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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

ACCEPTING ORDERS: 18-channel DIY Stereo Analog Vocoder
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Tech DIY  
Author ACCEPTING ORDERS: 18-channel DIY Stereo Analog Vocoder
glubsch
I am now accepting orders. If you are interested in this project, please first familiarize yourself with the documents shown below (Assembly Guide, BOM, Bundle Request Form), then fill out the Bundle Request Form and send it to my email address. You can find my email address at vocoder.hoerold.com near the end of the web page.

Note: the bundle I am offering is not the whole kit. You will still have to order parts from your trusted distributor. There's a basket at Mouser that will still need some updating. I am planning to separate out the DC/DC converter based power supply.

I will accept orders until the first 12 candidates have signed up. As is customary at muffwiggler's, I will post the candidates' aliases on the first post.

Once the list is full, I will accept payments. After all payments are made, I will order the parts and PCBs as requested per the Bundle Request Forms sent to me.


2018-10-24: Assembly guide

Find the assembly guide here.


2018-09-27: Initial pricing info

For a good pricing indicator (final prices for panels pending), see the bundle request form.


2018-08-16: BOM now available

Alright, there are now two documents available:
    1) A PDF that contains the complete assembly tables and the BOM.
    2) An Excel spreadsheet that I've built up over the last couple of years and that I've just updated with the latest component cost.
I believe for many of you the spreadsheet is of strong interest as it essentially gives you and indication about the total cost for the BOM.


Feature comparison chart:




2018-07-30: Original post

Hello wigglers!

What do think about this 18-channel analog stereo vocoder?



I've been working on this project over the last couple of years but now it's time to check the community's interest. Over time, I hope we get to know each other better on this thread.
whoop_john
glubsch wrote:
Hello wigglers!

What do think about this 18-channel analog stereo vocoder?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvwQLsDnUX4

As I am new to this forum, HTML is not enabled for me (yet), so I can't embed the video here.

I've been working on this project over the last couple of years but now it's time to check the community's interest. Over time, I hope we get to know each other better on this thread.


Quite amazing! Love it. Look forward to your explanation in due course.
HighLordFixer

use [video] tags
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvwQLsDnUX4
remove the S from htttps for showing video
btw
looks und sounds Wunderbar!
post more info
that reminds me of the EMS3000 vocoder
yet possibly even better in some ways
DIY you say?
details!
prices!
people around here will want making that vocoder!
http://vocoder.hoerold.com/
http://vocoder.hoerold.com/sources/Vocoder_brochure.pdf

AntonWoldhek
that looks sick!
widdly
The vocoder sounds fantastic!
mrtweed
that is awesome!
Leverkusen
glubsch wrote:
Hello wigglers!

What do think about this 18-channel analog stereo vocoder?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvwQLsDnUX4

As I am new to this forum, HTML is not enabled for me (yet), so I can't embed the video here.

I've been working on this project over the last couple of years but now it's time to check the community's interest. Over time, I hope we get to know each other better on this thread.


Welcome!

I think it sounds and looks great! I like the stereo feature and find that the voice/unvoice detection sounds very good. Also I like its clean compactness and UI design. If I can afford it (PCB's? panel option? Full kit?) I would be interested in building one.

On a sidenote: As far as I know Kraftwerk are a bit picky with usage of their music by other people. So I hope you won't get into any trouble with your video.
BugBrand
Good work indeed!

I hope, if/when you offer kits, that there will be rack mount option - or perhaps the case has optional rack ears?

[in the PDF - you could drop the use of 1/8" -- 3.5mm minijacks are not 1/8", it is just wrong terminology continually used by many people...]
Seaweed Sound
Amazing build and great demo!
hox3d
Would bananas fit instead of jacks ? razz
paterursus
I would love to see more information on this - build docs / BOM. But I would definitely be interested in a PCB/panel/case set if I could swing it. Great work on this!
abelovesfun
Sounds great. I would be interested!
tobb
WOW,awesome,much better then kit J.Haible ever did.

I am interested for sure.
Croodey
It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners Rockin' Banana!
Great job,....!!!
I'm in if you start

I'm really interessted and I can't wait love
glubsch
Lots of comments. Keep 'em coming!


Instead of quoting each post, I'll try to summarize them here in this post. Unfortunately I am not allowed to use HTML to make this post more readable.

I can't comment too much on the EMS3000 as I have no way to compare it side by side with my vocoder. I can only judge from sound samples available on youtube and there aren't that many. I would expect, however, that the VoIS (that's how I call my vocoder in short) has better intelligibility. My first attempt was to build the analysis/synthesis section using the LM13700 but that beast added a lot of noise to the system and the freezing feature didn't work too well due to the way the current output of the OTA charged the holding capacitor (for the sample & hold feature). Besides, the EMS3000 doesn't provide you a stereo option. In fact, as far as I can tell, there's no analog vocoder out there that offers you stereo unless you buy two identical vocoders :-)

Let's get one thing out of the way: there are no plans to sell a DIY kit or to organize a group buy. The VoIS is literally built using about 4000 components and I can't possibly organize this. I do, however, plan to provide the bill of materials (BOM) with a suggested distributor for each and every component, including the order code. That should help you build your order lists quickly. I've tailored that list for ordering from distributors from Europe but it should be fairly easy to adapt for those who plan to buy components from the US. In fact, in some cases it was cheaper for me to buy components from one distributor in the US instead of Europe.

Oh, and about the 4000 components: I mean it when I write "for the ambitious enthusiast". From procurement/availability point of view though, you may actually be surprised about the use of well-known components that are easy to get such as, of course, the TL074. Zoom in at the analysis/synthesis channel filter board on the dedicated vocoder web page and you'll notice the parts in use. And since I am already on the subject of availability, to keep the noise at a minimum, I chose the MC33079P for the 8-pole filters but you can just as well use the TL074 if you prefer (I've tested it).

If the number of components sounds intimidating, don't bail on me just yet. I have prepared a mono version of this vocoder without internal excitation, patch bay, and silence bridging. If you feel the high-end option is out of your reach, please bear with me. I will revisit this option once I have collected enough input from the community here. The mono option I have in mind has about 2600 components.

In general I am thinking of selling a combo of PCBs and the front panel, probably starting out with a limited run of 12 sets (PCB + front panel) to get this going.

Regarding the question about the rack mount: I was definitely planning to sell the front panel with these "ears" as you called them. Here I'd need some feedback on where to find the proper dimensions. I assume that most of you would like the regular front panel for rack mounting purposes, so that's the way to go. As far as the case goes, the screw holes are made to fit the rack case "Slim Line 03/230 3U 4mm" from HiFi2000.it. At this point I need to make clear that I am not affiliated with any suggested sources and you may choose to buy components elsewhere. But in this particular case I wanted to make sure things combine seamlessly. The channel boards are designed with a notch to hold the top cover of the case in a way that the 3 mm front panel doesn't bend, e.g. when you pull the plugs from the front panel. By the way, I got my panel done at Schaeffer AG.

I plan to release details over time as I prepare some more documentation so you get a better feel about this project. In the next step, I will provide a general overview about the parts used, such as resistor specifications, capacitors (e.g. 1206 SMDs are used as blocking capacitors). It will also contain some comments about the procurement of the potentiometers.

Regarding the comment about Kraftwerk being picky about using their music, let me be very clear: we did not use any sound snippets from Kraftwerk. All sounds are generated on our own analog synthesizer. And if you compare the simple demo with the original, you'll notice quite some difference. So I hope that's no basis for getting in trouble with them. The purpose of the video is merely to demonstrate the capabilities of the vocoder.

About the use of 3.5 mm (1/8 in): I know there's a bit of a difference between the 1/8 in = 0.125 inches and the 3.5 mm that actually convert to 0.138 inches but I thought it was common to use 3.5 mm or 1/8 inches for these types of plugs. Should I just remove the "1/8 in" from the vocoder brochure?

