It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?

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It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?

Yes
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54%
No
66
46%
 
Total votes: 145

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hyena
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Post by hyena » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:57 am

Vanden92 wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:...
I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018. I get that extra hardware outputs = added cost (not sure if added the feature in firmware costs much more), so at least figure out a way to put a header or two on the main sequencer module so extra outputs can be added later.

...
But you would still require an additional VCA for this velocity to have any effect on the amplitude.
this! as a lot of us already stated, velocity is a MIDI convention, not a "musical" convention and absolutely not a measure of anything in sound theory (and practice). in the acoustic world we have variable amplitude of signals. in the modular world we have variable voltages. in the MIDI world you mimic the strength with which you strike a key on a piano with an arbitrary parameter called "velocity" (128 values).
saying that not having velocity on modular sequencers is a shame is like turning the flexible multifaceted environment of modular synths into a bidimensional world.
and it's also not so simple. you either have 2xVCA's everytime you want to control the amplitude of a signal OR you have to revolutionize the whole system by turning GATE\TRIGGER signals into variable amplitude signals and then ditch all your function\envelope generators if they don't react to GATE signals amplitude...
when all you have to do is think in the modular terms (which are a representation of the acoustic reality, in a way) and don't insist in thinking DAW or oldschool midi studio way. you need that kind of info? well, use a different sequencer track for that and add a VCA. i sometimes use velocity from a midi-cv module, the vca matrix is a very good solution for quick control of a vca thru another vca, for example.

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Post by Multi Grooves » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:53 am

chrisso wrote:
Hirsbro wrote:I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression :roll:
Velocity adds life to any part, especially percussive parts.
Your definition of keyboard feature is only half of the story. Velocity is actually a feature of real instruments as it's impossible for a human to play every note at exactly the same velocity, therefore giving the performed passage some life.
It's not a 'must have' for me, but I do think a velocity input on some modules, especially percussive ones, would be a plus.

SSF Entity, Hexinverter Mutant Machine off the top of my head. EDIT scratch that I think the SSF has ducking (I'm not in front of it).
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pzoot
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Post by pzoot » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:40 am

This thread should be a sticky. Could be really helpful for newcomers so they can get a sense about how quickly the forum can shift from being about people with knowledge trying to successfully communicate their thoughts to others, to just being about ego-driven pontificating (as evidenced by people at this point knowingly using a word that has 17 definitions without even trying to identify which one they’re talking about). The velocity (pun intended) at which this particular thread grew speaks volumes about the insatiable demand for an outlet for that behavior

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Post by hawkfuzz » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:12 am

You talking about "velocity"? I thought OP made it clear which velocity they were speaking of and everyone else is responding to that definition, or am I missing something?

Good pun btw.

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Post by helix » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:56 am

I totally agree. Why could a sequencer not have a per step "velocity amount" that is sent out as a separate CV from 0-5V? Or even invert-able. This could be used to send to a filter cutoff's secondary CV input to get things moving and not have to use a second sequencer or some such for the same effect

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Post by lisa » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:02 am

pzoot What are you on (about)?

There is a bit of bad tone, probably due to the what year it is-argument and the imposement of MIDI/ITB limited thinking on modular gear. However, this thread is also full of efforts to explain and further the subject.
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Post by euromorcego » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:08 am

helix wrote:I totally agree. Why could a sequencer not have a per step "velocity amount" that is sent out as a separate CV from 0-5V? Or even invert-able.
aaaaaaaaaahhhhh .... at the risk of being redundant: quite a few sequencer already do this, obviously only those with several tracks/multiple cv outs. For example in Hermod you can assign "velocity" to any cv output (and you can anyway use any cv output to modulate anything you like).

The OP specifically complained that such cv outputs must not be assignable. Currently people have a choice: use a cv out it as another pitch cv (= another track), or have a single track using two cv outs. The OP requests that we all must use the latter and we should not have a choice.

