DIY Clap'a'Trap ** Assembly Results & Trigger Update ***

From circuitbending to homebrew stompboxes & synths, keep the DIY spirit alive!

Moderators: Kent, Joe., analogdigital, infradead, lisa, parasitk, plord, sduck

Post Reply
User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:31 pm

tron23
Thank you for all your efforts towards this project. :guinness:
You're welcome :chug:
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
Common Wiggler
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Dunk_91 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:11 pm

Just finished mine, pretty straightforward build, just lots of 0603 and many different values. Everything works fine on first power up, lovely crunchy sound!!
I've calibrated by ear, but I would like to have a brief explanation of what trimmers are doing...so far my guess are:

P2: a sort of low pass on the hiss, noise gets darker as soon as I trim this.
P9: this one is related to clap enseble, after 3\4 of turn enseble starts oscillating and droning
P12: Also this one act on hiss portion, not sure how should trim it.

(there are a couple of 0805 passive as I've got only those and miss one 22nF cap, replaced by two TH 10nF film cap :hihi: )

Image

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:14 am

Dunk_91
Everything works fine on first power up, lovely crunchy sound!!
Congrats ! :yay: :guinness:
How much time did it take you to assemble it ?
P2: a sort of low pass on the hiss, noise gets darker as soon as I trim this.
P2 is the amount of resonance (as far as possible in this circuit) of the noise source. One can tune this according to personal preference. If you put it too high, it will not go into self oscillation but decrease the noise's output level, so that's not where you want to be.
P9: this one is related to clap enseble, after 3\4 of turn enseble starts oscillating and droning
P9 should be turned to the position when one just does not hear the ensemble. If using an SW audio spectrum analyser, try to turn it down to -80dB or even lower.
P12: Also this one act on hiss portion, not sure how should trim it.
P12 influences the noise's decay. Without external voltage applied, and with the decay knob turned to the right, one can use this trimmer to create the shortest decay one wants to have. This is mainly usefull when emulating a 'clap'. Noise shouldn't decay too long then.

The TH caps are a pitty.
If you can order at Farnell (they are known to ship for free, even for 1 single 22nF cap) then the following link can be of help. https://be.farnell.com/w/c/passive-comp ... 08-metric-
It doesn't need to be a film capacitor, it's only functioning as a DC decoupling cap in the output path.
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
Common Wiggler
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Dunk_91 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:06 am

Hi Boogie, thank you for the infos, I've re trimmed and now in sounds a lot more like a clap! (when you want it to be).

I've noticed a strange behaviour btw, if I power it up with a cable plugged into output it doesn't start. Rest of modular it's fine but clap'a'trap still off. If I turn system on without cable into output everything is fine. Any clue what can cause this? Not a big deal but I would like to fix it if possibile.

Regarding through hole 22nF cap, is there any benefits in switch them with a standard 0603 film cap? Atm it sounds fine to me, but if you recommend swapping them I'll get one with my next order components!

:bananaguitar: :bananaguitar:

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:17 am

Dunk_91
if I power it up with a cable plugged into output it doesn't start
This is not normal.
The internal trigger detection stabilises at power on and creates a trigger pulse at power on immediatly creating a sound at power on, thus with the cable connected.
I don't really have a clue except:
Putting the output jack in, may cause a bit mechanical stress on the PCB.
Have you been able to check the solder joints of the backside SMD supply connector ?
Below is the output schematic, that should not cause any problems.
I would suggest to double check on the solder joints. Good luck !

Re 22nF, no need to replace it, not for function nor sound.

Image
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
Common Wiggler
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Dunk_91 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:05 am

Ok, give it a few more tries and output cable is irrelevant, sometimes it just don't start. No sound and no leds, also button and trig in is unresponsive. Power cycle and it works fine :despair:
Maybe I'll try it in another case just to be sure is module related, but my main case is a 12U 126hp with a 3.5A per rail linear psu and never got any startup problems :hmm:
Apart from this issue I love it, made it clap all day long!

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:33 am

Dunk_91
I've not come across this yet, but let's try to solve it.
Let's start at the beginning of the circuit, the power supply.
When switching on the PS and the Clap'a'Trap does not start,
can you measure the voltages at the stabilizer's outputs.
They should be in the order of plus and minus 9V.
If one of them is way off we have a starting point where to look.


Image
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
Common Wiggler
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Dunk_91 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:58 pm

Boogie wrote:Dunk_91
I've not come across this yet, but let's try to solve it.
Let's start at the beginning of the circuit, the power supply.
When switching on the PS and the Clap'a'Trap does not start,
can you measure the voltages at the stabilizer's outputs.
They should be in the order of plus and minus 9V.
If one of them is way off we have a starting point where to look.


Image
Ok, so when it not start negative regulator is ok (-12 in, -9 out), but positive regulator has output stuck @ -0.75v, definetely not good! Shame I haven't another one to check, in the meantime I'll triple check every solder on +12 rail, but I suspect that positive regulator is fault and sometimes on start remain stuck in a sort of protection state

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:33 pm

Ok, so when it not start negative regulator is ok (-12 in, -9 out), but positive regulator has output stuck @ -0.75v, definetely not good! Shame I haven't another one to check, in the meantime I'll triple check every solder on +12 rail, but I suspect that positive regulator is fault and sometimes on start remain stuck in a sort of protection state
I have not been able to reproduce it here. I've been playing with the power supply from 8 to 15 V pos and neg. The stuff starts up normal.
It may have something to do with the inherent low ESR of the MLCCs and maybe also the AluCap.
Pls remove all caps around the stabilizer, that is the alucap and the 100nF on the input and output, so 3 caps all toghether.
If the startup is OK now, I would then add them again one by one and see when it stops functioning normal. remove the last one and leave it like that.
Pls let me know. Good luck !
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
Common Wiggler
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Dunk_91 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:40 pm