Regarding the use of banana plugs: I suppose you asked whether you can use them for the patch bay instead of the regular 3.5 mm patch cables. I guess you can use them if you file them off. :-) Seriously though: the plugs in use (CL1384 or the higher-quality CL1384G) have an internal switch. If nothing's plugged in, the CV-in is directly supplied internally with the signal from CV-out. In case you plug in a patch cable, the CV-in is disconnected from the internal connection and supplied via the patch cable from a different CV-out instead.
HighLordFixer
Take your time considering it is an "Epic" Project
my comment regarding the EMS 3000 Vocoder
was merely noticing some similarities from designing software emulation of that unit
all the good ones plus 18 bands instead of 12
you have an eager audience here for your R&D
some of us may actually comprehend:
about the 4000 components: I mean it when I write "for the ambitious enthusiast"
you could maybe even sell individual DIY PCBs
(such as the band cards plus contemplate making eurorack powered modules(w/ faceplates) from your PCB cards)
you could possibly completely tap into that market
keep focusing on BOM & schematics
plus Banana jack or 1/4" are what ever the person building vocoder can make happen in their case or rack
(it's really a "no braininer" swapping jacks wiring direct from PCB mounts)
Thanks for responding
BTW welcome aboard here @MUffWiggler
if you need some brainstorming feedback...
you have our attention
We all eagerly & patiently will wait for any updates on this DIY Super Stereo Vocoder project!
JanneI
Great project! About the component count, many of us have sourced and build something with +4000 components, so bring it on! As long as the docs are decent, I'll be waiting for sale of your pcb's! But before that happens, I should really finally start building the Haible vocoder ;-)
MechaSeb
What an introduction ! hyper
Welcome on Muff and thanks for sharing this great project with us.

It sounds very good !
One question regarding the stereo function. Does it actually pan the odd & even channels independantly ? By listening the sounds demo, it's how my hears interepreted it... but i may be wrong of course.

Please count me in for a PCBs + front panel set when everything is ready . thumbs up

EDIT: just saw there is a brochure on your link.
Gonna check it.
LektroiD
I LOVE vocoders!

I've built a MFOS vocoder and in the process of finishing the Haible vocoder.

I'd love one of these provided it's at the right price (a few DIY projects lately have been a little too heavy on the wallet).

If anyone is doing rack enclosures like that EMS 3000, I'd be interested in one of those too!
wiperactive
Been waiting for something like this. The Haible Vocoder seems to be more of a challenge, on the face of it, for someone of my DIY build experience.

Like LektroiD has just mentioned, provided it's not too heavy on the wallet, I'd be interested in the full version. But if, at this juncture, it's too financially demanding, I could reluctantly go for the mono version without the internal excitation... glad this option may be offered as well.

Sounds spot-on in the demo!
efexor


That looks wonderful.
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Eric the Red
This is just a beautiful product. If I didn’t have a Vocoder in the PCB Pile, I would be jumping on this.
glubsch
Regarding the question about the stereo functionality. To make sure no one gets a false impression, I explain this at two points in the vocoder brochure:

1) On page 3 ("Operating Principle"), there's the sentence "A unique feature of this vocoder is the synthesis of a stereophonic vocoder output from the stereophonic carrier input as each individual frequency band is assigned to one of the audio channels."

2) On page 8 ("Technical Specifications") in the footnotes: "Each bandpass is assigned either to the left or right audio channel of the vocoder output via internal jumpers".

This means that you choose for each analysis/synthesis channel filter board whether it is assigned to the left or the right channel. I've simply chosen to assign them alternating left and right going from one frequency to the next. In other words: 120 Hz is assigned to the left channel, 150 Hz to the right channel, 190 Hz to the left channel, 240 Hz to the right channel, and so on.

So there's no handling of two audio channels on each single channel filter board. If I had designed it that way, it would have been truly two separate vocoders in one rack. When I designed the VoIS, I first didn't know what I would end up with so I gave it a try. In the end, I was very pleased with the results. It's actually quite impressive how the brain works because you could argue the frequency bands are too far separated that way, the combination of all channels not providing a nice contiguous band in the frequency domain.

As far as the discussions about the rack go, I already wrote a few words about it in my previous post but let me focus on that a bit more: I don't know about all the various racks available on the market. I decided to optimize the PCB's to fit the rack offered by hifi2000.it because I've read a lot of good things about them in various posts in the past. The front panel I plan to offer (in the final version with the regular sized front panel that includes the "ears") fits them perfectly. If someone could steer me to a document that provides me with the official dimensioning of rack front panels, I could try to find out two things: 1) the standard dimensions of the front panel and the dimensions and positioning of the ears, and 2) whether the screw holes are the same for any rack option. I need to find out if the latter is also standardized.
glubsch
Eric the Red wrote:
This is just a beautiful product. If I didn’t have a Vocoder in the PCB Pile, I would be jumping on this.


You know how it is: the only thing better than owning a vocoder is owning two vocoders :-)
Satanoid
Looking really interesting, but I'm already running out of space.
Dr Gris
Holy shit!!!
Impressive woah woah woah

//M
Grooverman
glubsch wrote:
In general I am thinking of selling a combo of PCBs and the front panel, probably starting out with a limited run of 12 sets (PCB + front panel) to get this going.




Does this mean You're going to make "pre-run" of 12 sets and then a bigger "production-run" or will it be more limited to the first 12 set? I would really like to get in on this but I feel that I'm not that well suited to "beta-test" or help ironing out faults…


But really nice sound in this, and it looks awesome!!! Great job!
Grooverman
glubsch wrote:
In general I am thinking of selling a combo of PCBs and the front panel, probably starting out with a limited run of 12 sets (PCB + front panel) to get this going.




Does this mean You're going to make "pre-run" of 12 sets and then a bigger "production-run" or will it be more limited to the first 12 set? I would really like to get in on this but I feel that I'm not that well suited to "beta-test" or help ironing out faults…


But really nice sound in this, and it looks awesome!!! Great job!
audiohawk
Awesome!
When the time comes, count me in for one set.
Thank you for your work we're not worthy
glubsch
First off, thanks for all the kudos. All the feedback through this forum and email is very encouraging.

Grooverman, The first twelve wigglers would get a discount. After that, I'd sell the PCB+front panel combo at a regular price. Instead of calling it limited run, let me use your wording and call it "discounted pre-run". The idea is to get this off the ground quickly, and while I think there's no need to beta test the hardware, I would count on the first 12 wigglers to help work out the kinks from the documentation. For those who join the first 12, I would provide intense support as I really don't want anyone to be disappointed with this project.
glubsch
So here's the front panel, adjusted for size (width 483 mm, height 132.5 mm, depth 3 mm). It contains screw holes that fit the rack from Hifi2000 ("Slim Line 03/230 3U") and screw holes for handles from Schroff (catalog number 20860-258).

This panel and the PCBs would be part of the discounted pre-run.

HighLordFixer
looks completely fabulous!
throw some prices at use when you do more math
so we can then do some math
so the cv ins/outs functions like the bode/moog vocoder?
glubsch
HighLordFixer
I haven't checked the CV in/outs from the Bode/Moog vocoder series.

You can get that information from Technical Details section of the brochure. In essence: the CV controls for the internal excitation sections are 1 V/oct, allowing you to control from 0...10 V (though using the associated frequency range (10 octaves) doesn't make a lot of sense in a vocoder). The CV in/outs from the patch bay work from 0...5 V. I couldn't let it go all the way to 10 V as it essentially wouldn't leave any headroom for the envelope followers (The operating voltage of the vocoder is +/-12 V). The LED peak indicators are configured to have the LEDs fully illuminate at 5 V.
glubsch
I am in the middle of preparing a document with general information about the BOM and sourcing parts. While preparing, I shot this photo. It shows you the recessed placement of the pots in the front panel. As you can see, this helps placing the Davies knobs very close to the surface of the front panel, making it look much more professional.

Leverkusen
Looks great indeed! But I can't figure out how the pots are attached to the frontplate, or aren't they?
glubsch
Leverkusen wrote:
Looks great indeed! But I can't figure out how the pots are attached to the frontplate, or aren't they?


Take another close look at the picture above, it's the nut that comes with the pot. As a regular wrench will not fit in the whole, I had someone create a custom socket with a 3D printer. I will include this custom socket for each panel. I didn't want to create a wider recess as it otherwise wouldn't be covered by the slim Davies knobs.

The socket in the picture has some stains from its frequent use. I hope it is not too hard to see what it actually looks like.

needspeed
i am in for sure after building 7 Deckards Dreams I need a change of pace Hee hee hee...... Steve
glubsch
needspeed wrote:
i am in for sure after building 7 Deckards Dreams I need a change of pace Hee hee hee...... Steve


Uh, ok... I had to look this up as I didn't know what Deckard's Dream actually is. You must have some special permissions or something as they are on preorder, right?
tjs
It never stops... Impressive!
needspeed
glubsch wrote:
needspeed wrote:
i am in for sure after building 7 Deckards Dreams I need a change of pace Hee hee hee...... Steve


Uh, ok... I had to look this up as I didn't know what Deckard's Dream actually is. You must have some special permissions or something as they are on preorder, right?