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Post by pzoot » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:48 am

hawkfuzz wrote:You talking about "velocity"? I thought OP made it clear which velocity they were speaking of and everyone else is responding to that definition, or am I missing something?
I'm not just picking on the OP. But, his attempt to clarify mid-way through didn't really slow anything down.

Here are various uses of the word “velocity” that I saw. This is in the context of a patch whose pitch and gate control signals are generated by a single sequencer module (Note: None of these are necessarily invalid if there is a common understanding in the conversation. If nothing else, this shows how ineffective of a word “velocity” is for general conversations like this):

1. The Technician: It refers to the primary SOURCE of the signal used to control the overall amplitude of the audio signal … i.e., the ability of the sequencer to record MIDI Velocity (1-127) messages and to convert them into CV signals (volts) that are sent by the sequencer on steps that send gate signals. A sequencer output labelled “Velocity” would refer to the source of the CV output signal, not (necessarily) the destination (so, not true that "an output labeled ”velocity” would be nonsensical since it would output CV that could be used for anything in a modular enviroment"). Usage of "velocity" should be limited to this because “velocity” is not a real world (or modular synthesizer) concept … drums and piano keys are hit with “force” … “velocity” is irrelevant if the drum head or string is not ultimate “struck”. And "volume" is not "velocity"

2. The Pragmatist: It refers to ANY control signal that is sent by the sequencer on steps with active gates, regardless of the signal’s original source … e.g., recorded MIDI Velocity, knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. A sequencer output labelled “Velocity” could be used to communicate that the output will be 0V when there is no live gate on a step (again, such a label would not be "nonsensical" ... if its intended meaning is understood)

3. The Fully Abstracted: It refers to the use of ANY control signal used to affect the ultimate amplitude of the audio signal, even if sent from a different module than the sequencer … e.g., you could use a Voltage Block or a Batumi LFO as a “velocity control” for a patch whose pitch and gate is sequenced by a Metropolis if you patch the CV output to the CV input of a VCA that is set up to control the amplitude of the sound source directly or the amplitude of an envelope patched to another VCA to control the amplitude of the sound source. This use may be combined with rude insults about "the imposement of MIDI/ITB limited thinking on modular gear". It is a flat out dismissal of any views of those using definition 1, 2 or 3

4. The Result-Oriented: It refers to an INPUT on a sound generating module that controls the volume of the module’s audio output via an internal VCA … the source of the CV signal is irrelevant. An input labelled “Velocity” may be used to indicate the types of available destinations by analogy to what commonly happens in MIDI land (e.g., Plonk). This can be an easier, and more cost/HP effective way to patch certain types of sounds (and the inputs are almost always normalled to full volume if you want to use something else)

Since Lisa asked what I'm getting on about, I used some quotes from her.

My point is that it is amazingly obvious that there are different meanings for the word "velocity" - in fact it has been pointed out by many posters in the thread. And (in my view) there are valid opinions to be made in all four descriptions. But, the thread has a sometimes-obnoxious, sometimes-comical, but always-endless stream of people posting responses that assume a different definition than the person they responded. So, to me, that indicates perhaps a goal not of bilateral communication and sharing, but of merely pontificating on a stage

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Post by Shledge » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:14 am

Oh, look who's pontificating. The irony.

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Post by pzoot » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:26 am

Shledge wrote:Oh, look who's pontificating. The irony.
Definition of pontificate: "express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic"

So, completely up to your opinion whether that's what I'm doing.

But I think I'm doing two things (1) attempting to help well-intentioned people more effectively communicate by helping them to stop talking past each other and actually directly address each other's points and (2) creating a new topic for discussion ... whether some people even care about communicating in a community and instead have a primary motivation of just being heard, loudly.

I (personally) feel quite comfortable that I am not pontificating but am actually trying to help (1) this specific conversation move along and (2) reduce that selfish presence on this forum a bit by openly calling it out.

I am also fully open to debate and being proven wrong. I love being proven wrong!! That's why people like being surprised at movie endings ... they can be proved wrong without being embarrassed. To me, being wrong is learning. So, I embrace the surprise!!!

