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Thunderbolt
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> General Gear  
Author Thunderbolt
MRMNW
Sorry if this has been asked before, but I can't find a definitive answer;

While I understand a thunderbolt interface will allow you to record more channels at higher sample rates, I want to know will it improve latency when, say, arranging on ableton with silent way outputting to modular with fx on the input tracks? I sync my analog gear with silent way sync and as more tracks and fx are introduced it introduces a lot of latency. Is this more computer processing power or the speed of my interface? Sorry if I haven't explained this very well!
JakeE
I think with Ableton you will always have latency when monitoring but it should be fine once you actually press record, with external effects im not sure about internal. I have a Motu 16a and use thunderbolt. I send synth signals into Ableton then have them on a send going back out to external effects pedals and there is noticeable latency which is annoying.

What does the cpu box in the top corner say? It may be your processing power can not handle all the dsp.

Have you read through these helpful pages on the Ableton site. Check out the how to reduce latency when monitoring page aswell.
MRMNW
Thanks, yeah I've been through all the latency reducing tips. It's not a huge problem I just wanted to know if thunderbolt helped in that situation or made zero difference. Silent way sync seems to need an increasing offset to stay in sync with any audio and wondered what was causing that - processing speed or the interface.
Panason
It will be better than a USB interface at least.
kindredlost
I’ve almost upgraded to a new iMac a few times just so I can upgrade some software but having to ditch my audio interface which is FireWire is another added expense. I guess at some point I’ll have to do it but it’s a really unpalatable expense. I’d rather put the money into gear.
calaveras
comparing firewire or USB interfaces to Thunderbolt interfaces, the latter will almost always have better latency.
The obvious reason would be that Thunderbolt is much faster than firewire and decently enough faster than USB.
But in addition to this, USB and especially firewire are usually an interface chip that sits on the PCI buss of the computer. Thunderbolt on the other hand essentially is the PCI buss of the computer.
This combined with thunderbolts ability to stream data in both directions at once gives it pretty low latency. Basically when you get down to less than 5ms you are talking about the same amount of delay as hearing the sound bounce of the walls in your room. And I'm not aware of any thunderbolt interface that does worst than 5ms. Maybe Behringer makes one? seriously, i just don't get it
Sinamsis
I think you'll get a lot of anecdotes here. Personally, I've been using TB interfaces for 4 or 5 years now and I love them. I initially used UAD, and now I have an Antelope Goliath. All of the above have very little latency. I think if you want the least amount of latency though, you'll want to monitor directly from your sound card. You will lost your effects this way, though both UAD and Antelope have DSP or FPGA based effects respectively.

That said, what you're describing doesn't sound like it's your interface. You're adding effects, straining your CPU and inducing latency this way. Every plugin you add will introduce some degree of latency. Have you tried adjusting your buffer size? How's the CPU load look when you're getting the significant latency? You might consider transitioning to something like a UAD satellite or audio interface for the DSP aspect.
Sinamsis
Oh and FWIW I routinely multitrack 8 to 16 or so tracks simultaneously without an issue, often with plugins on the tracks. Sometimes I have to adjust the delay settings ever so slightly, but usually not. If you're going to multitrack a significant number of tracks, I'd look at TB. There are affordable options out there. I keep mentioning UAD, but I think they're a great value, and the older model apollos go for a reasonable price these days.
locust_locust
I have a Focusrite Red 16 Line as my main studio interface.
This is the sort of latency I get at 32 samples.

[img]https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/files/latency_388.jpg[/img]

I mostly run it at 64 samples and IIRC the roundtrip is 3ms.
MRMNW
Thanks all. Definitely starting to think a TB interface with DSP would do the trick. Such a shame though, that the smaller UAD apollo's don't have ADAT IO, which I'll need.

I also have dual boot on my mac and need it to be compatible with latest OSX as well as 10.9.5 - the Focusrite Clarett TB will do the trick but no DSP. Not totally clear on whether the apogee element will be compatible either. Anyone have any experience of using a TB interface with mavericks? I understand that's the first os to support TB2.
rdavila
I moved from FW to TB and noticed a difference. Ableton also did a good job of implementing the latency adjustment setting for external instruments.

With TB I get less that .4 milliseconds latency consistently.

Also using the ERM multiclock.
rean1mator
curious as to what interface you are using and at what settings?
Mac or PC? And what is the specs?

I've seen no difference using the same settings between usb 3.0 and thunderbolt 2 using Motu 8a in Ableton for round trip latency.

48Khz 64mb buffer.

I'd imagine driver quality may have an impact and well Motu doesn't have the best driver support(imho).

I get 5ms round trip latency for both connections. Man .4 Milliseconds round trip latency is amazing. are you sure that's round trip?


rdavila wrote:
I moved from FW to TB and noticed a difference. Ableton also did a good job of implementing the latency adjustment setting for external instruments.

With TB I get less that .4 milliseconds latency consistently.

Also using the ERM multiclock.
monads
I was going to jump on TB, but am waiting it out next few years for the new PowerMac to hit the market and evaluate then. I'm more inclined to go with Dante over TB though hmmm.....
Exhale
DAW hosts show not correct round trip latency. Only theoretical.
There's an utility to measure real round trip latency.
http://www.centrance.com/downloads/ltu/
You need to connect ouputs of your interface to it's inputs.
Rex Coil 7
rdavila wrote:
With TB I get less that .4 milliseconds latency consistently ...


rean1mator wrote:
... Man .4 Milliseconds round trip latency is amazing. are you sure that's round trip?
meh I don't believe it. I think he's trying to sell me beach front property located on the Moon.

I've been getting bloodshot eyes from the hours/days of research I've been doing on all of this the last few days (new computer build goin' on ... link in my sig). I'm spec'ing out a custom computer to run Live 9 on Win 7 (Eighth generation Intel i3 quad core at 3.6ghz, SSD boot drive and an HDD with SATA connector, 16gb RAM, and the "go to" ASUS motherboard with Thunderbolt ES3 support card). I had never even heard of Thunderbolt until yesterday, since then I've been researching all of this.

There seems to be a number of Thunderbolt compliant interfaces, most of which are over $1k (some are substantially over $1K). I need one that won't be like lighting my money on fire, with maybe six audio outputs, and that will play nice with Silent Way. I've never used Silent Way (I have a hybrid Euro/5U modular) but I reckon if I'm diving in with this new computer rig, I may as well make it capable of many options.

No games. I've never played a computer game, not once, not ever. It's just not my thing.

So audio processing, recording, producing, live-jam-looping, and essentially using my computer as a synth and a tape deck is all I wish to do with it.

All of that having been said, all I've found that fits my criteria are the Universal Audio, MOTU, and possibly that Arturia interface. There are a few "economy minded" units, for all I know they may be trustworthy (Zoom, for one). I really don't want to bust the $1k line.

(Woo! ... brain is slowing down ... I need more coffee!) .... Coffee Addiction FTW w00t!!

Any ideas?

pbear :(
Panason
Exhale wrote:
DAW hosts show not correct round trip latency. Only theoretical.
There's an utility to measure real round trip latency.
http://www.centrance.com/downloads/ltu/
You need to connect ouputs of your interface to it's inputs.


So... Ableton 9 contains a "Lesson" about finding your interface's latency which involves routing a spare output back into an input, recording an audio sample from one track into another through this routing, and then measuring the delay by seeing how far off the grid the recording is....

They seem to have removed this from Ableton 10? I can't find it.
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