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It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next [all]

It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
Yes
52%
 52%  [ 71 ]
No
47%
 47%  [ 64 ]
Total Votes : 135

Author It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
BaloErets
DJMaytag wrote:
I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018.


I think the point is that velocity is just a stepped voltage which exists all over the place in a system. The only time that you are going to see that option is for sequencers that have some sort of MIDI conversion built into them (Hermod for example). I find the idea is like saying "In 2018, how come there are no filter frequency outputs in sequencers".

Everything is voltage. A voltage goes from it's current value to a higher value, from it's current value to a lower value, or stays at it's current value. That and how it transitions (exponentially, linearly, stepped, logarithmic, 1v/Oct) is pretty much all that every single module is existence does at it's output.
DonaldCrunk
the more concerning thing to me about this poll - either 18 out of 41 people have a misunderstanding about the fundamentals of modular patching, or they've discovered something awesome about Eurorack that I don't know and would love to learn!
bedhed3000
The issue here just a matter of nomenclature. The OP wants "velocity", but what he actually needs is an extra CV output per channel. This list proves that there are lots of sequqncers that have this: http://doudoroff.com/sequencers/

Or you can just have more than one sequencer - one for your main CV/gate patterns and the other for sequencing amplitude changes. I dedicate a few channels of Voltage Block for this usually, but any tiny CV sequencer will work - like the Transient Modules 8S.

Another general issue is that people seem to want gigantic modules that perform way too many (IMHO) functions, essentially acting like a part of a DAW.
organon
This seems like a semantical question. Velocity is a concept that comes from the world of keyboard playing and as such it has no meaning in the modular world, which is sequencer and modulation based. You can use CVs for whatever you like, if you use them for amplitude control you are free to call them “velocity CV” if it makes you happy. Me for my part, I don’t need this classification and I don’t need manufacturers to tell me what to use a CV output for.

If you are simply trying to say sequencers should have more CV outputs, I’m totally with you. More is always better. That opinion is pretty commonplace and hardly worth starting a debate over. But more CV outs also means more money and more complex interface.
Yes Powder
BaloErets wrote:
I think the point is that velocity is just a stepped voltage which exists all over the place in a system. The only time that you are going to see that option is for sequencers that have some sort of MIDI conversion built into them (Hermod for example). I find the idea is like saying "In 2018, how come there are no filter frequency outputs in sequencers".

Everything is voltage. A voltage goes from it's current value to a higher value, from it's current value to a lower value, or stays at it's current value. That and how it transitions (exponentially, linearly, stepped, logarithmic, 1v/Oct) is pretty much all that every single module is existence does at it's output.


Nailed it. MY ASS IS BLEEDING
DJMaytag
Vanden92 wrote:
But you would still require an additional VCA for this velocity to have any effect on the amplitude.

You could use velocity for anything, but usually yes, you’d need a second VCA for volume modulation. I have a pair of Manhattan Analog VCA’s I’ve built for my main synth voice, dedicated for volume & velocity. Sometimes I route the velocity voltage through a matrix mixer to filter cutoff, sometimes instead of and sometimes in addition to volume.

Fine, let’s call it “mod” then instead of velocity... whatever you want to call it though... it’s just surprising to me that modern sequencers don’t have at least a third output per track for whatever bi-polar or unipolar modulation you’d like to have in your performance.
pzoot
Sequencers don’t really “send” velocity, they record it, and then convert the speed at which you press a button into a CV signal (or it’s difital equivalent). Then the sequencer sends the CV signal to control volume. I agree that not many Euro modules record velocity and convert it into CV. But given the OP mentioned the number of outputs, I’m guessing they were really referring to using one module to send multiple CV sequences to control not just pitch but also volume?

I guess I tend to agree that has value since I use a Polyend Poly. But there are many, many modules out there (from Hermod using multiple tracks, to voltage block, to Rene) that can provide a sequenced “volume cv” signal from the same module that sends the pitch cv and gate. But they don’t generally record that cv sequence based on button press speed
jakobprogsch
So this is essentially just asking for a different distribution of gate and CV outputs. 2:1 instead of 1:1. As someone who occasionally thinks about building my own sequencer I see how you would always arrive at 1:1 though.

The main "cost" of adding a second CV channel to a sequence is all the pots and routing you need. But when you already have that then making that extra channel independent is relatively cheap again (a couple pins from your microcontroller to a multiplexer instead of sharing them). Adding a gate output for that second channel is even cheaper (literally one pin out of your microcontroller and one jack + a buffer). Essentially, if you are already adding more CV channels the cost of also adding the gate channels for them is trivial. To end up with more CV channels than gate channels you'd have to intentionally omit the gate channels...

