DIY Clap'a'Trap ** Assembly Results & Trigger Update ***

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tron23
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Post by tron23 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:41 pm

Just finished mine, very straightforward build and worked on first power up.
Also performed the trigger mod that seems to be working fine.

However, one issue only appears when a very specific setting is dialed.

Here is the description:
When the spread potentiometer is turned fully CW (all the way towards the tight setting) and I engage the humanize switch, I get very fast constant re-triggering (results in droning) on the Ensemble Clap only.
Please could anyone with a working unit dial in this setting and let me know of the results? I suppose this is not normal behaviour, waiting for Boogie's advice to try and correct it.
Thanks for trying. :guinness:

Image

Dunk_91
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Post by Dunk_91 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:25 am

tron23 wrote:Just finished mine, very straightforward build and worked on first power up.
Also performed the trigger mod that seems to be working fine.

However, one issue only appears when a very specific setting is dialed.

Here is the description:
When the spread potentiometer is turned fully CW (all the way towards the tight setting) and I engage the humanize switch, I get very fast constant re-triggering (results in droning) on the Ensemble Clap only.
Please could anyone with a working unit dial in this setting and let me know of the results? I suppose this is not normal behaviour, waiting for Boogie's advice to try and correct it.
Thanks for trying. :guinness:
Mine do the same, I just keep the setting a bit under maximum, but I'm also wondering if it's a bug

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tron23
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Post by tron23 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:11 am

Thank you for your reply. I am sure Boogie will soon give his helping hand, probably too much work on his Jupiter synth. In the meanwhile, I was messing with the circuit last night, touching the ground pins of the trigger switch makes the bug go away so this might be a starting point? I have no idea how this circuit works to be honest.

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Boogie
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Post by Boogie » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:09 pm

Hello all,

apologies for the late reply.

What tron23 and Dunk_91 are experiencing, is not normal.

The touching makes me think something is floating and capturing hum.
Nevertheless,
right now, I have no straight answer.
I will look into it first thing tomorrow morning.
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

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Boogie
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Post by Boogie » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:27 am

Hello,

turns out this 'drone' effect is introduced by the mod for fast triggering.
I didn't catch that at the time.

No worries, simple solution.
The origin of the drone effect has to do with the introduced offset when enabling the humanizer. That would mean that some components in the gain stage would need to be changed.
But that will also change the modulation depth of the humanizer.

As there's a resistor in series with the ensemble ragged/tight potmeter, it's the simplest way to increase this value slightly compared to the sum of the resistor and potmeter.

In my case the problem got solved by changing R41 from 4k7 to 10k.
This hardly influences the clap rate and removes the drone effect.

Sorry for the inconvenience this may have caused.

ImageImage
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Dunk_91
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Post by Dunk_91 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:53 am

Boogie wrote:Hello,

turns out this 'drone' effect is introduced by the mod for fast triggering.
I didn't catch that at the time.

No worries, simple solution.
The origin of the drone effect has to do with the introduced offset when enabling the humanizer. That would mean that some components in the gain stage would need to be changed.
But that will also change the modulation depth of the humanizer.

As there's a resistor in series with the ensemble ragged/tight potmeter, it's the simplest way to increase this value slightly compared to the sum of the resistor and potmeter.

In my case the problem got solved by changing R41 from 4k7 to 10k.
This hardly influences the clap rate and removes the drone effect.

Sorry for the inconvenience this may have caused.
As always light-fast support! I think that I'll leave it "bugged", as I don't dislike the effect...if I would avoid it I'll just keep the pot a bit down! :banana:

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tron23
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Post by tron23 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:01 am

R41 now changed to 10k and the module controls function exactly as intended.
Nabla Instruments support is out of this world, many thanks to Boogie

Puzzler
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Post by Puzzler » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:25 am

Hello,

I have a loudly present noise/drone sound when MIX is fully CW(ENS). Although P9 is completely off.
The pitch of that noise reacts to ENSEMLE pitch.

Is the osc bleeding into the audio path?

I installed the "mods", so R41 was 4.7K and C11 = 1uF.
When changing R41= 10k and C11 = 100nF, the noise got slightly reduced but still clearly noticable.

Any idea?

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Boogie
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Post by Boogie » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:24 am

Dear Puzzler

apologies for the late reply.
I can not find you in my order forms, did you buy this module from someone else ?

Can you post or PM some detailed pictures of your assembly ?
The modif should work.
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Puzzler
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Post by Puzzler » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:50 am

Thanks for the reply?
The oscillation for the ensemble is bleeding through.
When increasing the value for R41, the noise gets more quiet but even with 20k still noticible!