DDRM Kit here and also can be ordered pre-built here: DDRM Kit

No U do not need permission for new runs. The locked ones are closed runs that are yet to be completed.

They are on rev 2 now so that is in pre-order I have build all Rev 1s so far.....Steve
glubsch
Back on topic: would wigglers expect using their own power supplies? The vocoder requires +/-12 V at about 1.2 A each polarity. To give it some reserve, I'd suggest 1.5 A per polarity at a minimum. I've designed a supply that dissipates surprisingly little heat if a +/-12 V transformer is used.

I'm wondering though if it is more economic (and also safer to the end user) to use a commercially available supply, maybe an SMPS. I've had little luck finding such a power supply online. Who can give me some leads?
Thalassa
And what about using an external psu and an internal DC / DC converter ?
glubsch
Thalassa wrote:
And what about using an external psu and an internal DC / DC converter ?


Can you give me a hint what this would actually look like? A specific example?

Edited to say: I've just looked it up and I don't see how this could be an economical solution. The DC/DC converter would have to be supplied by an external power supply providing DC voltage, right? At a power rating of ~40 W, the DC/DC converter alone is about 50€. I am looking at the JCK4012D12. It appears to be a buck/boost converter as it allows 9 V as minimum input voltage.

I will keep investigating...
Thalassa
It's the typical external transformer like on the laptops . The input is 110-240v and output for example 24V DC. Inside of the vocoder will be a DC /DC converter that will transform the 24Vdc in +/- 12V .
Thalassa
glubsch wrote:
I've just looked it up and I don't see how this could be an economical solution. The DC/DC converter would have to be supplied by an external power supply providing DC voltage, right? At a power rating of ~40 W, the DC/DC converter alone is about 50€. I am looking at the JCK4012D12. It appears to be a buck/boost converter as it allows 9 V as minimum input voltage.

I will keep investigating...


It's a safe solution because no dangerous voltages are present inside of the vocoder but as you said is not cheap.
julian
Is there a problem with having a power board that the end builder wires their toroidal to?

A project like this is hardly a beginners build, and i would have thought that any constructor would be competent to include mains voltages / earthing etc within their unit.
Thalassa
BTW how your prototype version is powered? Can't you use it in the final design?. As Julian said this is not a begginners project smile
paterursus
Just one person's opinion here - if there is room inside the case I would prefer a linear PSU inside with an IEC connector outside. It's tidier and more professional-looking. If you found standard parts you could create a shield for the dangerous mains side.
glubsch
Thalassa wrote:
glubsch wrote:
I've just looked it up and I don't see how this could be an economical solution. The DC/DC converter would have to be supplied by an external power supply providing DC voltage, right? At a power rating of ~40 W, the DC/DC converter alone is about 50€. I am looking at the JCK4012D12. It appears to be a buck/boost converter as it allows 9 V as minimum input voltage.

I will keep investigating...


It's a safe solution because no dangerous voltages are present inside of the vocoder but as you said is not cheap.


OK, you just gave me an important hint. I didn't realize that the DC/DC converters don't need dual input supply for delivering dual output. According to the datasheet for the JCK4012D12, A 12 VDC supply providing up to 3.7 A will suffice. A simple 12 VDC switching table top supply delivering 5 A is about 20...30€. The required 68 µH choke is only a couple of Euros.

I'm not sure how to interpret the maximum capacitive load of the JCK4012D12 (+/-1200 µF). Need to investigate further...
glubsch
OK, I see more posts have come up in the meantime while I was preparing my previous post. To answer them all: yes, my current power supply concept uses a toroidal transformer inside the rack, followed by a linear PSU based on the MIC29300-12WT and Schottky diodes (combined with some beefy electrolytic caps). The toroidal is just 2x 12 V, therefore the power dissipation is quite acceptable. Hardly any ripple at the PSU output (I had to put major effort in a clean PCB design to ensure this). The caveat: There's mains power inside the rack.

BTW, here's a picture of the power board:

glubsch
Thalassa, what’s the temperature right now in Spain?
julian
glubsch wrote:
OK, I see more posts have come up in the meantime while I was preparing my previous post. To answer them all: yes, my current power supply concept uses a toroidal transformer inside the rack, followed by a linear PSU based on the MIC29300-12WT and Schottky diodes (combined with some beefy electrolytic caps). The toroidal is just 2x 12 V, therefore the power dissipation is quite acceptable. Hardly any ripple at the PSU output (I had to put major effort in a clean PCB design to ensure this). The caveat: There's mains power inside the rack.

BTW, here's a picture of the power board:



This would, to me, really seem the best option - this psu design has stood the test of time, no 'special' components etc. and, as i say, anyone who can assemble the rest of the unit, can surely make sure the high voltages are correctly isolated.
Thalassa
glubsch wrote:
Thalassa, what’s the temperature right now in Spain?

Where I live today will be 38 but during the weekend was 40 Dead Banana

Coming back to the topic your PSU looks like a good solution for me. thumbs up
glubsch
A fellow wiggler gave me the hint that the vertical text on the left ("18-Channel Analog Stereo Vocoder and Formant System") may be in the way of the screw holes for those of you who want to place them at a different position. Who'd actually be interested in NOT using the suggested rack? I'm trying to get a feel for whether I need to offer the panel generally without the rack screw holes.

Personally, I'd prefer to have the front panel shipped completely finished if I started this DIY project. I don't have the precision tools to drill holes into the front panel myself but what about you?

Where else would it make sense to place the text? Underneath the handles? Suggestions are welcome.

paterursus
I would prefer the rack/case solution you have shown so far. I personally have no need for the screw holes in a different position. BTW I also like the power supply configuration you have used.
glubsch
OK, fellow wigglers, here's a new teaser. This is the complete list of semiconductor devices (except for the LEDs) used in the vocoder. It's a direct excerpt from the BOM.



I've spent some time over the weekend to create a general overview (sort of a preamble) of the BOM. You can find it here. I hope this gives you a first glimpse of what to expect for this DIY project.

Some comments about the table shown above: The MC33079 are used for the 18 channel filters with the intent to reduce noise. If you prefer, you can just as well use the TL074 if you don't mind the extra noise. The THAT300 are used for the 1V/oct converters on the internal excitation boards. The MIC29300-12WT and the SB540 are used for the regulated power supply. The JFETs are used for analog switching purposes (such as in the voiced/unvoiced detector to switch between the excitation signals and the noise sources).
ben_hex
This looks amazing!
paterursus
glubsch wrote:
OK, fellow wigglers, here's a new teaser. This is the complete list of semiconductor devices (except for the LEDs) used in the vocoder. It's a direct excerpt from the BOM.



I've spent some time over the weekend to create a general overview (sort of a preamble) of the BOM. You can find it here. I hope this gives you a first glimpse of what to expect for this DIY project.

Some comments about the table shown above: The MC33079 are used for the 18 channel filters with the intent to reduce noise. If you prefer, you can just as well use the TL074 if you don't mind the extra noise. The THAT300 are used for the 1V/oct converters on the internal excitation boards. The MIC29300-12WT and the SB540 are used for the regulated power supply. The JFETs are used for analog switching purposes (such as in the voiced/unvoiced detector to switch between the excitation signals and the noise sources).

This looks really doable! All the ICs seem pretty generally accessible. Nice job on the start to the BOM! I'm more and more excited for this.
Ayab
Excellent project. Count me in for 1 x set of pcb's and a panel
Dr Gris
Maybe I'm confused...
I see talk about rack ears and handles.
I don't get the point of handles.
What the front panel really need are holes for mounting it in a 19" rack.
In the last pic I don't see any. Just the holes for the case (Hifi2000) and the not needed handles.
Or am I wrong??

//M
paterursus
Dr Gris wrote:
Maybe I'm confused...
I see talk about rack ears and handles.
I don't get the point of handles.
What the front panel really need are holes for mounting it in a 19" rack.
In the last pic I don't see any. Just the holes for the case (Hifi2000) and the not needed handles.
Or am I wrong??

