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16n faderbank
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author 16n faderbank
Acquadar
16n faderbank. It's incredible that nobody think about it before. A 16 faderbank that control the Eurorack world.

https://llllllll.co/t/faderbank-run-see-top-post-for-status/9920/19

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VpoPBM086DE
DSC
I like the concept. I think I will build my own, maybe with 'CV IN' to each fader channel allowing you to supply CV to attenuate and shape. Also add 'invert' switch to each channel too. No rest for the wicked hihi
gentle_attack
This doesn't look like Eurorack hmmm.....

Linking a random post in the middle of another forum's thread isn't really outstanding content. I'm not trying to be an ass but you should clean up your OP so we know what exactly you are trying to initiate discussion about
ersatzplanet
Someone has thought of it before. The Sp-4dp comes assembled or as a kit.



They use dual sliders so two CVs per slider. Audio, or CV.
DSC
I was thinking something more compact and less clunky, more bang for the buck, as far as HP use too. No offense thumbs up
uniquepersonno2
Ooh, I actually really like the Synthwerks design. For a control module an easily useable layout with high-quality faders really appeals to me. Now I’m tempted to build a control skiff...
Obviously to each their own though, and I’m interested to see what you come up with DSC hihi
ersatzplanet
DSC wrote:
I was thinking something more compact and less clunky, more bang for the buck, as far as HP use too. No offense thumbs up


None taken. There is not much space left after you add jacks to the 60mm pots we use on the module. I could have made a version with the jacks above the sliders like our SP-1P, but with only a CV out jack and no provisions for signal in/out. You could make a narrower version that way with just one jack above each slider and only CV out. There would be room for that. You might be able to fit a knob-less pot for range control too but it would be tight. We use good Bourns sliders and they are 3.43" long so that doesn't leave much above or below. We went the route of flexibility over size. And since it is a performance module, you need a non-crowded space for ergonomic reasons (at least we think so). Each slider on the SP-4DP is a dual slider and both sides have all their taps brought out so not only can each side provide a DC CV voltage, but can also act as a Seque pot or a Pan pot and any of two of those 3 modes can be used at one time on one slider. That is why there are 24 jacks on the side.
DSC
Hi James,

Yes, you did your homework and the module makes tons of sense based on what you were designing it for. Yes, I will be going with smaller travel slide pots. And yes, you justify dual pots with obvious benefits. With smaller travel pots and with LED indicators on them for easy night time reference. I think I could still jam three jacks in per slider. I am also thinking at least 12 slide pots, with the focus on using as little HP possible. Crazy, I know and it might be impossible!!!! I will start doing hard research and see what I come up with over the next few months.
ersatzplanet
DSC wrote:
Hi James,

Yes, you did your homework and the module makes tons of sense based on what you were designing it for. Yes, I will be going with smaller travel slide pots. And yes, you justify dual pots with obvious benefits. With smaller travel pots and with LED indicators on them for easy night time reference. I think I could still jam three jacks in per slider. I am also thinking at least 12 slide pots, with the focus on using as little HP possible. Crazy, I know and it might be impossible!!!! I will start doing hard research and see what I come up with over the next few months.


With smaller sliders and not using knob caps (which is a real problem matching to the many shaft types) you should have plenty of room to do what you want. The most expensive thing with any project involving sliders, is the front panel. Unless you have a friend with a CNC mill to cut the slots, you will need a metal shop to punch them. There is no easy way to DIY them. I usually make my prototypes with Front Panel Express panels, for the SP-4DP I went straight to production and had 50 panels made. Obviously, if you go that way, you have to check everything more than once. Luckily I do the panel design in AutoCad and can import directly from the PCB layout program so check locations.

I love using the SP-4DP in my own rig. Controllers are great for any rig when they get big enough that "reaching through the spaghetti" gets to be a drag. Some actions in a patch are MUCH more obvious and natural with sliders too.

Good luck on your project!
DSC
ersatzplanet wrote:

Controllers are great for any rig when they get big enough that "reaching through the spaghetti" gets to be a drag. Some actions in a patch are MUCH more obvious and natural with sliders too.


+1 this! And after a few years in modular it becomes apparent that having one location to control voltages makes it more useful in the heat of production.

I have complete metal fab, including screenprinting, 'in house' and it is a luxury to be able to make my own prototypes. You probably have seen a few of my creations. My website is here: www.MillionMachineMarch.com
ersatzplanet
DSC wrote:
ersatzplanet wrote:

Controllers are great for any rig when they get big enough that "reaching through the spaghetti" gets to be a drag. Some actions in a patch are MUCH more obvious and natural with sliders too.