Boogie wrote:
Ok, so when it not start negative regulator is ok (-12 in, -9 out), but positive regulator has output stuck @ -0.75v, definetely not good! Shame I haven't another one to check, in the meantime I'll triple check every solder on +12 rail, but I suspect that positive regulator is fault and sometimes on start remain stuck in a sort of protection state
I have not been able to reproduce it here. I've been playing with the power supply from 8 to 15 V pos and neg. The stuff starts up normal.
It may have something to do with the inherent low ESR of the MLCCs and maybe also the AluCap.
Pls remove all caps around the stabilizer, that is the alucap and the 100nF on the input and output, so 3 caps all toghether.
If the startup is OK now, I would then add them again one by one and see when it stops functioning normal. remove the last one and leave it like that.
Pls let me know. Good luck !
EDIT:

Replaced the positive regulator with a 7809 wich was floating around my bench and yes - no more false start, now it boot fine everytime! thank you for your help boogie!! :tu: :tu:

rbv2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:43 am

Post by rbv2 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:35 am

hi boogie,

can you give me information on where exactly to find the NE566 please?

best
rbv2

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:08 am

rbv2

In the package, in the qubic black foam block.

b rgds,
Boogie
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

rbv2
Common Wiggler
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:43 am

Post by rbv2 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:32 am

sorry..i overlooked that :doh:

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:03 am

No prob.
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
Common Wiggler
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Dunk_91 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:33 am

Hi Boogie, another question here!
Is there a way to increase the retrigger rate?
At the moment it only react to pretty slow triggers, going faster cause it to ignore them and stop being triggered (I think this is due to it's original design).
Any workaround for this? Maybe a cap chance?

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:15 am

Dunk_91
Is there a way to increase the retrigger rate?
That's when using the external trigger ?
I think this is due to it's original design
Yes.
I'll have a loo at it.
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
Common Wiggler
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Dunk_91 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:51 am

Boogie wrote:Dunk_91
Is there a way to increase the retrigger rate?
That's when using the external trigger ?
I think this is due to it's original design
Yes.
I'll have a loo at it.
Yes when using an external trigger! seems like max external trigger speed match max speed set by knob. Would be cool to send it some crazy ratcheted sequence and have it following it :banana:

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:16 am

Dunk_91
Yes when using an external trigger!
I had a look at it and can now externally trigger up to >40Hz.
As I am using the old audio input for external triggering in this version as well, there are some relative big time constants in the audio detector.
One of them being an AM demodulator with 100k and 1µF. This is resulting in the AM demodulator not completely discharging between trigger pulses.

While looking at the request, I've updated two more things as well.

Increased Trigger Rate

Image
C11 from 1µF to 100 nF (keep the 1 µF, we'll use it in a moment)

Better dynamic range of the ensemble

This increased trigger rate has the effect that the multi trigger of the ensemble disapears at higher rates.
One another due to the constant discharge of C13 in parallel with some 60k.

Image
Image

To provide better dynamic range of the ensemble repeat rate (tight or ragged)
I propose to add a 47k to 82k resistor inparallel to C13 by soldering it on top of C13.

AC coupling of the trigger input

In the current version of the Clap'a'Trap, the trigger input is DC coupled.
Dynamic performance can be improved by AC coupling this input.
Here we will use the previous de-soldered capacitor of 1µF.

Image
Image

Replace R81 by the 1µF capacitor, or even better if soldering skills allow,
Put both of them in series on the shape of R81 by putting them vertical (R and C each on 1 pad) and connecting the top sides.

Good luck.
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
Common Wiggler
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Dunk_91 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:48 pm

Boogie wrote:Dunk_91
Yes when using an external trigger!
I had a look at it and can now externally trigger up to >40Hz.

...


Good luck.
You are the man Boogie!! Everything's fine and now reacts to very fast triggers flawless :nana:

If you come with other improvements I'll be glad to test them out, it's always a good excercise to kludge some components on these smt boards!

Ps: I've noticed that my decay cv in is pretty dead, can I ask you wich components are involved in it's road? pot is fine so I suspect that bug is between decay jack and cv summing node :) I would take the fast triggers mod excuse to fix this also!
(no need for schematic screen to fix this, keep your good work reserved...just components designator will be more than ok ;) )

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:04 pm

Dunk_91
You can trim that by P12, the trimmer on the left of the board.

I'll send a PM later tonight.
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
Common Wiggler
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Dunk_91 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:36 pm

Boogie wrote:Dunk_91
You can trim that by P12, the trimmer on the left of the board.

I'll send a PM later tonight.
Don't waste your time, already trimmed P12 and decay cv is back, I've left it all closed...my build is complete now! :yay:

User avatar
tron23
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:03 am

Post by tron23 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:46 pm

That is awesome support, just a few more parts to source right here so I can start the build. :hyper:

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:39 am

Anyone more results or questions ?

Always glad to help.
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

User avatar
Morphology
Common Wiggler
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 7:31 am
Location: Kent, England

Post by Morphology » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:13 pm

Boogie wrote:Anyone more results or questions ?
I'm sure I read this in the build thread, but just to confirm: C19 & C20 at the top edge of the board are not needed (and not in the BOM)?
There are only 10 different types of people: Those who understand binary, and those who don't

User avatar
Boogie
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:56 pm
Location: Belgium

Post by Boogie » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:53 am

Morphology
C19 & C20 at the top edge of the board are not needed (and not in the BOM)?
Yes, that's correct. They are Do Not Populate
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Post Reply

Return to “Music Tech DIY”