//M

If you look at glubsch's post above on this page, the panel drawing is wider than the one in the photo on the first page. The two additional holes on both outer edges appear to be the rack holes on ears. The inner screw holes look to be the ones for the case.
At least that's how it looks to me. Would be good to get it clarified.
Dr Gris
paterursus wrote:
Dr Gris wrote:
Maybe I'm confused...
I see talk about rack ears and handles.
I don't get the point of handles.
What the front panel really need are holes for mounting it in a 19" rack.
In the last pic I don't see any. Just the holes for the case (Hifi2000) and the not needed handles.
Or am I wrong??

//M

If you look at glubsch's post above on this page, the panel drawing is wider than the one in the photo on the first page. The two additional holes on both outer edges appear to be the rack holes on ears. The inner screw holes look to be the ones for the case.
At least that's how it looks to me. Would be good to get it clarified.


I guess you're right, the talk of handles made me think the outer holes was for those.
And by looking at the pic the outer holes looks to be too far from the edges to fit standard 19" mounting, but that could be me being fooled...

//M
paterursus
Now that you mention it, they do look a bit too far from the edges. Hopefully glubsch can clear it up.
glubsch, the panel will have ears for mounting in a 19-inch rack, right?
dingebre
Here are some screen captures from a Front Panel Designer (Front Panel Express/Schaffer) .FPD file. The FPD file is also attached. It is a standard Schroff 19 inch wide panel with standard holes. I arbitrarily selected a 2.0mm thickness and 3U high. The rack holes should at least be elongated to allow for tolerances in rack widths. The information box in the top left corner of each image has the dimensions and locations of the individual holes on the left side. The right side would be a mirror of the left. Obviously, other mounting holes may or may not be needed depending on the enclosure and other constraints. Not everyone will want a rack mount, either (like me smile )

The software is a free download and will at least give the proper dimensions and locations for the mounting holes for the rack and for handles if those are wanted. These files are only examples which I hope will help.

David
glubsch
I'm currently on travel, hence my late reply. I mentioned in an earlier post that I needed some help with the dimensions. dingebre, your FPD is of great help. Thanks a lot.

The panel I prepared was with the holes for the Schroff handles but not with the elongated holes for rack mounting purposes. I'll be updating the front panel over the weekend.
glubsch
I guess the handles need the size that match the holes for enclosure. There's no need for extra screw holes.
dingebre
glubsch wrote:
I'm currently on travel, hence my late reply. I mentioned in an earlier post that I needed some help with the dimensions. dingebre, your FPD is of great help. Thanks a lot.

The panel I prepared was with the holes for the Schroff handles but not with the elongated holes for rack mounting purposes. I'll be updating the front panel over the weekend.


You're very welcome. The images are only a "preliminary" guide, but I have found the software to be reliable and accurate.

Thank you for making the project available. I am following with great interest.

David
guest
glubsch - first off, great work on this. it looks like years have gone into this. ive been following the thread, and noticed that there were not enough standard VCA chips in your BOM for 18 channels. it looks like youre doing a PWM multiplier for the VCA? if you have time/inclination, id love to hear about the design tradeoffs you considered when coming to the decision about how to implement your VCAs.
glubsch
guest wrote:
glubsch - first off, great work on this. it looks like years have gone into this. ive been following the thread, and noticed that there were not enough standard VCA chips in your BOM for 18 channels. it looks like youre doing a PWM multiplier for the VCA? if you have time/inclination, id love to hear about the design tradeoffs you considered when coming to the decision about how to implement your VCAs.


Oh, you are the great dude who wrote the paper "Minimizing Distortion in Operational Transconductance Amplifiers", aren't you!? I read it with great interest, probably more than a year ago, after some time of learning and designing my own modulars using the LM13700, looking for solutions to minimize noise. I used the LM13700 for my first incarnation of the vocoder but looked for an alternative after having been unhappy with the noise adding to the audio and the bleedthrough. When I looked for an alternative for the VCA, I came across Elliott's page. So, yes, it is a PWM-based VCA, based on the principles shown in Elliott's Figure 11.

The 18x CD4053 on the list of ICs should have given it away hihi
glubsch
Below is the updated front panel design based on dingebre's FPD template.

I still need some help though. The screw holes are placed for the panel to fit the Slim Line 3U Case. They have a center-to-center spacing of 105 mm. The handles that are supposed to fit are available here. Can someone tell me how they are supposed to be attached to the front panel? Are they supposed to sit over top of the holes meant for the panel to be screwed onto the enclosure? hmmm..... help

.
D33K
Awesome work OP. Did you consider making a modular design where individual channels could be added/removed? It may be have been feasible without the the controls on the bottom
glubsch
D33K wrote:
Awesome work OP. Did you consider making a modular design where individual channels could be added/removed? It may be have been feasible without the the controls on the bottom


I thought about it at first but found it too cumbersome to come up with a reasonable design. That was more than 2 years ago when I thought about it so I don't remember specifically what made me decide against it. I think it was mostly the fact that the 18 channel filter boards need to be interconnected. That is actually accomplished via a 16-wire ribbon cable.
D33K
glubsch wrote:
D33K wrote:
Awesome work OP. Did you consider making a modular design where individual channels could be added/removed? It may be have been feasible without the the controls on the bottom


I thought about it at first but found it too cumbersome to come up with a reasonable design. That was more than 2 years ago when I thought about it so I don't remember specifically what made me decide against it. I think it was mostly the fact that the 18 channel filter boards need to be interconnected. That is actually accomplished via a 16-wire ribbon cable.


Great work regardless. It seems like you had a modularilty in mind with the way the channels are designed. Thanks for sharing
truman_k
I always dreamed of getting a fully blown analogue vocoder. Here is the one that is do-able. Not spending a huge amt of money in getting the expensive THAT chips.
guest
glubsch wrote:
The 18x CD4053 on the list of ICs should have given it away


yeah, that and the large "PWM" on the silkscreen!! ive been looking into PWM multipliers for a while now, and am suprised i dont see more of them in synth projects. what was the noise floor on the PWM version versus the LM13700? and did you consider the SSM2164 at all?

im glad you read the paper. a fair bit of work went into that, and its always nice to hear that others have gotten some use out of it.
glubsch
truman_k wrote:
I always dreamed of getting a fully blown analogue vocoder. Here is the one that is do-able. Not spending a huge amt of money in getting the expensive THAT chips.

Yes, these are the only ICs that are a bit more expensive than the others but there are only two of them and they are easy to find. In fact, as I generally was looking for a design based on easily procurable parts, I even sent an email to THAT Corp and asked about whether I need to worry about the THAT320 (not used in the vocoder) going end-of-life at some point. The email reply was prompt and I felt assured there are no plans to take the transistor arrays off the market.

Having made the statement about easy procurement though, I've been caught by surprise that the LM3916 is no more available. My intention though is to sell the first PCBs based on my design using the LM3916 and replace it with a different design later.
glubsch
guest wrote:
glubsch wrote:
The 18x CD4053 on the list of ICs should have given it away


yeah, that and the large "PWM" on the silkscreen!! ive been looking into PWM multipliers for a while now, and am suprised i dont see more of them in synth projects. what was the noise floor on the PWM version versus the LM13700? and did you consider the SSM2164 at all?

im glad you read the paper. a fair bit of work went into that, and its always nice to hear that others have gotten some use out of it.


I used a fairly non-scientific way to judge the noise: I simply listened to the results and thought I can do better hihi. I am quite pleased with the PWM-based solution. However, I don't want to leave a false impression and make it very clear to the community: this design is analog and therefore there's still noise. The VU's are there to help set the input signals (Voice and Carrier) high enough for the output signal to be as far away from the noise floor as possible. I've been quite content with the noise levels and therefore decided not to include a compandor. cool

I dismissed using the SSM2164 in general for a number of simple reasons: they are hard to come by and expensive, and if you can get them, they are only available as SMD (the only SMD parts used in this vocoder are the decoupling capacitors and those for the 8-pole filters). Besides, they'd be an overkill for this design.
glubsch
**********************
*** BOM now available ***
**********************


Alright, there are now two documents available:
    1) A PDF that contains the complete assembly tables and the BOM.
    2) An Excel spreadsheet that I've built up over the last couple of years and that I've just updated with the latest component cost.
I believe for many of you the spreadsheet is of strong interest as it essentially gives you and indication about the total cost for the BOM. But it is also harder to read as I have not really spent the time yet to provide a lot of information.

Note that the PDF is compiled directly from the Excel spreadsheet.

