It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

Moderators: Kent, luketeaford, lisa, Joe.

It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?

Yes
79
54%
No
66
46%
 
Total votes: 145

User avatar
DJMaytag
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 835
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Madison, Wiscompton
Contact:

It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?

Post by DJMaytag » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:11 pm

Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches? It seems like most devices (mainly sequencers) are leaving out velocity as a standard option. You'd think that we've moved beyond 1983 by now, which is about the last time that non-velocity keyboard synths were fairly regular.

I love what some newer sequencers are doing, but I'm on a rant right now because there's pretty much only CV/gate outputs on the most interesting sequencers out right now (Eloquencer, Hermod, Toolbox). As much as I want to sequence right in my rack, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

Am I nuts? Change my mind! :D
Instagram | Soundcloud | Wisco Wigglers

If you talk about improper grounding 3 times, Graham Hinton appears!” -djs

User avatar
Yes Powder
Powder that makes you say "Yes"
Posts: 1604
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:23 am
Location: Albany, New York
Contact:

Post by Yes Powder » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:15 pm

Why does a sequencer need "velocity"? What would "velocity" even BE for a sequencer?
There are plenty of sequencers that have two or more controllable outputs, if that's what you mean. I'm looking at my A-155 right now.
Anyways, there are more efficient ways to simulate velocity by using euclidean sequencers, envelopes, and LFOs than it is to tweak a velocity value for each note, especially on long and/or polymetric sequences.

User avatar
Dcramer
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 5428
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:11 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Dcramer » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:23 pm

Funny story; I have a Qunexus which I bought as a keyboard and as an interface.
Problem is there’s always been a bug in it that makes the velocity CV output always output the same high voltage making it useless!
And if you contact KMI service, even though they’ve never fixed the bug, they pretend like there is no bug, because they’ve all forgotten about it! :bang:

User avatar
mdoudoroff
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3876
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:10 am
Location: New York City

Post by mdoudoroff » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:03 pm

There’s nothing preventing you from using a spare CV channel on one of those snazzy sequencers to handle “velocity” (or other) modulation.

User avatar
dubonaire
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 7024
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:45 pm

Re: It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND veloc

Post by dubonaire » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:08 pm

DJMaytag wrote:Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches? It seems like most devices (mainly sequencers) are leaving out velocity as a standard option. You'd think that we've moved beyond 1983 by now, which is about the last time that non-velocity keyboard synths were fairly regular.

I love what some newer sequencers are doing, but I'm on a rant right now because there's pretty much only CV/gate outputs on the most interesting sequencers out right now (Eloquencer, Hermod, Toolbox). As much as I want to sequence right in my rack, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

Am I nuts? Change my mind! :D
All of those sequencers you mentioned are capable of velocity CV. The simple way to do it is have two VCAs in series, one controlled by an envelope an one controlled by velocity CV.

User avatar
starthief
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4605
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:39 am
Location: St Louis, MO
Contact:

Post by starthief » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:26 pm

Dcramer wrote:Funny story; I have a Qunexus which I bought as a keyboard and as an interface.
Problem is there’s always been a bug in it that makes the velocity CV output always output the same high voltage making it useless!
And if you contact KMI service, even though they’ve never fixed the bug, they pretend like there is no bug, because they’ve all forgotten about it! :bang:
I had similar trouble with a KMI K-Board, before it died completely. I never really liked the feel of it or felt like the pitch bending stuff was controllable at all, either.


Anyway, I have my CV.OCD configured for 3 voices rather than 4, with the first one having both CV and velocity... and I find I rarely patch the velocity.

But when I sequence with Mimetic Digitalis or a matrix mixer/gates combination, I often dedicate one or more CV channels to something other than pitch.

User avatar
luketeaford
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1846
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:54 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Contact:

Re: It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND veloc

Post by luketeaford » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:31 pm

dubonaire wrote:The simple way to do it is have two VCAs in series, one controlled by an envelope an one controlled by velocity CV.
100% agree with this statement. There are a lot of ways to patch velocity in modular and I prefer to figure it out myself for each patch.

User avatar
astrodislocate
Common Wiggler
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:02 pm

Post by astrodislocate » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:44 am

you know what i think is that instead of having like, a sequencer with a number of channels that each have their own cv and gate output, they should just have one single channel with that same number of cv and gate outputs that would normally be wasted on the other channels, and you should be able to program the those extra outputs for each step of the sequence seperately from the two outputs you'd normally use for that one channel

User avatar
Jumbuktu
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1296
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:03 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post by Jumbuktu » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:52 am

I don't really want a sequencer with two or more rows of CV control. With everything locked to the same sequence, it's difficult to get variation. I find it much better to use mutiple sequencers, of different lengths, to control things like filter CV, EG release, glide etc. If they were all in the same sequence, it would just repeat the same way every time.