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Post by recordplay » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:12 pm

Kodama wrote:The velocity on some devices (Beat Step Pro) are wayyyyy too sensitive and can't be properly adjusted. Of course we also will want a mod wheel CV out and pressure, and why not poly pressure while we're at it! :-P
You can change velocity scaling in midi control centre from 1-10 - I presume that means 0-10v - it's behaving a little wierd though when I apply this to a VCA - it seems to open the VCA and then close it if I'm subtle tapping the pads.

Excuse the dum question but is control voltage 0-10v range
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Post by Homepage Englisch » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:11 pm

For me this question makes sense only if you're using some external desktop/keyboard sequencer where you can program each of the steps by pressing keys preferably. But even if there's only MIDI output on such a unit, my Doepfer Low Cost MIDI-to-CV offers CV outs for pitch, pitch wheel, gate, velocity and one more control (modwheel or some CC, it's programmable). Everything else is a matter of patching/programming the thing, both on modular and hardwired units.

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Post by nemox » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:56 pm

I just got a nord drum 2 and an eloquencer.
Looks like it is not the ultimate combo to deal with velocity ... :bang:

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Post by Keltie » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:13 pm

BSPs CV sequencers have three outs. I’m kinda with OP on this one. Dedicating a second track for a secondary CV out feels a bit clunky, and ends up being a bit divey on seqs like Elo et al. Not a big deal, surely, to have gate and two cvs per track, right?

But then, some seqs provide this already....

Whether this is patched to a VCA and therefore becomes a velocity control a la midi, or not, is up to the user, but it would presumably be useful in many patches... vcf, oscs mods such as shape/ table, lfo rate for wubby stuff, etc etc

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Post by DJMaytag » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:21 pm

Should I update this for 2019, as maybe now is finally the time? :banana:
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Post by DJMaytag » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:32 pm

No one looks at the Erica Drum Sequencer, and says “oh, that’s got 28 channels of trigger outputs.” It’s 16 channels, with 12 accent outputs that modify the first 12 of the channels. But it’s all just triggers, right? Why do some of them need to be labeled as accents, is the argument that some of you seem to be putting forth.

I guess the most literal, dumbed down thing I want to see is a device that can generate more than 2 signals per event. For my usage, I would use one signal for a gate for an envelope, one signal to set the pitch of an oscillator, and a third signal to modify something else in my patch, whatever the hell that might be. I guess the important thing is that I want all the signals associated with the same event, not two events that happen to be occurring at the same time, as has been suggested to do with using two tracks of a sequencer, even though such a track might not be suitable for generating a voltage in the way I’d want (ie trying to use a note sequencer to generate a signal, but you’d want a negative voltage that some note sequencers likely don’t generate).
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Post by euromorcego » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:53 pm

aaah, back again to this lovely thread ...
DJMaytag wrote:No one looks at the Erica Drum Sequencer, and says “oh, that’s got 28 channels of trigger outputs.” It’s 16 channels, with 12 accent outputs that modify the first 12 of the channels. But it’s all just triggers, right? Why do some of them need to be labeled as accents, is the argument that some of you seem to be putting forth.
yes, why indeed? Why can't users decide if they rather want 24 channels with no accent output?

But you sort of answer your own question: it is only trigger outs. If you want to use the accents to trigger another percussion sound (or envelope or whatever) you are free to do so. You, on the other hand, request that the velocity output is hardwired to the velocity data, so people cannot use it to e.g., output another note cv signal.