Over the next days I want to see what questions you have related to these two new documents. After that I want to shift focus to giving you more information about the schematics.
Revok
This is some top notch documentation thumbs up
Thalassa
glubsch wrote:
As you can see, this helps placing the Davies knobs very close to the surface of the front panel, making it look much more professional.



What tool are you using for tightening those nuts ? In the picture looks like there is no enough space to use a socket wrench hmmm.....

Do you have an estimated date when the project will be available ?

and BTW amazing work !
glubsch
Revok wrote:
This is some top notch documentation thumbs up

Thanks for the nice feedback.

Thalassa wrote:
What tool are you using for tightening those nuts? In the picture looks like there is no enough space to use a socket wrench hmmm.....

Do you have an estimated date when the project will be available?

and BTW amazing work!


Check out post #11 on the second page. I'll provide a 3D printed socket.

I am thinking about publishing modalities and the cost for the PCBs + front panel in the next two to three weeks.

Also thanks to you for your nice comment.
Thalassa
glubsch wrote:
Check out post #11 on the second page. I'll provide a 3D printed socket


upps , I didn't see it d'oh! Don't get me wrong but I don't think that this is good idea for several reasons. Indeed it looks nice but if you are going to sell kits the use of custom made tools can give you a lot of troubles. Imagine what will happen if one person break the socket, if the plastic wear out or in a couple of years you need to dissemble a pcb for repair and you lost the socket... The result is that you will have people complaining about it. Also think that for every kit that you sell you need to print one socket and it will be time consuming.

Another reason is the price, I can imagine that adding the recessed hole to the front panel increase the front panel costs quite a bit. I don't mind to have the knob floating 2mm apart from the front panel. Most of the modules and synthesizers are made like these.

I think that you should ask the people what they will prefer, a cheaper and easy to mount front panel or a more expensive one that will require a custom made tool.

As I told you before don't get me wrong you have made an amazing job with the vocoder and even maybe I would had made myself the same with the front panel if it was a one off design but when you want to design something to sell you should have in consideration this kind of small things.

BTW , this is a picture of one module with the same kind of knobs. As you can see the knob doesn't look so separated from the front panel and it's a 1,5mm font panel.
dingebre
I like the recessed nut. The 3D file for the socket can be uploaded to any number of 3D printing services and spare sockets printed if needed. It looks like a standard “thin wall” socket might also work.

Plus, people will complain no matter what is done... smile

David
Thalassa
dingebre wrote:
Plus, people will complain no matter what is done... smile


Yes it's true , just look at me Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green
dingebre
Thalassa wrote:
dingebre wrote:
Plus, people will complain no matter what is done... smile


Yes it's true , just look at me Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green


hihi
cygmu
I feel a bit impertinent to ask this, because I will almost certainly not build one of these, but what does the recessed nut secure to? Is the panel only partially drilled out (i.e. recessed, I suppose) at that point?
julian
cygmu wrote:
I feel a bit impertinent to ask this, because I will almost certainly not build one of these, but what does the recessed nut secure to? Is the panel only partially drilled out (i.e. recessed, I suppose) at that point?


Yes, panel is slightly, but not fully cut through.
glubsch
Thalassa wrote:
dingebre wrote:
Plus, people will complain no matter what is done... smile


Yes it's true , just look at me Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green

No worries. I don't see this as a complaint at all. If I get input on what can be improved, I'll certainly consider it. One thing I've learned though in the few weeks that I've been part of this community is that there are a lot of suggestions (many through email) that are often contradicted by other input. If you ask 10 people, you get 12 opinions. hihi

Specifically to your point: the socket is easy to reproduce. You can store it inside the case so you don't lose it (and wonder after a few years what's started to rattle inside the vocoder). And if you really prefer the knobs sticking out for easier access of the nuts, add a couple of extra washers. Just glue some felt on the socket to make sure you don't scratch the surface of the front panel.

I think the way it is now makes it look more professional.

cygmu wrote:
I feel a bit impertinent to ask this, because I will almost certainly not build one of these, but what does the recessed nut secure to? Is the panel only partially drilled out (i.e. recessed, I suppose) at that point?

Julian has already given some explanation. Just as some additional info, the recess, or maybe better called cavity, is cut 1.7 mm into the 3 mm deep panel.
Thalassa
glubsch wrote:
And if you really prefer the knobs sticking out for easier access of the nuts, add a couple of extra washers.


You have a point there thumbs up
paterursus
I get Thalassa's point, and I'll probably lose the tool. That being said, I still prefer the recessed look.
Sandrine
I have heavy thin tipped needle nose pliers that would do these in a pinch
Of course I have a 3D printer so it's a non-issue

BTW amazing project! Count me in as interested
glubsch
Sandrine wrote:
I have heavy thin tipped needle nose pliers that would do these in a pinch
Of course I have a 3D printer so it's a non-issue

BTW amazing project! Count me in as interested

Thanks for your comment. I have a similar pliers though yours might be thinner at the tips than mine. I used them before I had the 3D-printed socket and had to make sure I don't slip and scratch the front panel surface. I think you just don't get the nuts tightened as much as with a proper socket.
LektroiD
I can see myself running into problems with the recessed pots, as I always use T-18 pots and knobs, I don't like the offcentre turning circle of the set screw type, plus they cost more for the knobs due to having brass inserts, so I bought a few thousand T-18 knobs and pots of every value and size a few years ago. The knobs would undoubtedly leave a circular rash on the panel, as they always push on so far, no amount of washers would cure that.

I wonder if there's another way of having the pots bolted to the panel, rather than recessed. It's surely cheaper to manufacture without recessing them?
tobb
The recessed nuts is indeed a very bad idea + you still can see them,so totally useless,the better solution is a double front panel but the shaft length may be to short,or you have to use collet knobs.
paterursus
From the pictures I've seen, you can see them only when the knobs are removed.
glubsch
LektroiD wrote:
I can see myself running into problems with the recessed pots, as I always use T-18 pots and knobs, I don't like the offcentre turning circle of the set screw type, plus they cost more for the knobs due to having brass inserts, so I bought a few thousand T-18 knobs and pots of every value and size a few years ago. The knobs would undoubtedly leave a circular rash on the panel, as they always push on so far, no amount of washers would cure that.

I wonder if there's another way of having the pots bolted to the panel, rather than recessed. It's surely cheaper to manufacture without recessing them?

So you are a perfectionist hihi I noticed the off-center rotation too and was looking into D-type and T18's because of the same reasons you've mentioned. But I wanted to make sure to use as widely available material as possible. Keep in mind that a couple of stereo pots are needed and that the pots need to line up with the plugs. So what you see in the BOM is what I ended up with.

However, if you do have T18's that are available in stereo, that can be soldered directly into the PCBs, and that line up well with the 6.35 mm and 3.5 mm plugs, please tell me about them and I'll seriously consider them.
glubsch
paterursus wrote:
From the pictures I've seen, you can see them only when the knobs are removed.

paterursus, thanks for pointing this out.

Tobb, just look at my web page where I've posted two pictures at a fairly steep angle and rejudge.

With the cavities shown, there's about one millimeter space between the knob and the surface of the panel. If the Davies knobs had a larger inset and the screws moved farther from the base, you could get the Davies knobs even closer. If there were collared knobs with a max diameter of 13 mm at the base of the knob, I'd switch to those. The panel is populated quite tightly, so larger knobs won't do.
LektroiD
glubsch wrote:
LektroiD wrote:
I can see myself running into problems with the recessed pots, as I always use T-18 pots and knobs, I don't like the offcentre turning circle of the set screw type, plus they cost more for the knobs due to having brass inserts, so I bought a few thousand T-18 knobs and pots of every value and size a few years ago. The knobs would undoubtedly leave a circular rash on the panel, as they always push on so far, no amount of washers would cure that.

I wonder if there's another way of having the pots bolted to the panel, rather than recessed. It's surely cheaper to manufacture without recessing them?

So you are a perfectionist hihi I noticed the off-center rotation too and was looking into D-type and T18's because of the same reasons you've mentioned. But I wanted to make sure to use as widely available material as possible. Keep in mind that a couple of stereo pots are needed and that the pots need to line up with the plugs. So what you see in the BOM is what I ended up with.

However, if you do have T18's that are available in stereo, that can be soldered directly into the PCBs, and that line up well with the 6.35 mm and 3.5 mm plugs, please tell me about them and I'll seriously consider them.