Something similar even applies to fully digital sequencers. You are probably running out of DACs (CV) before you run out of logic pins (gate). So there is almost never a reason to NOT have at least one gate channel per CV channel.
Kodama
The velocity on some devices (Beat Step Pro) are wayyyyy too sensitive and can't be properly adjusted. Of course we also will want a mod wheel CV out and pressure, and why not poly pressure while we're at it! razz
0BSRVR
Pittsburgh midi3 has had it for some time now.
hawkfuzz
Everything is voltage.

A lot of people have problems going from a DAW environment, with everything present and available to a "less efficient" system of creating music.

There are sequencers that have "mod" out. It's not really necessary for all of them to have it, because not everyone thinks you need everything on every module. When there's a lot of extra features, something else is compromised like price or size or even build. The Intellijel has only 8 steps and is one of the most used sequencers.

You have to bend to the limitations instead of forcing it to be a DAW.
brandonlogic
DJMaytag wrote:


Fine, let’s call it “mod” then instead of velocity... whatever you want to call it though... it’s just surprising to me that modern sequencers don’t have at least a third output per track


have you looked at the FLXS1 and NERDSEQ?
justin3am
There are quite a few euro sequencers which have auxiliary CV outputs which can be used for 'Velocity' or what ever you would like. Also, most MIDI>CV converters have a Velocity output.

I really like Audio Damage's Seq1. It has three CV outputs which are assignable and can be used for velocity, step modulation or LFOs.

Five12's upcoming Vector sequencer will have velocity outputs which also sound like they are assignable.

The sequencers mentioned in the OP seem to be the type which are geared toward having multiple tracks and as many 1v/Oct and Gate pairs as possible. I think those products fit a niche.

I personally like to have as many CV outputs per track as possible. For that reason, I use a Seq1, Brains/Pressure Points combo x2, Voltage Block, a Beatstep Pro, a Mutant Brain MIDI>CV converter and I pre-ordered a Vector.
nostalghia
DJMaytag wrote:
it’s just surprising to me that modern sequencers don’t have at least a third output per track for whatever bi-polar or unipolar modulation you’d like to have in your performance.


A. Did you look at the list linked in the post from bedhed3000? "This list proves that there are lots of sequqncers that have this: http://doudoroff.com/sequencers/ "
Many sequencers listed have a "Mod" or "Aux" CV track/output in addition to one or more main CV outs.

B. Any sequencer with >1 CV output will work, as others have also been trying to tell you-and there are multiple examples to choose from. A variable voltage per step linked to a common clock will work just as well for controlling amplitude, VCF cutoff, etc. as it will for note pitch-just may need to do some experimenting to find what "note" to program into a spare "pitch" track to get the change in volume you want on that step.

C. Have you looked at the Arturia Keystep? Small MIDI/CV controller keyboard ($100 or so), not a module (so it wouldn't take up space in your case), but has a nifty 64 step sequencer and 3 outputs that work well with modulars-CV (pitch), Gate and Modulation-which can be assigned to keyboard velocity via software app. Hit a key harder when recording a sequence in realtime into one of the memory slots, and you get a correspondingly higher voltage out of the Mod out on that step. Patch that to your second VCA CV in and you've got sequence with velocity expression. I have the AD Seq1, Metropolis, Tirana and PP/Brains, but sometimes still pull out the Keystep instead because it's so immediate and fun to use for simple bass lines or melodies.

Edit-others have made these same points already in the time it took me to write and post this while also answering emails at work. Hope it's not coming off as a "pile on"-sorry, not my intent. I understand that everyone here may be coming from different perspectives, or types of past experience and habits with the particular kind of gear they are used to using.
Rigo
pzoot wrote:
Sequencers don’t really “send” velocity, they record it

Can I disagree ? None of my Eurorack sequencers can record anything ...
bedhed3000
Rigo wrote:
pzoot wrote:
Sequencers don’t really “send” velocity, they record it

Can I disagree ? None of my Eurorack sequencers can record anything ...


You missed this part:
pzoot wrote:
I agree that not many Euro modules record velocity and convert it into CV


Someone else mentioned Keystep Pro. Not eurorack, but it sounds like that is what is going on. I think his point is that there needs to be some sort of physical input being recorded by the sequencer, then translated to a CV or MIDI value for it to be really considered velocity. A piano roll in a DAW would have a separate sequencer lane to store that physical input (i.e. touch sensitive keyboard), or allow the user to program it using a mouse.