+1 this! And after a few years in modular it becomes apparent that having one location to control voltages makes it more useful in the heat of production.

I have complete metal fab, including screenprinting, 'in house' and it is a luxury to be able to make my own prototypes. You probably have seen a few of my creations. My website is here: www.MillionMachineMarch.com


Having access to a local fab shop is VERY cool. Super jealous. There are so many scrapped projects on my drive because I couldn't afford a small run of them (most metal shops will REALLY charge for singles).

This is my controller skiff. I originally made it for a demo rig but now can't stop using it. I can set it in front of almost any cabinet/rig and I'm golden.

DSC
Your control skiff is awesome! Makes sense to dedicate a box that you are personally very familiar with. Great combination of various controls too.

Looks like I could rough in 12 fadas in 26 HP. I/O for voltage and audio. Could possible have space for mutes or offset? I will keep playin' thumbs up



It's not access to another shop. I literally do everything 'in house' thumbs up Little gif of my process.

Over 20 years in contract manufacturing.
20 years in metal fab almost 30 in screenprinting.

ersatzplanet
DSC wrote:
Your control skiff is awesome! Makes sense to dedicate a box that you are personally very familiar with. Great combination of various controls too.


Yeah, it is like bringing your pedalboard when using somebody else’s amp. Learn your controller and you can get similar results with another rig. I myself have five 6U x 84hp cabinets and just take what I need. The controller skiff always comes too.

DSC wrote:
Over 20 years in contract manufacturing.
20 years in metal fab almost 30 in screenprinting.


I started doing metal design around 1976 at Symetrix here in Seattle. I did it for around 25 years. I designed over 50 different 1u, 3u, and desktop chassis (and artwork). Never made them myself, just sent them to shops. Still remember some Pem numbers for the standoff’s we used. Pretty sad.
Dcramer
ersatzplanet wrote:
Someone has thought of it before. The Sp-4dp comes assembled or as a kit.



They use dual sliders so two CVs per slider. Audio, or CV.


we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy
This thing feels amazing. I really need a second to pair with it.
Very flexible patching and lurvly feeling, smooth, responsive sliders... Drunken Homer Simpson
DSC
ersatzplanet wrote:

Never made them myself, just sent them to shops. Still remember some Pem numbers for the standoff’s we used.


Don't get me started on PEM stuff! hihi When I was 22 years old, I started my 'commercial' metal fab experience with working a Pem insertion machine for 10 months straight! very frustrating The only thing that kept me from losing my mind was the promise that I would be able to learn and work the CNC turrent press! Those suckas are bad a$$!!!!


ersatzplanet wrote:

I started doing metal design around 1976 at Symetrix here in Seattle. I did it for around 25 years. I designed over 50 different 1u, 3u, and desktop chassis (and artwork).


Sounds like you really would of had a lot of fun out in the shop building what you were designing. thumbs up
ersatzplanet
DSC wrote:
Sounds like you really would of had a lot of fun out in the shop building what you were designing. thumbs up


I would have a great time! l would have the most baddass metal skiffs and cabinets ever. Drilling holes is easy. The tools are not expensive (drill presses are cheap). Designing for Front Panel Express is easy (but expensive). Bending metal chassis up is not easy without the right tools and space. A shear and a brake are not cheaply come by and take up some space.

Super jealous now.
DSC
I have followed your work since joining Muff's and I really like what you have done. If you have an idea you would like to get a prototype panel done of, let me know. I would gladly work with you. We can figure something out. Or if by chance you would like to try screenprinting on your own I could help with advice.

Here is a couple fun ones I just finished this morning. Six color epoxy on white powdercoat.

DSC
Ok, straight off the bench. Here is what I ended up with. Sorry for the overexposed pics, but I wanted you to really see the latching 'mute' buttons.
13 HP in size. Literally the smallest I could make it.
So the order is:
CV in
Atten CV out
Atten CV Inverted out
Audio in
Atten/mutable Audio out
Mute button (Audio only)


danishchairs
These are great - nice work, both DSC and ersatzplanet! These controllers look fab, like little mixing desks. applause

This thread has been really useful for thinking about the kinds of controls I’d like to have close at hand.
suboptimal
That's a nice little fader box. Excellent work.

I'm a big fan of the Synthwerks fader line. The SP-4DP is my go-to for all sorts of control and performance issues. I feel like it can make a patch into several patches. The issue with these things is always going to be how accessible it is in the case, though. I have mine on the bottom of a monster base that holds the rest of my system and I've installed cable clips here and there over it to keep the pasta under a degree of control.
DSC
suboptimal wrote:
I have mine on the bottom of a monster base that holds the rest of my system and I've installed cable clips here and there over it to keep the pasta under a degree of control.