The only stereo kinds I have are these (in various values). I know One is a D shaft, but better than set screw for the above reasons.
Revok
I am a huge fan of the recessed nut and with the size of this project I don't think that added cost on the panel is a price concern. It's whether or not I can afford the rest of the stuff Dead Banana
glubsch
LedtroiD, I have a series of the T18 shown in your picture on the right in mono. For the reasons mentioned in my previous post, they won‘t work for the bundle I am planning to sell (PCBs + front panel).
tobb
glubsch wrote:
paterursus wrote:
From the pictures I've seen, you can see them only when the knobs are removed.

paterursus, thanks for pointing this out.

Tobb, just look at my web page where I've posted two pictures at a fairly steep angle and rejudge.


well the steep angle is the 'problem',i see the cavity and the nut sitting there,no miracles..you can't hide the nuts properly with this assembly,that's is why i wrote that its a bad idea,because you still can see them.

+ the cavity will be just a dust/dirt collector over time...!

Its not big problem until the day a guy need to change a potmeter because its crashing and have no access to the nut.

keep in mint other scenarios,like built vocoders sold,then the new owner has a problem and send it for service...

BTW,your diy proposal is with Davies knobs ,but builders will use all kind of knobs,if using metal alu knobs available at Banzai effects & Smallbear ,those are less fluted then the Davies and you will see more easy the cavity+nut.

Rogan knobs are an alternative for the Davies and might cover completely cavity,your vocoder will also look 50% nicer..try!
LektroiD
glubsch wrote:
LedtroiD, I have a series of the T18 shown in your picture on the right in mono.


Yes, I do too, thousands of them.

Your question wasn't about mono, you asked about stereo which could be soldered to a PCB, so I showed you the basic stereo pots I have which can both be soldered to a PCB. I also have centre tapped stereo which are PCB mounted, but I doubt these are applicable, so I didn't photograph them. Neither did I photograph my stock of mono pots, because you only asked about stereo pots which can be soldered to a PCB. Now you're asking about mono ones too?

glubsch wrote:
However, if you do have T18's that are available in stereo, that can be soldered directly into the PCBs, and that line up well with the 6.35 mm and 3.5 mm plugs, please tell me about them and I'll seriously consider them.
LektroiD
It appears the general consensus here is not to have the cavity/recess on the pots. Maybe this project could be offered also as PCB only, that way we can design and fabricate our own panels to suit.
glubsch
I assumed that the mono pots are from the same series. Even if they are not, The stereo pots need to line up with the other pots and the jacks.
glubsch
LektroiD wrote:
It appears the general consensus here is not to have the cavity/recess on the pots. Maybe this project could be offered also as PCB only, that way we can design and fabricate our own panels to suit.

To allow a discounted pre-run I plan to stick to the following bundle: PCBs + panel (recessed pots) + custom socket.

There are a number of reasons that I prefer to do it that way and it sums up to simplicity and manageability. Things may change after the pre-run, but I'd be really happy if you decided to be part of the first 12 wigglers building this vocoder.
LektroiD
glubsch wrote:
LektroiD wrote:
It appears the general consensus here is not to have the cavity/recess on the pots. Maybe this project could be offered also as PCB only, that way we can design and fabricate our own panels to suit.

To allow a discounted pre-run I plan to stick to the following bundle: PCBs + panel (recessed pots) + custom socket.

There are a number of reasons that I prefer to do it that way and it sums up to simplicity and manageability. Things may change after the pre-run, but I'd be really happy if you decided to be part of the first 12 wigglers building this vocoder.


Count me in for one of the first 12, price dependent of course... Do you have a rough figure in mind? If you don't want to discuss prices at the moment, feel free to PM me...
glubsch
I've just updated the BOM to include the 3U 19" enclosure that fits with the PCBs for the 18 channel filters and the front panel.
dingebre
LektroiD wrote:
It appears the general consensus here is not to have the cavity/recess on the pots. Maybe this project could be offered also as PCB only, that way we can design and fabricate our own panels to suit.
I think that any "consensus" is only asking to be broken hyper, I love the recessed pots.

David
paterursus
LektroiD wrote:
It appears the general consensus here is not to have the cavity/recess on the pots. Maybe this project could be offered also as PCB only, that way we can design and fabricate our own panels to suit.

I think the consensus is mixed at best. There's been support on both sides, pretty evenly.
acgenerator
glubsch wrote:

To allow a discounted pre-run I plan to stick to the following bundle: PCBs + panel (recessed pots) + custom socket.

There are a number of reasons that I prefer to do it that way and it sums up to simplicity and manageability. Things may change after the pre-run, but I'd be really happy if you decided to be part of the first 12 wigglers building this vocoder.


I'm also interested but need a rough idea of the price of the bundle +whatever the BOm adds up to.
GryphonP3
I am completely in for pcb/panel/case even though I was supposed to stop building anything for myself to finish music
glubsch
acgenerator wrote:
glubsch wrote:

To allow a discounted pre-run I plan to stick to the following bundle: PCBs + panel (recessed pots) + custom socket.

There are a number of reasons that I prefer to do it that way and it sums up to simplicity and manageability. Things may change after the pre-run, but I'd be really happy if you decided to be part of the first 12 wigglers building this vocoder.


I'm also interested but need a rough idea of the price of the bundle +whatever the BOm adds up to.

For the bundle price, please give me another couple of weeks while I am sorting out things. Regarding the BOM, have you had a chance to take a look at the spreadsheet? That should give you a good indicator.
glubsch
GryphonP3 wrote:
I am completely in for pcb/panel/case even though I was supposed to stop building anything for myself to finish music

OK, I am not sure whether I should feel guilty because I am distracting you from your creativity but you probably have a couple more months to focus on your music because first I have to announce the conditions and the pricing, a dozen wigglers will have to sign up and do a prepayment, after which I will have to order the PCBs and the front panel, and then I'll have to ship everything out.
nanners
luchog
This definitely sounds like a project I would be interested in. Love the sound of it. No strong opinion either way on the recessed pots.

Would love to be able to pick up one of the first 12 bundles, but not sure how much time I'll have to put it together, so I may need to wait until the production run.
skot_e
This looks like many hours of build time... eek!
A project and a half applause
spotta
I need to register my interest for this, I’ve built the L-1 vocoder in the past but sold it when offered big money when my credit card needed sorting seriously, i just don't get it

Money is still tight as the kids keep growing but if I have some when the project is a go then it’s yours.
yan6
I'm in as well, although I had previously identified that via email.
glubsch
yan6
Love your techno beats and electronic music, particularly considering it's all analog. Just listened to your various techno music and JaMMy's Reset Rotation while working on the construction manual.
yan6
oops wow thanks man, I cant wait to add you piece of gear to my workflow thumbs up
paterursus
Hey glubsch, the resistors in the BOM appear to be around 3.5mm in length. Can you confirm that is what is needed? Is 1/8W ok where 1/4W is not specified? Thanks!
glubsch
paterursus wrote:
Hey glubsch, the resistors in the BOM appear to be around 3.5mm in length. Can you confirm that is what is needed? Is 1/8W ok where 1/4W is not specified? Thanks!

Take a look at the PDF shown in the first post, page 2, the section about resistors: yes, the intent is to use ~3.1 mm resistors for ease of assembly (size 0204). You will likely find most of the E48 resistors for the 18 filter channel boards only in size 0207 (~6.3 mm). In the PDF it also says 125 mW (1/8 W) unless noted otherwise.
paterursus
That's how I had read the BOM - thanks for clearing it up. By the way, count me in for the first 12 run.
yan6
https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=6014 5dfc0f

I made this this afternoon, there are probably a few errors and I didn't find alternates to the backordered items. There were only a few and shouldn't be too challenging. Also note that the following items are not in the cart:

LM3916
MC33079
MIC29300-12WT
2k Tempco
Pots
IC Sockets
Jacks
Board connectors
Or any of the Misc. labeled items

Also note that you could cut costs a bit by removing items that could be found a Tayda. Such as common IC's, Caps and common values of the 1/4w resistors.

