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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Tape style loop degradation
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author Tape style loop degradation
srogers
So I have a decent amount of experience with decaying tape loops and I want to see if there’s a way to accomplish that effect with modules. Something that will give me a Disintegration Loops vibe.

I’ve checked a few other threads but most of them just suggest hardware (other than modules) which I am trying to avoid. I have plenty of cassettes that I can use to de exactly this I want to keep this contained to euro.

I think the key factor here is time. I want to start off with something that is clean and in tact and over time slowly devolve into a mess of noise. Maybe some sort of really slow saw wave as a modulation source into s+h with a really slow or manual gate/trigger? Modulation parameters being filters, noise, fm, etc. Any thoughts/ideas?
CaneMan
Do you mean frippertronics style looping? Sounds like something you could do with any delay that has a send/return on the feedback loop. My first thought would be a DLD plus your filter of choice in its feedback loop.
Futuresound
I agree that the obvious choice is a delay with a patchable feedback loop. Put something like a bitcrusher in the loop, or mix a little noise in.

Alternately, if you have loops prepared and don't need a delay per se, patch the loop through a feedback mixer (eg A-138m), and manually adjust the amounts of bitcrushing/decimation/noise/etc. Or use long modulation to open VCAs to control the feedback amount.
VanEck
i was able to achieve results like this using the chronoblob, and routing the feedback out through a narrow bandpass filter that was being modulated by an LFO, followed up by some distortion. the intellijel polaris was pretty good for this in conjunction with the chronoblob.
mritenburg
A Low pass filter in the feedback loop does the trick too.
brandonlogic
More of an all in one solution but this is basically exactly what Magneto does. It also has feed back loop patching for further processing. the crinkle and wow and flutter are great on it too.
Dogma
you've pretty much described mannequins w///
srogers
Thanks for the suggestions! I’m not exactly talking about Frippertronics - that deals more with sound on sound looping with tape, whereas the focal point of what I’m trying to achieve is the degradation over a long period of time. Not so much melodic variation.

Magneto was the first place I looked since I have an El Capistan that I’ve used with guitar for many years. Its sound on sound looper mode is actually what inspired me to make this thread. But the Magneto is big, expensive and there’s no cv cotrol of the modulation.

Just to clarify I’m not really looking for a looper module. I can loop with a sequencer, but it’s the loop’s fidelity I want to slowly break down. That said the W/ does look really cool and I’m definitely gonna check that out for actual looping purposes.
R.U.Nuts
So you don't want a looper or delay but an effect that degrades the audio quality of an input sound in real time, right? I'd try with subtle overdrive and a lowpass and highpass filter in series slowly lowering the cutoff frequency of the lowpass and simultaneously raising the cutoff frequency of the highpass. This way you slowly limit the frequency bandwidth of your input signal.
kbithecrowing
^^^ That's a great idea.

Aside from an actual module, I think you kinda hit on what you want in your OP. Subtle modulation of pitch, timbre, and speed of a sequence that gets increasingly more pronounced are ways to "synthesize" that degradation sound. If you have a CVable clock source, for example, you could run an LFO to modulate the speed of a clock for your sequence , then mult that LFO to the FM input of your oscillator for a "warped tape" sounds. You could also mult that same LFO to a VCA that will introduce more noise somewhere along your signal path. You could also use more discrete modulation sources so those three elements can be isolated. All depends on what you want to do.

Personally, I use an el Capistan with modular pretty much all the time for this exact purpose. Using a subtle slap-back setting then messing with the wow&flutter and tape crinkle to give me more degradation on demand; plus the looping mode is a few clicks (or a favorite switch press) away.
srogers
R.U.Nuts wrote:
So you don't want a looper or delay but an effect that degrades the audio quality of an input sound in real time, right? I'd try with subtle overdrive and a lowpass and highpass filter in series slowly lowering the cutoff frequency of the lowpass and simultaneously raising the cutoff frequency of the highpass. This way you slowly limit the frequency bandwidth of your input signal.


Yeah exactly! I’ll definitely try that out. I have a three sisters and I’m looking for a bastl cinnamon, I think those two will work well together for that purpose.