When the 'Human' button is engaged, the drone sound disappears.

rbv2
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Post by rbv2 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:42 am

hello boogie,

puzzler did the soldering for me because i couldn't handle the size.
and now i asked him for the debugging too.

could you provide us with the shematics please so we can try to help ourselfs solving it?
with that annoying noise the modul is unusable.

regards
rbv2

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Boogie
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Post by Boogie » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:26 am

Hello rvb2,

as the schematics are not exactly like the original, and as it took a lot of work, optimizing, redesigning and fine tuning them,
I can not disclose them.

All necessary info has been published.

Nevertheless, pls send some detailed in focus pictures by PM to me, I'll gladly review them.

Though it should be possible to do it by hearing, below is some more explanation on how to tune for the ensemble.

I'll try to provide the exact tuning voltage later this weekend.

Image
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

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Boogie
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Post by Boogie » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:12 am

rbv2

just a consideration that came to my mind,

if the PCB is soldered with the water washable solder from Kester, you may have found the problem.

Turns out it is conductive ! (not as in 0 Ohm, but it leaks current between the joints)

So in that case, pls rinse you PCB very thorough with a water and soap solution.

I've experienced this in my low power VCO I designed for the JPTR8.
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

Puzzler
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Posts: 164
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Post by Puzzler » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:49 am

Image Image Image Image Image Image

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Boogie
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Post by Boogie » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:38 am

@ Puzzler

The soldering is done well ! :yay:

I do see some flux left over between the pins of the opamp U11 1-2
I may have found a short between U11 5-6. pls check.
Both these opamps are in the ensemble envelope generator.

It should be possible to trim the voltage of U11 pin 1 to below 1.2V.
If not, pls let me know what you have, but first clean all flux from the opamp between the pins as indicated above.

Image


If the cleaning doesn't help:
- remove T7 and power up the unit.
if still feedthrough, there's still some curent leaking into the LM13000 pin 16.
nanoamps are enough to get feedthrough, so cleaning is very important when washable Kester has been used

- if feedthrough is gone when T7 is removed and the voltage at pin 1 is less then 1.2V, then something might have been wrong with the transistor or flux between the legs of the transistor.

It shouldn't be, but if the output voltage of U11 pin can not be trimmed below 1.2 V, but remains just above and less then 1.8V, then you probably can solve the problem by adding another diode in series to D9. Thus putting both vertical on the pads.

Pls keep me posted.
Good luck.

B rgds,
Boogie
-------------------------------------------------------
“Digital generated ‘analog’, is missing its analog soul and therefore isn’t analog any more.”
Jupiter 8 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=209322
Minipops 7 clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=199360
ClapTrap clone: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=202248
www.nabla-instruments.com

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sanders
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Post by sanders » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:22 pm

Just another voice of support for this project/product. I'm not on the forum that often, but this immediately caught my eye.

+ DIY Kit w pre-soldered SMD

Puzzler
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Posts: 164
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Post by Puzzler » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:46 am

Boogie wrote:@ Puzzler

The soldering is done well ! :yay:

I do see some flux left over between the pins of the opamp U11 1-2
I may have found a short between U11 5-6. pls check.
Both these opamps are in the ensemble envelope generator.

It should be possible to trim the voltage of U11 pin 1 to below 1.2V.
If not, pls let me know what you have, but first clean all flux from the opamp between the pins as indicated above.

Image


If the cleaning doesn't help:
- remove T7 and power up the unit.
if still feedthrough, there's still some curent leaking into the LM13000 pin 16.
nanoamps are enough to get feedthrough, so cleaning is very important when washable Kester has been used

- if feedthrough is gone when T7 is removed and the voltage at pin 1 is less then 1.2V, then something might have been wrong with the transistor or flux between the legs of the transistor.

It shouldn't be, but if the output voltage of U11 pin can not be trimmed below 1.2 V, but remains just above and less then 1.8V, then you probably can solve the problem by adding another diode in series to D9. Thus putting both vertical on the pads.

Pls keep me posted.
Good luck.

B rgds,
Boogie
Thanks for the answer.

There is no flux residue left over, the pcb has been cleaned.
There is also no short, im using a 90x microscope to verify my soldering.

U11 Pin1 can be trimmer below +1.2V.

If T7 ios removed, the drone sound is gone.

I dont know where the current leaking into the LM13700 pin 16 should be coming from. If i touch the pin with the DMM the nose increases (obviously).

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