Hopefully this help someone out Dead Banana
glubsch
yan6, thanks a lot for spending the time preparing this Mouser basket. This is really cool.
  • I've ordered 10 of the LM3916 from a sell in Hongkong on ebay and have yet to receive them. They were sent on August 17 but I have no tracking number, so I don't really know when they will arrive. If it turns out they work well, I will order enough for the discounted run.
  • MC33079: Mouser still has more than 2000 in stock (here). There are also about 600 available at Digikey (here). Farnell in Europe seems to have them on backorder with shown availability beginning of October. Rochester Electronics has more than 16k.
  • The MIC29300-12WT is available at Digikey here.
  • The pots are available from Smallbear in the U.S (mono version here, stereo version here). You can also get the mono pots from Erthenvar (here). In the EU you can get the mono pots from Thonk (here) and the stereo pots from banzaimusic (here).
  • The 2kΩ tempco is available at Thonk (here). I found one source in the US, ModularAddict (here).
  • In the US, the CL13845G jacks are available at Newark (here). If you don't need gold-plated contacts, you can buy the alternative CL1384.
  • Do you want to add the board connectors to the Mouser basket? They are readily available: 16-pin header, 4-pin header and the 16-pin wire-to-board connector.
glubsch
UPDATE: I just went through yan6's Mouser project, compared it against the BOM, made a couple of minor updates and additions. This list now covers all IC's (except the LM3916), transistors, diodes, LEDs, all capacitors and resistors (except the tempcos) and the trimmers. Thanks again, yan6, for doing the groundwork.
Modulart_JP
T18 shaft pots that should do the job are available from Mouser.
100K lin single gang:
https://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/652-PTD901-2015KB104

100K log single gang:
https://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/652-PTD901-2015KA104

100K log dual gang:
https://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/652-PTD9021015KA104

And it seems they are cheaper.

I'm really interested in this project.
However, I think you should stick to provide only PCBs.
Such a panel made by Schaeffer will be very expensive and many people might prefer to go for a local manufacturer.
Also, the choice of an enclosure not being widely available is not the best, IMO.
Again, with people making their own panel, it is possible to source a suitable enclosure locally at a better price.
I can have a 3U rack enclosure from my local RS for about 35 EUR.
If I buy the panel from you and it is not compatible, I'll have to order the HIFI2000 rack from the few places where it is available for sale and it will end up costing around 100 EUR...ouch.

My 2 Yens... cool
glubsch
Hi Modulart_JP, your input is worth more than 2¥. the pots you are suggesting seem to fit but do you know of knobs that fit as well and are not wider at the base than the Davies knobs (13 mm)? If there is a viable alternative, I will certainly look into it in more detail. In fact, if there were knobs small enough that covered the whole pot shaft and had a wall thin enough to cover the nuts, we'd have an alternative solution to the panel cavities/recesses.

When I started out this project, I looked for a solution that works for me and that's what I am promoting because I need to start out simple. Please stay tuned for more details.
tobb
cliff knobs and Selco will cover the nuts:

https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/intellijel-style-knobs/

https://uk.farnell.com/cliff-electronic-components/cl178882/round-knob -splined-19-3mm/dp/2473099
glubsch
tobb the only one fitting at the base at Thonk's are called "small tall". But they are only offered as D type. The one found at Farnell is simply to wide at the base.
tobb
yes,you will not find any knob xtra small with a skirt that cover the nuts

I searched years ago already for a solution when i did a 5U modular with very small panels and knobs...

So if you want to cover the nut,change the design so you can use a larger knob or you will have to stick with the special CNC holes.

Or use a double pot bracket/backplate,but then you will have to move from alu front panel to steel panel because it has to be a very thin front so the knob shafts still can stick far enough to be able to fix the knobs on it.
Oldstench
Stunning work glubsch.

I'm not much more than an advanced beginner in DIY, so this is certainly outside my skillset, but I will certainly be watching this thread with great interest.

Fantastic stuff.
Jarno
tobb wrote:

Or use a double pot bracket/backplate,but then you will have to move from alu front panel to steel panel because it has to be a very thin front so the knob shafts still can stick far enough to be able to fix the knobs on it.


I was going to suggest a "false front" for the frontpanel. Pots are fastened on the enclosure, and the frontpanel (with adequately sized holes) is mounted on the enclosure. This is how it is done on a lot of equipment. But usually those use bigger knobs, so nuts will always be covered. Are the higher knobs really that important? It is a lot of machining, and if you make the pockets big enough for the nut (and the tool!) you'll see them unless using larger knobs (or skirted ones).

Also, if the enclosure is stiff enough, you can get away with using a dibond front, which is less expensive (not sure about esthetics, although I do think you can print in photo quality on dibond).
tobb
Jarno wrote:
tobb wrote:

Or use a double pot bracket/backplate,but then you will have to move from alu front panel to steel panel because it has to be a very thin front so the knob shafts still can stick far enough to be able to fix the knobs on it.


I was going to suggest a "false front" for the frontpanel. Pots are fastened on the enclosure, and the frontpanel (with adequately sized holes) is mounted on the enclosure. This is how it is done on a lot of equipment.


Its a bad solution and the wrong way for diy

Because then you have to buy the front/enclosure and send them to the metal shop for making the holes..usually its a profiled panel so is extra machine setup costs.

Also the fake front will carry all the weight of the rack,and this can be a bad thing depending how the fake front is attached to the frame..

Best is to find like mentioned before an enclosure where a whole non profiled panel can be fit on it,that way you can simple manufacture a replacement metal (steel) front and a blank backpanel that will hold the pcb assemblies ,the only difficulty will be finding the right size spacers as tall as the nut + washer) and determination of placements of the screwholes on the front that will hold the backplate assembly.
tobb
found, 19'' rack washers!!

it works great!

These looks the same those i have (base need to be flat otherwise washer will split (and also net deep enough anyway))

Could also be used the other way,over the nut ,no tool needed then but it will be loose rotating,not that pro..

https://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=ADH5620

or these,better imo:

https://www.barenco.co.uk/m6-cup-washer-black-nylon-805006





[/img]

looks great with Rogans to!




paterursus
They look good with the black knobs, not so much so with the others. It would be great if they came in other colors.
glubsch
Tobb, thanks for the idea to use these rack washers. Bear in mind though, they'll take up a lot of space. At least enough to cover the scales. The spacing from channel to channel is 17 mm.
zephyrin
Hello

Do you have the 12 first builders ? IF not i could be interrested, i have build several Vocoder (Elektor, L1, MFOS, Okita, and JH )
glubsch
zephyrin wrote:
Hello

Do you have the 12 first builders ? IF not i could be interrested, i have build several Vocoder (Elektor, L1, MFOS, Okita, and JH )


Thanks for your interest. I have more than 12 wigglers showing strong interest but I haven't announced pricing yet. A few things need to get sorted before I can make the announcement. So keep your eyes peeled for more details on this thread.
glubsch
Progress has been a bit slow lately but there's been progress nonetheless.

I've designed a new power supply to give wigglers an alternative and avoid running mains power through the enclosure. It's a solution based on a DC/DC converter using an external tabletop transformer, such as the GST60A12-P1J. This one's quite affordable and runs on all the various household voltages found across the world.

I'll soon update the BOM accordingly and separate out the current power supply that uses the traditional LDO-based solution.

Frankly, the DC/DC converter solution, albeit a bit more expensive, has become my preference because the vocoder output produces less noise. I don't have an audio analyzer so I can't quantify it but the difference is definitely discernible.

Here's the front and the back side. The DC/DC module is actually mounted on the back side of the PCB so that it can later be mounted onto the back panel for additional cooling. That's what the four 3 mm screw holes are meant for close to the module.


glubsch
Apart from the new power supply, I've made also progress on the assembly guide. I think that one's about 30% done. Since I haven't yet received my package with a handful of LM3916 from China, I've ordered enough from the UK for the first 12 wigglers who are going to sign up for the discounted PCB run. I hope to receive them next week.
glubsch
UPDATE:

Today I've received 36x LM3916, so the VU display driver ICs for the first 12 builders are secured. I've tested three of them and they are working well. nanners

Based on all the feedback I've received, I'm now preparing some bundling options:
  • First off, there will front panel options:
    • recessed
    • non-recessed
  • There will be the option to either get the power supply PCB for the "traditional" LDO-based supply which will require you to run mains through the enclosure or use the solution based on the DC/DC converter as previously posted.
  • The bundle will also include:
    • The enclosure
    • An assembly template (more about that once I have a photo)
    • A 3D printed socket (only required for the recessed panel option)
    • The potentiometers
    • The 3.5 mm jacks (CL13845G or CL1384, depending on availability)
    • The front panel switches (H8619VBAAA, H8620VBAAA, H8601VBAA)
    • Coax cable (Lapp 2170002, required for the shielded board interconnects)
    • Connecting material (EHR-2, EHR-3, S2B-EH(LF)(SN), S3B-EH(LF)(SN), and SEH-001T-P0.6)
    • IC sockets
    • Tempcos
    • LM3916
    • Fuse holder (HTC-100M), incl. 8 A slow blow fuse (only needed for the DC/DC-converter based solution)
Pricing will finally be announced soon after I hold the panels in my hands.

