the exactly problem that all of the HYPE in the Eurorack PSU industry is based on.

There are thousands of Eurorack systems

There are about a dozen people on MW complaining of noise each year.

There are about a dozen threads on MW made by Eurorack PSU salesmen, warning that the sky is falling.

When there's actually a problem that the MAJORITY of users complain about, then there will be the necessary pressure for change: At the moment there are more complaints about Redstripe down, and fried modules, than people complaining about noise.
Chrutil
KSS wrote:
Graham has posted this link a couple times. Apparently Wiard already is using it, and Hinton will be using it going forward.
http://www.hinton-instruments.co.uk/paprod/psu/powerspec.htm

What do you think?


I think, great! Then I start reading:

Quote:

Up until now all synthesizer power wiring has been made by amateurs picking a random connector from a catalogue and calling that their "standard" without any consideration of the electrical requirements or of good audio engineering practise


...and I think I have no interest in that kind of asshole snobbery, so whatever, man.
That’s not how to get others on board.
dubonaire
Chrutil wrote:
Then I start reading:

Quote:

Up until now all synthesizer power wiring has been made by amateurs picking a random connector from a catalogue and calling that their "standard" without any consideration of the electrical requirements or of good audio engineering practise


...and I think I have no interest in that kind of asshole snobbery, so whatever, man.
That’s not how to get others on board.


Not only is it snobbery, it's not remotely based on fact. No one has called their power system a "standard". It's actually Hinton wanting the power system he sells to be "the standard". Hinton takes a lot of time to help people on this forum with their power problems which is commendable and ostensibly generous, but does it in a manner that is condescending at best and almost bullying at worst, which is much less so. Very odd.
ranix
hey, EE here, his asshole snobbery is not incorrect and that makes you wrong for calling it out.

The price and complexity is still unnecessarily high. I'd be more on board with adding additional pins to existing connector standards
ranix
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Adapter pigtails


in that case it's just added expense and frustration for no benefit (the crosstalk issues will still be there if you use an adapter pigtail and the new connector)
Shledge
Next will be the introduction of metal poles that you need to put into your arse for that sweet 0v ground reference
dubonaire
ranix wrote:
hey, EE here, his asshole snobbery is not incorrect and that makes you wrong for calling it out.


Hey EE there, please reread what I wrote. I was a control systems engineer, the technical side of this is not lost on me.
ranix
then criticize the technical aspects and not the person or his way of speaking
cptnal
See, this is why I don't want to ask noob questions about power here. It always descends into a slanging match. waah
dubonaire
ranix wrote:
then criticize the technical aspects and not the person or his way of speaking


If I think a manufacturer is seeking to bring in his product as a new standard in part by publicly and wrongly bad mouthing his peers I feel completely at ease criticising that. Just as I feel within my rights to publicly criticise any other commercial entity.

Perhaps you should pass your advice on to Hinton. It's a shame someone with so much to offer, offers it with such hubris. Now I don't have some kind of crazy vendetta against him and I feel I've already posted way more than the subject interests me, frankly.
dubonaire
cptnal wrote:
See, this is why I don't want to ask noob questions about power here. It always descends into a slanging match. waah


You should refer to Joe.'s post above for the main reason PSU threads descend into slanging matches.
Ranxerox
ranix wrote:
then criticize the technical aspects and not the person or his way of speaking


Problem is, insulting his peers is not professional and casts doubt on his judgement in other areas.

I've worked with many engineers and while they are often 'on the spectrum', most of them are capable of discussing their ideas without casual insults.

Hinton is no doubt an excellent engineer, but he takes himself and his ideas way too seriously - these are musical gadgets for fun, not critical subsystems for an atomic warhead.
BananaPlug
This will be a tough sell but the idea of using ribbon cables for power distribution is what should have been a tough sell and it ended up dominant.

Quote:
There are about a dozen people on MW complaining of noise each year.

It's more than a dozen but I agree that expectations are low. People are more concerned about "rack rash" than their modular's circular system.

Quote:
he takes himself and his ideas way too seriously - these are musical
gadgets for fun, not critical subsystems

I don't know Graham personally but I have known other people who are "way too serious" about wiring. Some of them really do know what they are talking about but it's easy to dismiss them as cranks because of all the prickly people who are prickly because they don't know what talking about.
mskala
It'll be for nothing if everyone keeps designing PCBs with traces way too narrow, and no ground plane because they read somewhere that ground planes are bad for microwave circuits. And those are just two of the many technical issues which would have to change before we'd be at a point where telling everyone they need new power connectors would make sense. Maybe by the time all that stuff is fixed, someone with a power-connector proposal will have learned how to make it without insulting the people whose cooperation they're asking for.

Edit: I would much rather see the market demand basic technical information for commercial modules, like schematics. No schematic, no sale. That may not be the absolute most important issue in Eurorack, but it's simple, easy to understand, easier to introduce as an activist thing, and it would make the hobby better in a very real way.
nbirnel
I love standards. There are so many to choose from. very frustrating
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