User avatar
hyena
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 867
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:00 pm
Location: milan, italy
Contact:

Post by hyena » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:25 am

velocity is only a conventional term inside the MIDI language.
in modular world you can achieve ways of processing dynamics and loudness that go far beyond the "velocity" parameter mapped to this or that. so i see absolutely no need for implementing velocity other than inside midi to cv modules

User avatar
subdo
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:03 am
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Post by subdo » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:50 am

Both of my sequencing options (BSP, MPC>Yarns) have options for velocity. PP/Brains has 3 CV outs and could easily handle velocity. I guess what I'm saying is the options exist. Not everyone cares about a 3rd CV so not every sequencer will have it but there are certainly options if that's what you want.

User avatar
lisa
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 5103
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:00 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lisa » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:04 am

I wouldn’t want that type of sequencer in my rack. Velocity is relevant in my DAW and Elektron boxes. In my rack I control the volume of a sound in 100 different ways.
Last edited by lisa on Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
My attempt at dodecaphony, following all of the twelve-tone serialism rules but still fashioning it the Lisa style that you all know and love. ;)


User avatar
lisa
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 5103
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:00 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lisa » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:06 am

Image

User avatar
brandonlogic
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2786
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:17 am
Location: Milwaukee WI

Post by brandonlogic » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:10 am

Flxs1 or Nerdseq
They both have modulation channels in addition to cv/gate that can work great for velocity.

User avatar
falseeye
Common Wiggler
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:38 pm
Location: vancouver

Post by falseeye » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:39 am

I see alot of people kinda critical of this question of wether to have velocity in a eurorack sequencer . of course in theory you can make anything happen in eurorack including a little velocity like effects to your sequence but im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not? I know on the DFAM it has it built into the sequencer and i love it , it imo actually makes the module much more usefull than if it didnt , and in retrospect if i hadnt had the dfam to try velocity with my eurorack i probably wouldnt know what i was missing

R.U.Nuts
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1831
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:43 pm

Post by R.U.Nuts » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:56 am

I don't get it: Is this a question about why not all euro sequencers have at least two channels of CV so you can modulate frequency and amplitude of a signal seperately?

User avatar
starthief
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4605
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:39 am
Location: St Louis, MO
Contact:

Post by starthief » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:02 am

falseeye wrote:im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not?
Snobbery has nothing to do with it.

Velocity is a specific feature in MIDI. A MIDI sequence contains note on messages with a velocity and a note number in them.

"Velocity" has no real meaning in Eurorack. Eurorack sequencers just send voltages; they don't care what you do with them. Maybe it's pitch, but maybe it's clock speed, amplitude, probability of letting a gate pass, modulation amount, timbre, a switch that other sequencers are patched to...

Eurorack doesn't even tie pitch to note events. If something happens to sequence CV and gate, you can use it that way, or you can ignore the gates and use some other gate source, or patch the gate as a reset back into the sequencer.

Plenty (but not all) MIDI converters will happily convert velocity to a CV for you.
Last edited by starthief on Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DonaldCrunk
pregnant with sound
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: seattle

Re: It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND veloc

Post by DonaldCrunk » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:03 am

dubonaire wrote:
All of those sequencers you mentioned are capable of velocity CV. The simple way to do it is have two VCAs in series, one controlled by an envelope an one controlled by velocity CV.
This is the complete answer to this problem.


I'm not sure how a standalone step sequencer would even implement "velocity" with any completeness - you could sharpie over one of the CV outputs with the word 'velocity' if that makes you feel better, but you still have to modulate the amplitude of the voice somehow (make it louder and softer) - thus requiring you to patch to a VCA somewhere in your voice's signal chain.

The most sensible implementation to me is in the eurorack drum module world, where a drum module may have a 'velocity' input that addresses an internal VCA and allows any generic 0-8v CV to regulate the amplitude. Of course 'complete' voice modules like DFAM will have this function, because the Sequencer and VCA are part of the same module - but this function must be *patched* in traditional modular synthesis.


These are my favorite learning moments - discovering something you wish your modular did, and then learning to patch it yourself with stuff you already have!