Yep, that is where I planned to put it too. Lots of cables to sort out thumbs up

Paranormal Patroler
Wow DSC that is so right down my alley! love Loving it.
Sinamsis
DSC
Are you going to sell any of those? I've been holding out for the Instruo fader module (I've been told it will eventually see the light of day, but I have no idea how long that will take), but this seems to be more or less what i was looking for. 8 channels would be even better, but whatever.
DSC
This design is a bit nuts, in a prototyping sort of way. Basically you have to use very slender connectors on your cables in order to get them to work. I have these jacks so packed in tight that they will not support 'most' plastic cables. Personally I use all metal Rean connectors on my custom cables.(Div of Neutrik) This allows me to really smash these suckas together. If you wanted something like this for a 'normal spec' eurorack you would need to remove one row in order to reinstate normal spacing. So figure losing a row of jacks or row of buttons.
How close are they, here is a pic without the panel. Maybe another sane builder here can chime in how how this is NOT how something is currently manufactured in any quantity hihi hihi hihi hihi hihi

Paranormal Patroler
Do you also make custom designs for others?
ersatzplanet
Here is the SP-4DP prototype. Features were added when the PCB was made. Amazing that this thing worked!

hermbot
Looks like this is finally ready to go. I look forward to enterprising builders getting some together. Mr. Green

https://16n-faderbank.github.io/

https://github.com/16n-faderbank/16n
veets
Hoping someone will do a run of PCBs and panels.
sleepgardens
There are around 50 people already interested on the FB group Pusherman. The owner also runs this website that sells open source pcbs: https://pushermanproductions.com/

I guess the pcbs/panels will get on the website in the future.
helix
http://ladik.ladik.eu/?page_id=2118

http://ladik.ladik.eu/?page_id=2113

Dont forget ladik!
starthief
Michigan Synth Works says on Lines:

Quote:
Everyone, Please fill out this form https://goo.gl/forms/vUupExFurFOXS0vu1 5 even if you have emailed about it in the last day. I’ll email that link to everyone that contacted me off list also so hopefully I can get everything in one place. Tentative pricing is $275 USD but that may change (downwards) depending on how many people sign up. I ship worldwide and use USPS First Class which will be $25 for something this size.

The standard Natural Aluminum is the same that’s on my modules, 2mm thick matte finish. I put pics of the other materials I think people may be interested in on the form. If anyone has other ideas, let me know.


And the fader caps:

Quote:
Narrow Sifam. Same as my SY0.5. They are pretty nice and I have bags of them

https://michigansynthworks.com/p/sy0-5-analog-drum-module 1


So, sign up and lower the price hihi It's peanut butter jelly time!
MrNovember
starthief wrote:
Michigan Synth Works says on Lines:

Quote:
Everyone, Please fill out this form https://goo.gl/forms/vUupExFurFOXS0vu1 5 even if you have emailed about it in the last day. I’ll email that link to everyone that contacted me off list also so hopefully I can get everything in one place. Tentative pricing is $275 USD but that may change (downwards) depending on how many people sign up. I ship worldwide and use USPS First Class which will be $25 for something this size.

The standard Natural Aluminum is the same that’s on my modules, 2mm thick matte finish. I put pics of the other materials I think people may be interested in on the form. If anyone has other ideas, let me know.


And the fader caps:

Quote:
Narrow Sifam. Same as my SY0.5. They are pretty nice and I have bags of them

https://michigansynthworks.com/p/sy0-5-analog-drum-module 1


So, sign up and lower the price hihi It's peanut butter jelly time!

Done! I've wanted one of these since the first time I saw one
defalut
Got an invoice, 325 usd for the pre-built is a bit much. I guess not so many signed up then?
starthief
As of a post about a day ago, there were only 7 more available, so it's not a lack of orders smile

IIRC, it's $235 for acrylic, $250 for wood, $275 for aluminum, $300 for black. Plus shipping, which is $15 in the US, $20 Canada or $25 overseas.

If you want cheaper you'll have to get it on a parts group buy and DIY it. Individual pricing just for the PCB is $240 from OSHPark, according to the 16n web page... not counting parts or front/back panels.

Low volume manufacturing is not cheap...
DSC
starthief wrote:


Low volume manufacturing is not cheap...


Amen Brotha thumbs up
sonicmayhem
Sorry im new to this product. Any way to get a finished Fader Bank from someone? Im not really good at DIY.
Sinamsis
For those that ordered, have yours shipped yet?
MrNovember
Sinamsis wrote:
For those that ordered, have yours shipped yet?