For what it’s worth this is the rack I’m working with/towards. I have about 70% of these modules at the moment.

srogers
kbithecrowing wrote:
^^^ That's a great idea.

Aside from an actual module, I think you kinda hit on what you want in your OP. Subtle modulation of pitch, timbre, and speed of a sequence that gets increasingly more pronounced are ways to "synthesize" that degradation sound. If you have a CVable clock source, for example, you could run an LFO to modulate the speed of a clock for your sequence , then mult that LFO to the FM input of your oscillator for a "warped tape" sounds. You could also mult that same LFO to a VCA that will introduce more noise somewhere along your signal path. You could also use more discrete modulation sources so those three elements can be isolated. All depends on what you want to do.

Personally, I use an el Capistan with modular pretty much all the time for this exact purpose. Using a subtle slap-back setting then messing with the wow&flutter and tape crinkle to give me more degradation on demand; plus the looping mode is a few clicks (or a favorite switch press) away.


Yeah this is totally the kind of thing I was asking about, thanks! I think between Batumi, tangle quartet and 3xmia I can go a long way with modulation. I was thinking Dunst for a little bit of “tape hiss” as well.

And yeah I even have the sbg for guitar pedal integration but el cap is on my main board which I use live pretty frequently and I don’t want to dismantle it. I do have a deco that I could use for some saturation and double tracking though
Acquadar
Guys, we need someone that live in the NYC area. Someone that know the Best kept secret. How William Basinski made "disintegration loop". Tape and one or more pedals, sure. If we know which pedal we can think about an Eurorack way to achieve the same sound. Anybody out there?
thechocofactry
How about the Instant Lo-Fi Junky?
kwaidan
Here is an interview with Basinski:

Interview

Field recordings are often good to add a sense of decay. Deepchord/Echospace use rain a good deal. Sending a recording through a resonant EQ can yield some interesting results. Unfortunately, the Serge versions do not have CV control.

I’ve been meaning to try Shelves and see if it is good at adding movement to noise and such.

T-Rex just came out with a junior version of their tape delay. Wth a 15% trade-in discount on an old Boss PH-2, I managed to pick one up at Guitar Center for $400.

Also, something like a phaseshifter can add movement to hiss.

You might also try using a sequencer and sample playback module to add movement, or even, God forbid, a far-off sense of melody.
desolationjones
Acquadar wrote:
Guys, we need someone that live in the NYC area. Someone that know the Best kept secret. How William Basinski made "disintegration loop". Tape and one or more pedals, sure. If we know which pedal we can think about an Eurorack way to achieve the same sound. Anybody out there?


The ER-301 excels at this, but any looper with punch in/out overdub can achieve disintegration loops... simply punch in/out according to random gates, overdubbing your recording from a silent input.

User kieselguhrkid over on this ER-301 thread does a great job explaining.
VortexRanger
Some of the bandpass sounds here reminded me of it:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srO2rdy0A2g
CaneMan
srogers wrote:
kbithecrowing wrote:
^^^ That's a great idea.

Aside from an actual module, I think you kinda hit on what you want in your OP. Subtle modulation of pitch, timbre, and speed of a sequence that gets increasingly more pronounced are ways to "synthesize" that degradation sound. If you have a CVable clock source, for example, you could run an LFO to modulate the speed of a clock for your sequence , then mult that LFO to the FM input of your oscillator for a "warped tape" sounds. You could also mult that same LFO to a VCA that will introduce more noise somewhere along your signal path. You could also use more discrete modulation sources so those three elements can be isolated. All depends on what you want to do.

Personally, I use an el Capistan with modular pretty much all the time for this exact purpose. Using a subtle slap-back setting then messing with the wow&flutter and tape crinkle to give me more degradation on demand; plus the looping mode is a few clicks (or a favorite switch press) away.


Yeah this is totally the kind of thing I was asking about, thanks! I think between Batumi, tangle quartet and 3xmia I can go a long way with modulation. I was thinking Dunst for a little bit of “tape hiss” as well.