User avatar
nostalghia
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 962
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:46 pm
Location: central usofa

Post by nostalghia » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:04 am

At the risk of arguing semantics, seems to me (and some others who have posted) that the term "velocity" should be reserved for a CV or Midi output of a keyboard (or at least some form of controller) that has keys, pads, etc. that can be struck faster/harder or slower/lighter. In the context of a sequencer, you're really just referring to a dedicated extra CV track used to modulate something other than pitch-audio amplitude in this case, right? Unless I'm misunderstanding something. So yeah, use another VCA channel in the patch.

By the way, if you already have a sequencer you like that has a single CV out and you're using it for pitch (melodic notes), and you wish it had another track for modulation, consider just adding another small sequencer running off the same clock. Something like the XAOC Tirana. 6hp, uni or bipolar CV, can transpose and change play direction via CV input to add variety or randomness. Multiple units can be chained if you want more than 4 steps. Mod Grid link: XAOC Tirana
Last edited by nostalghia on Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
“If you look for a meaning, you'll miss everything that happens.” - Andrei Tarkovsky
https://soundcloud.com/nostalghia70s

User avatar
DJMaytag
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 835
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Madison, Wiscompton
Contact:

Post by DJMaytag » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:05 am

falseeye wrote:I see alot of people kinda critical of this question of wether to have velocity in a eurorack sequencer . of course in theory you can make anything happen in eurorack including a little velocity like effects to your sequence but im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not? I know on the DFAM it has it built into the sequencer and i love it , it imo actually makes the module much more usefull than if it didnt , and in retrospect if i hadnt had the dfam to try velocity with my eurorack i probably wouldnt know what i was missing
I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018. I get that extra hardware outputs = added cost (not sure if added the feature in firmware costs much more), so at least figure out a way to put a header or two on the main sequencer module so extra outputs can be added later.

Eloquencer's screen seems like a PERFECT setup for selecting one of its tracks, and then hitting alternate view to show 16 columns of velocity/mod for each track. They've mentioned that such an extra output for velocity/mod would be possible, but nothing as far as how that would work in their software.
Instagram | Soundcloud | Wisco Wigglers

If you talk about improper grounding 3 times, Graham Hinton appears!” -djs

User avatar
DonaldCrunk
pregnant with sound
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: seattle

Post by DonaldCrunk » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:07 am

DJMaytag wrote: I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018.
These are the types of signals in the modular world - CV (continuous voltage 0-10v), Gate (event trigger that stays high for the duration of the step/press), trigger (same as gate but with fixed pulse duration), and Audio. There is no 'velocity' signal type.

User avatar
starthief
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4605
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:39 am
Location: St Louis, MO
Contact:

Post by starthief » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:08 am

DJMaytag wrote:I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018.
Because CV is all Eurorack has. Gates are CVs (if specialized, limited ones with two values... but you can attenuate a gate or slew it or highpass filter it or all kinds of other things). Audio is CVs. Everything is CVs. None of it has any meaning except that which is given to it by patching (and how you conceptualilze it).

User avatar
lisa
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 5103
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:00 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lisa » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:13 am

DJMaytag But that extra track would just be another sequencer track that could be used for anything. So, you could use Eloquencer as a four track melodic sequencer with velocity control. Problem solved. :despair:
My attempt at dodecaphony, following all of the twelve-tone serialism rules but still fashioning it the Lisa style that you all know and love. ;)


User avatar
Yes Powder
Powder that makes you say "Yes"
Posts: 1604
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:23 am
Location: Albany, New York
Contact:

Post by Yes Powder » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:18 am

falseeye wrote:hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not?
If I just took a multichannel sequencer and wrote "VELOCITY" in black sharpie on the 2nd channel output, would that suffice?
:miley:

Vanden92
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:19 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by Vanden92 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:18 am

DJMaytag wrote:
falseeye wrote:I see alot of people kinda critical of this question of wether to have velocity in a eurorack sequencer . of course in theory you can make anything happen in eurorack including a little velocity like effects to your sequence but im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not? I know on the DFAM it has it built into the sequencer and i love it , it imo actually makes the module much more usefull than if it didnt , and in retrospect if i hadnt had the dfam to try velocity with my eurorack i probably wouldnt know what i was missing
I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018. I get that extra hardware outputs = added cost (not sure if added the feature in firmware costs much more), so at least figure out a way to put a header or two on the main sequencer module so extra outputs can be added later.

Eloquencer's screen seems like a PERFECT setup for selecting one of its tracks, and then hitting alternate view to show 16 columns of velocity/mod for each track. They've mentioned that such an extra output for velocity/mod would be possible, but nothing as far as how that would work in their software.
But you would still require an additional VCA for this velocity to have any effect on the amplitude.

Post Reply

Return to “Eurorack Modules”