Not yet, but I believe it was quoted at 6-8 week lead time and it's only been about 4 weeks
Sinamsis
MrNovember wrote:
Sinamsis wrote:
For those that ordered, have yours shipped yet?

Not yet, but I believe it was quoted at 6-8 week lead time and it's only been about 4 weeks


Nice, that makes sense. I didn't even look at lead time when I ordered. I just saw this thread and realized it was a month since I ordered haha.
Hazza26
I'm tossing up whether to buy one of these 16n's, or go for a Sensel Morph & Buchla overlay (with USB to CV converter like FH-1).

16n
+physical faders so visual feedback of levels
+simple & direct CV patching
-limited to just CV / MIDI CC level control

Morph
+more expression / flexibility with pressure sensing and extra pads
+better ergonomic layout
+can double up as software interface controller (Reaktor etc) or MIDI keyboard/drum pads
-no way to pick up the fader from last position (=jumps in level?)
-will the resolution of the faders will be limited to MIDI CC spec (128)?
-with USB-CV converter is a fair bit pricier

Thoughts from 16n or Morph users appreciated!
bc3
Hazza26 wrote:
I'm tossing up whether to buy one of these 16n's, or go for a Sensel Morph & Buchla overlay (with USB to CV converter like FH-1).

16n
+physical faders so visual feedback of levels
+simple & direct CV patching
-limited to just CV / MIDI CC level control

Morph
+more expression / flexibility with pressure sensing and extra pads
+better ergonomic layout
+can double up as software interface controller (Reaktor etc) or MIDI keyboard/drum pads
-no way to pick up the fader from last position (=jumps in level?)
-with USB-CV converter is a fair bit pricier

Don't forget about the I2C connection on the 16n (the reason I purchased) but not sure if that is something you would need.

Thoughts from 16n or Morph users appreciated!
ignatius
just got a 16n in the mail today from Michigan Synthworks.

https://michigansynthworks.com

nice build. quality. solid. can't wait to get it plugged into stuff. the matte black version looks great btw.
XiXora
ignatius wrote:
just got a 16n in the mail today from Michigan Synthworks.

https://michigansynthworks.com

nice build. quality. solid. can't wait to get it plugged into stuff. the matte black version looks great btw.

Have the faders been fixed now?
Hazza26
ignatius wrote:
nice build. quality. solid. can't wait to get it plugged into stuff. the matte black version looks great btw.

Good to hear!
gummyboy
Does it have physical 16 cv outputs?
Any pics?
kenosis
16 3.5mm outputs and solid faders as well!
Cobramatic
Don't forget that the 16n faderbank also has i2c output!
It is amazing that you can control gear in 3 ways all from one very convenient controller.

i2c maybe isn't for everyone, but if you have an ER-301 or other gear that accepts i2c then the Faderbank is made for you.

I did a video with the Faderbank controlling my 301 if you want to see a demo:
http://youtu.be/oiB4tHbJeZQ

Another tip - you can power the Faderbank from your 5v rail if you have capacity. I just DIY added a jack on the side of my rig for that purpose.
jzwoopwoop
16n can't record / loop slider movement, right?
starthief
Not with the firmware that was written for it so far.

It's open source... but since there are no LEDs or buttons on it, and no other inputs aside from (potentially) MIDI or i2c, it's really not very well suited to recording or playback of slider movement.
jzwoopwoop
starthief wrote:
Not with the firmware that was written for it so far.

It's open source... but since there are no LEDs or buttons on it, and no other inputs aside from (potentially) MIDI or i2c, it's really not very well suited to recording or playback of slider movement.


Admittedly I'm not a dev, but I'll respectfully quibble with your assertion that it's not well suited to recording/playback of slider movement. That's what's keeping this from being an absolute must-buy for me.

In any case, thanks for replying, good to have confirmation on that.
MrNovember
jzwoopwoop wrote:
starthief wrote:
Not with the firmware that was written for it so far.

It's open source... but since there are no LEDs or buttons on it, and no other inputs aside from (potentially) MIDI or i2c, it's really not very well suited to recording or playback of slider movement.


Admittedly I'm not a dev, but I'll respectfully quibble with your assertion that it's not well suited to recording/playback of slider movement. That's what's keeping this from being an absolute must-buy for me.

In any case, thanks for replying, good to have confirmation on that.

That would be pretty epic, but as it is, I really like mine. I'm currently using MIDI out from it to control all the parameters on my H9 and the remaining sliders control several parameters of my Nebulae with CV outs
starthief
I figure, I can record slider movements either in the ER-301 or in my DAW, although neither of those has DC-coupled outputs for general use.