With the bundling above, you essentially should be able to procure all the remaining material from Mouser or other distributors. I am not planning to add the Davies knobs as I think everyone has their own color preferences.

The assembly guide is now probably about 40% done.
tobb
Nice! thumbs up
paterursus
Will there be other bundling options? I already have IC sockets and tempcos, and I just purchased some reliable LM3916 just for this project.
glubsch
paterursus wrote:
Will there be other bundling options? I already have IC sockets and tempcos, and I just purchased some reliable LM3916 just for this project.

Yeah, I think I can do that. I don’t mind having some LM3916 left over. I can tailor the need on the sockets and the tempcos.

BTW, how do you define „reliable“? I got my LM3916 from the UK.
paterursus
I ordered mine from Quest components in the US. They specialize in obsolete parts, and I've never had a faulty component from them.
glubsch
OK, thanks for that info.
glubsch
A Bundle Request Form is now available. Once I have the final panel pricing, I'll update the content.

What you see in there is already a very good price indicator for the discounted run.

Select the options you need for your vocoder and the total price will adjust accordingly.

This weekend I will update the assembly guide with a number of photos and oscilloscope pictures to illustrate expected results during calibration. I hope I can give you a sneak preview Sunday night.
glubsch
I've made quite some progress over the weekend with the assembly guide. A number of Sections are still missing but I wanted to give you a chance to take a sneak preview so that you get an idea about the scope of this project. I suggest you take a look at the Sections about the "Vocoder Build Sequence", the "Cable Assembly", and the build instructions "18 Channel Filter Board Assembly". The latter should give you a pretty good idea how all the other board assembly instructions are going to look like.

Assembly Guide (sneak peek).
glubsch
Here are some of the features of the VoIS compared to other DIY and commercial vocoders. No guarantees that there aren't any errors so please let me know if you feel something needs to be corrected.

samplebias2
This looks and sounds fantastic! I'm going to look around town and see if I find someone qualified to build this for me, I took electronics in high school 20+ years ago, this is way out of my league. Since only a few EMS 2000's change hands world wide each year, this may be my only option.

I did build the PAIA 8 band vocoder kit with my teacher back then, but it never sounded close to what I wanted (SVC-350) finally got one of those.

Any way to ball-park estimate the total man hours in build time?
glubsch
Thanks for your comments.

Regarding the build time, I was hoping to gather that sort of information from the first builders so I can add this information to the assembly guide.

I can build the 18 channels on a weekend. But that's solid work of 8...10 hours per day. I've actually done it and felt a bit dizzy after having done nothing much else so I can't advise anyone on doing the same. nuts

You should also keep in mind that I know my design well. Soldering the 18 boards can be parallelized as most components are identical among the 18 boards (I've done it in chunks of six). I'd say a single board takes about 1.5...2.5 hours of soldering and preparing the peripherals (jacks and pots) for panel mounting. That also includes the calibration. When you calibrate the first board, maybe it takes a little bit of time, but you soon get a hang of it and I'd say a single channel filter board can be calibrated in 5...10 minutes.

The other boards take more time but I'd say it takes a solid 1 to 2 weeks total for a complete vocoder build.
glubsch


Today I've received front panels from fellow wiggler Julian. He and I are working together on providing you with the various panel options as indicated in the bundle request form.

For a larger picture of the panels, click here.

The black panel shows the option without recesses. The silver is with the recesses for sunk pots. What do you guys and gals think?
luchog
glubsch wrote:
The black panel shows the option without recesses. The silver is with the recesses for sunk pots. What do you guys and gals think?


My personal preference is for the black, non-recessed.
glubsch
I've just updated the assembly guide. It now contains photos of all the boards to be assembled.

Assembly Guide (sneak peek).
Dr Gris
I've always wanted a vocoder.
Unfortunately this is too advanced for me but I'm following this with interest.
I'm very impressed with your documentation thumbs up

//M
glubsch
Hi Dr Gris, thanks for your comment about the documentation. Once this project has taken off, I am going to work on a mono version with many features taken off but with the same level of vocoder audio quality (apart from the lowest and the highest channels removed). It would be great to have you on board.
Dr Gris
I'm very impressed with this whole project!
A simpler mono version in the future sounds very interesting thumbs up

//M
glubsch
Another assembly guide update (sneak peek).
latigid on
I was lucky enough to be in Munich and caught a live demo at Musikhaus Hieber Lindberg. I think we all found the sound to be really clean, even without compander circuitry. The filter boards look quite simple to assemble, the wiring will take some work.

I think I have enough on my plate at the moment, but I wish all builders success!
glubsch
latigid on wrote:
I was lucky enough to be in Munich and caught a live demo at Musikhaus Hieber Lindberg. I think we all found the sound to be really clean, even without compander circuitry. The filter boards look quite simple to assemble, the wiring will take some work.

I think I have enough on my plate at the moment, but I wish all builders success!


Thanks for your comments. This was a great day today at Hieber Lindberg. You guys were actually the first to get your hands on the vocoder and I am very happy about all the positive feedback.
glubsch
The interconnects among the boards are based on JST sockets and connectors (see the BOM and the assembly guide for more details). I don't plan to change the PCBs but if wigglers prefer to use their trusty MTA-100 system, here's what it would look like (the sockets are not soldered in this pic):

julian
Unless its essential, i always wire direct - its quicker, cheaper, and less prone to failure. That's just my opinion, and what i do with my own work though! : )

Obviously sometimes its not possible though.
samplebias2
Dr Gris wrote:
I'm very impressed with this whole project!
A simpler mono version in the future sounds very interesting thumbs up

//M


I agree, a simpler mono version without internal oscillators would be a simple streamlined version. Is there anyone here that doesn't have a synth ready to be used as an external carrier? Nobody i bet!
julian
Testing...

glubsch
The Vocoder Assembly Guide is virtually done! nanners

The only part that's missing is bolting the power supply onto the back panel and attaching the back panel to the vocoder enclosure.
glubsch
Fellow wigglers,

I am now ready to accept orders. If you are interested in this project, please first familiarize yourself with the documents shown in the first post of this thread (Assembly Guide, BOM, Bundle Request Form), then fill out the Bundle Request Form and send it to my email address. You can find my email address at vocoder.hoerold.com near the end of the web page.

Note: the bundle I am offering is not the whole kit. You will still have to order parts from your trusted distributor. There's a basket at Mouser that requires some updating. I am planning to separate out the DC/DC converter based power supply.

I will accept orders until the first 12 candidates have signed up. As is customary at muffwiggler's, I will post the candidates' aliases on the first post.

Once the list is full, I will accept payments. After all payments are made, I will order the parts and PCBs as requested per the Bundle Request Forms sent to me.
ultravox
Wow, I don't know how I missed this! I'm in for 1 kit!
glubsch
Sign up list:

1. synthcube
2. ultravox
ultravox
glubsch wrote:
Below is the updated front panel design based on dingebre's FPD template.

I still need some help though. The screw holes are placed for the panel to fit the Slim Line 3U Case. They have a center-to-center spacing of 105 mm. The handles that are supposed to fit are available here. Can someone tell me how they are supposed to be attached to the front panel? Are they supposed to sit over top of the holes meant for the panel to be screwed onto the enclosure? hmmm..... help

.


Hey glubsch, did you get this worked out? I'm hoping the rack ears are in the design.
glubsch
Hi ultravox, yes, this was worked out a while ago. Check out the second post on this page with the first prototypes from fellow member julian. Only 5 posts up from your last post, you can actually see an updated version with optimized lettering and separators in a different color. Which one is your preference?
ultravox
glubsch wrote:
Hi ultravox, yes, this was worked out a while ago. Check out the second post on this page with the first prototypes from fellow member julian. Only 5 posts up from your last post, you can actually see an updated version with optimized lettering and separators in a different color. Which one is your preference?


Geez, I must have been blind! I prefer the whiteface with no recess.
TimAsprin
I would like to order everything that's on offer please.
Thanks, if I'm not too late.
Just read the whole post, will go back to the brochure...
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