And yeah I even have the sbg for guitar pedal integration but el cap is on my main board which I use live pretty frequently and I don’t want to dismantle it. I do have a deco that I could use for some saturation and double tracking though


I have a sneaking suspicion that, if you want to modulate multiple modules at once for this effect, you might want to consider a ColdMac. Seems to be one of the things it excels at.
srogers
ILFJ is cool; I have the pedal version but it’s more suited for BoC type stuff rather than Basinski.

kwaidan wrote:
Here is an interview with Basinski:

Interview

Field recordings are often good to add a sense of decay. Deepchord/Echospace use rain a good deal. Sending a recording through a resonant EQ can yield some interesting results. Unfortunately, the Serge versions do not have CV control.

I’ve been meaning to try Shelves and see if it is good at adding movement to noise and such.

T-Rex just came out with a junior version of their tape delay. Wth a 15% trade-in discount on an old Boss PH-2, I managed to pick one up at Guitar Center for $400.

Also, something like a phaseshifter can add movement to hiss.

You might also try using a sequencer and sample playback module to add movement, or even, God forbid, a far-off sense of melody.


Some great suggestions here, especially with field recordings and sequencer/sampler ideas. Definitely going to try those out.

I actually live in NYC and have seen Basinski a handful of times!

I have no doubt that an ER-301 could do just about anything I wanted it to haha but that’s a bit out of reach at the moment financially and HP wise. I’m mostly looking to stick with what I already have give or take a couple modules. Cold Mac does look perfect for this type of application so I’m gonna check into that.
indexofmetals
srogers I picked up a Magneto to do this, after previously using Echoplex EP2's with SOS for ; one disappears completely after 10 minutes when left to run out, the takes 40 minutes before it disappears. The tube Echoplex's are noisy but the two minutes of sound on sound is a perfect length.

to my ears the Magneto doesn't do the degrading sound on sound as well so I'll continue bringing out an EP2 for gigs. But I'd give it a try if there's one in a local store as it may suit your needs better. I may just be used to the tape sound too much. The magneto is a fantastic tape delay / spring reverb emulator so it's staying as well.

thanks Dogma for mentioning the mannequins w///, I will be ordering one.
starthief
I've used the "DAWLP" VST plugin twice in the last three songs I've recorded but I don't necessarily want vinyl crackle all the time -- so field recordings is a great idea.

I have some really lo-fi recordings of rain that I made by plugging earbuds into the mic input of a Rio Carbon back in the day, which I think I can finally put to good use. Plenty of other interesting stuff to lean on as well.
ersatzplanet
OK, I know you don't particularly want to use hardware but here is a suggestion that will do subtle head saturation decay to a signal. The idea is to use one of those MP3/AUX/Cassette adaptors in a cassette deck.



Insert the feedback loop of the echo through a cheap cassette deck. Take the out of the echo to the adaptor and the out of the cassette deck to the in on the feedback loop. This way every time the echo repeats the loop, a little more distortion gets added to the signal. Without the echo loop insertion, the effect will not add each play. Depending on how hard you hit the adaptor and what type of cassette you are using (stereo, mono, 4-track Portastudio) you will get different results.
srogers
That’s actually a really cool idea! I totally forgot those existed and I’m sure they’re super cheap. I have a bunch of cassette players lying around so I’ll give that a shot for sure.
wildfrontiers
Use filtered noise (I like white or pink running through a lpf) to modulate the cutoff of a filter or VCA. Use a VCA or attenuator to control how much.. you can go even deeper by using more filtered noise to modulate the other filtered noise.

You can hear this being used in the beginning and ending of this track. This is Three Sisters being modulated by filtered noise from an ER-301.

https://soundcloud.com/archives-5/r-beny-takoma
srogers
wildfrontiers wrote:
Use filtered noise (I like white or pink running through a lpf) to modulate the cutoff of a filter or VCA. Use a VCA or attenuator to control how much.. you can go even deeper by using more filtered noise to modulate the other filtered noise.

You can hear this being used in the beginning and ending of this track. This is Three Sisters being modulated by filtered noise from an ER-301.

https://soundcloud.com/archives-5/r-beny-takoma


Love that track, I was hoping you’d chime in. I like using Dunst as a modulation source but I’ve never tried filtering it before, thanks for the input!
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