CV recording just isn't something I really feel like I have a need for.
ignatius
XiXora wrote:
ignatius wrote:
just got a 16n in the mail today from Michigan Synthworks.

https://michigansynthworks.com

nice build. quality. solid. can't wait to get it plugged into stuff. the matte black version looks great btw.

Have the faders been fixed now?


what do you mean? i didn't know they were broken? you'll have to get more specific.

the faders are nice. pleasant to use.
mudlogger
ignatius wrote:
XiXora wrote:
ignatius wrote:
just got a 16n in the mail today from Michigan Synthworks.

https://michigansynthworks.com

nice build. quality. solid. can't wait to get it plugged into stuff. the matte black version looks great btw.

Have the faders been fixed now?


what do you mean? i didn't know they were broken? you'll have to get more specific.

the faders are nice. pleasant to use.


Michigan originally put on expo sliders instead of linear on the first builds. This second round of builds he sorted it.
I received mine a few days ago and it's perfect. I got it for the i2c connection to the er301 plus the midi out for the H9. 16 individual outs also to the modular and not taking up rack space. It's a no brainer.
gentle_attack
That Michigan synth Works black one, looks like it may be my next purchase.

I wanted a Mini Horse, and of course this is not a 1:1 substitute, but this looks like it can do a bunch of the same stuff I was planning to do (running it into o_C mostly).

From the photos on his site, it looks like the sides of the case are exposed. Is that true? Doesn't really matter I just noticed it doesn't look like a full enclosure.
starthief
That's right, it has a top and bottom panel but no sides. It's simpler to build and sides wouldn't offer much extra protection anyway.
XiXora
mudlogger wrote:
ignatius wrote:
XiXora wrote:
ignatius wrote:
just got a 16n in the mail today from Michigan Synthworks.

https://michigansynthworks.com

nice build. quality. solid. can't wait to get it plugged into stuff. the matte black version looks great btw.

Have the faders been fixed now?


what do you mean? i didn't know they were broken? you'll have to get more specific.

the faders are nice. pleasant to use.


Michigan originally put on expo sliders instead of linear on the first builds. This second round of builds he sorted it.
I received mine a few days ago and it's perfect. I got it for the i2c connection to the er301 plus the midi out for the H9. 16 individual outs also to the modular and not taking up rack space. It's a no brainer.


Exactly. It noted me to email to see where I can get a replacement board. Looking forward to it!
It’s a bit unlucky as he had expo sliders then found linear sliders but they had a slight y=x^3 shape to them. That’s the slider I had received. Was just a case of waiting for manufacturing. Hopefully they didn’t lose too much on it…
helix
seriously, i just don't get it nothing...
mudlogger
i2c direct to the er301 - no patch cables

https://instagram.com/p/B0VYGVMBGn8/

https://instagram.com/p/B0U_AeyBoLY/
steviet
I put two of these together, and OUF are they awesome. Got my PCB and case from Pusherman. Great for giving VCV some real life wigglin', and I can send that over MIDI while using the same sliders to send CV applause

I've been trying to find proper knobs for a week now and I can't find anything that fits... I noticed in this thread Sifam Slim knobs are a good choice... But I can't find these anywhere either. The two types I've tried were too large to fit on the sliders. Anyone have a link?
veets
I was turned on to these some time ago... I can't recall the source:

https://www.conrad.com/p/alps-76521-slide-potentiometer-fader-knob-l-x -w-13-mm-x-25-mm-grey-441884

I was planning on purchasing some as soon as I started the build, which ain't happened yet. Therefore, I have no experience to share about the part or the dealer.
steviet
Thanks veets, these ones ended up working great. 4mm Slot:


https://www.amazon.ca/Replacement-Grey-Mixer-Fader-Knobs/dp/B07K6Z5ZJF  /ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?keywords=4mm%2Bslot%2Bbehringer&qid=1569264175&sr=8 -1-fkmr0&th=1

A little pricey, but knobs are pricey anyways so thumbs up
veets
Thanks for sharing. Best of luck with your build. Mine is on hold until the snow begins to fly.


steviet wrote:
Thanks veets, these ones ended up working great. 4mm Slot:


https://www.amazon.ca/Replacement-Grey-Mixer-Fader-Knobs/dp/B07K6Z5ZJF  /ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?keywords=4mm%2Bslot%2Bbehringer&qid=1569264175&sr=8 -1-fkmr0&th=1

A little pricey, but knobs are pricey anyways so thumbs up
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