And, something which you also (again) conveniently neglect: trigger outputs are not the issue, these are cheap. Good D/A conversion is a lot more effort, so it makes a lot more sense to be more flexible with the cv outputs.
DJMaytag wrote: I guess the most literal, dumbed down thing I want to see is a device that can generate more than 2 signals per event. For my usage, I would use one signal for a gate for an envelope, one signal to set the pitch of an oscillator, and a third signal to modify something else in my patch, whatever the hell that might be. I guess the important thing is that I want all the signals associated with the same event, [not]... using two tracks of a sequencer, ....
As has been pointed out (again and again) that this is exactly how most outputs work, e.g. YARNS or HERMOD, allow you to output the velocity just as you like it. But you request that other users may not use these outputs as additional note cv outputs, and hence have the option to have more channels at the same time.

ps. and, by the way, there are a few sequencer/midi modules with dedicated velocity outputs (BSP was mentioned). Why not go for one of these instead of ranting ...?

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Post by DJMaytag » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:14 pm

Erica Synths Drum Sequencer is a 16-track Trigger sequencer. You CAN use it to trigger more things, but you’re being undersold what it’s capable of. I’d rather be undersold than be oversold, necessitating having to buy two of something like an Eloquencer to truly get 8 tracks of CV/gate/MOD control.

I’ve been pretty clear that velocity is probably the #1 thing a keyboard player would want for expression, I don’t think any sort of additional output needs to be hardwired to such a signal. In the case of my Arturia Keystep, I’m quite happy that it has an assignable MOD output that just so happens to be what I’ve set to velocity.

Also, I didn’t even say it needs to be hardwired to the device. An expansion header could be used to add extra outputs to each track, such that if you don’t want such a thing, you can just use the standard module.

I put in a good word with Winter Modular, to allow the expansion header on the back of the Eloquencer to expand the outputs for velocity or whatever signal you want to generate. They decided to expand with MIDI. No big deal, but what I’m hoping for in the discussion is that the next person/dev that builds a dope Eurorack Sequencer, that they heed some of these ideas and allow for such extra outputs or similar functionality.
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Post by justin3am » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:10 pm

In the past, I felt that if I wanted to do a lot of CV sequencing, using my Octatrack with a MIDI>CV converter or sending CV from Bitwig via my ES-3, were my two best options. I later got a Seq-1 from Audio Damage and I was totally stoked to have three modulation outputs, as well as gate and accent outputs that could be used independently. It's a fantastic sequencer for a single voice.

Once I started sequencing multiple voices within my modular, I started using a bunch of separate sequencers and got my Octatrack back in the mix.

Now that I've gotten a Vector sequencer from Five12 and combined it with a Hermod, I think I'll be doing most of my sequencing (MIDI and CV) from my euro system. The Vector on it's own has two sets of analog outputs; CV, Gate, "Velocity" (velocity of course can modulate anything). With the expander you get an additional 4 sets of analog outs. On top of that, each Part can transmit an additional 3 MIDI CCs which I can send to the Hermod to be converted to CV.

The Vector expander also has 8 assignable trigger input/output combo jacks. As inputs, they can be used to externally clock each part individually (though only 6 of these jacks can be used as inputs at once) or as outputs they can be used for clock divisions and extra gate outputs.

I've had my Vector for a few weeks and I can tell it's going to have a huge impact on the way I approach sequencing, not only in euro land but with my MIDI gear as well. Previously I though it would be silly to bring MIDI sequencing/processing into my modular, but now that I have tried it, I can tell it's going to make my whole setup more cohesive.
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Post by DJMaytag » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:01 pm

Bumping this for 2019. I’m throwing in the towel on any one device being perfect for my needs, and reserving CV/gate/velocity to sequences coming from my DAW (via Expert Sleepers gear).

Currently looking into various combos of smaller sequencers (or pseudo/semi sequencers) instead of one single multitrack box like an Eloquencer or a Hermod. Building a Frequency Central Cryptograf soon and researching some other interesting options for trigger/gate/CV generation.
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Post by DJMaytag » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:38 pm

WMD Metron + a bunch of Volteras. The thread can be locked now. 16 gate tracks w/ up to 64 programmable CV’s total. :eek:
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Post by The Grump » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:59 pm

RIT_M has per step velocity, CV and gate.

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Post by Orgia Mode » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:47 pm

I don't think I want it in a sequencer, but on a keyboard yes.

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Post by nicholasyu » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:49 pm

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