In my opinion, if you want this functionality, use a DAW or a keystep and save some money and headache. But then again, this entire thread is the result of a semantic confusion/disagreement so whatevers.
timoka
i always thought and still think that it would be really useful if a dynamic message would be transported through gate or trigger voltage, meaning making these binary messages a bit more "informative" and of course having more "intelligent" modules on the receiving end, so for example an envelope generator with variable voltage out depending on the gate/trigger voltage in, more vca's in everything! maybe that's not modular thinking because one can patch that without problem, but i still think gates and triggers are kinda "dumb"...
hw408
Interesting idea someone mentioned using two vcas to do "velocity" behavior. Made me think.

What comes to mind about velocity while thinking in x0x drum machine mode, is having one knob affect "accent" across multiple drum voices. Maybe mult one sequencer "accent" track into multiple drum modules accents, or through a vca first? It took some playing to figure out how tiptip drums actually behave in response to accent cv. Then i decide for drums maybe this is where just using the drum machine is simpler.

beatstep is a pain to try to use the velocity outputs, seems the range is always weird depending on what is receiving them, and then to go inspect and change every step's value sucks. If there was a global amount control to offset all those steps velocities proportionally, that would be awesome.
DJMaytag
bedhed3000 wrote:
But then again, this entire thread is the result of a semantic confusion/disagreement so whatevers.

Holy hell yes, I can't believe how convoluted this whole thing has gotten.

I think that, based on the link shared above, the question should have been "Is it too much to ask for more than 1 CV and 1 gate per track on a multitrack sequencer?"

I only see a few options that fulfill the main requirement of 2 CV's per track, (without having to sacrifice tracks), on a multitrack sequencer:

ER-101 (requires an external clock source?)
Nerdseq
FLXS1

I honestly don't know much about any of these three, so... research time.
euromorcego
DJMaytag wrote:

I think that, based on the link shared above, the question should have been "Is it too much to ask for more than 1 CV and 1 gate per track on a multitrack sequencer?"

I only see a few options that fulfill the main requirement of 2 CV's per track, (without having to sacrifice tracks), on a multitrack sequencer:

weird discussion. But at the risk of adding more confusion: I think you are entirely mistaken about the "having to sacrifice tracks".

If you want one cv output (pitch) then you need one track. If you need another cv output (velocity or whatever) you need another track. I fail to see how this "sacrifices" anything.

On the contrary, if there are two cv outputs and just one gate, it precludes that anyone uses this cv output as another pitch/gate track. So why not add another gate (gate outs are much simpler to add than DA converter with good resolution).

For example the Hermod (as flawed as it may be) lets you choose if you use 2 cv outs for pitch and velocity, or just one cv/gate pair (and you can still use the unused gate output for something else). It is just your perception that this "sacrifices" tracks ... the alternative would be that you still need 2 tracks to store/edit the two cv values (you just call it "one track"), you still need two DA converter for CV. So, given the same components and costs, it would be a four track sequencer instead of eight ... what is the advantage?

You may say that you want the extra cv outputs in addition. ok, I agree, more is always more ... but it also costs more. So then it would be better to add another set of (rather simple to implement) gates to add flexibility, and you are back to square one and complain again. seriously, i just don't get it
coolshirtdotjpg
starthief wrote:
Dcramer wrote:
Funny story; I have a Qunexus which I bought as a keyboard and as an interface.
Problem is there’s always been a bug in it that makes the velocity CV output always output the same high voltage making it useless!
And if you contact KMI service, even though they’ve never fixed the bug, they pretend like there is no bug, because they’ve all forgotten about it! very frustrating


I had similar trouble with a KMI K-Board, before it died completely. I never really liked the feel of it or felt like the pitch bending stuff was controllable at all, either.


Anyway, I have my CV.OCD configured for 3 voices rather than 4, with the first one having both CV and velocity... and I find I rarely patch the velocity.

But when I sequence with Mimetic Digitalis or a matrix mixer/gates combination, I often dedicate one or more CV channels to something other than pitch.


Did you send the k-board back? I used to work there and in my experience returns were always accepted, I would sometimes do repairs on parts tolerance with qunexus units when that was an issue. I have not been affiliated with them for 4 years and have no idea how things are now, but there are a lot of good people there who can fix you up, for free.
coolshirtdotjpg
DJMaytag wrote:
bedhed3000 wrote:
But then again, this entire thread is the result of a semantic confusion/disagreement so whatevers.

Holy hell yes, I can't believe how convoluted this whole thing has gotten.

I think that, based on the link shared above, the question should have been "Is it too much to ask for more than 1 CV and 1 gate per track on a multitrack sequencer?"

I only see a few options that fulfill the main requirement of 2 CV's per track, (without having to sacrifice tracks), on a multitrack sequencer:

ER-101 (requires an external clock source?)
Nerdseq
FLXS1

I honestly don't know much about any of these three, so... research time.


Does varigate 8+ and voltage block count?
DJMaytag
Is my Keystep a 3 track keyboard? Is a KB37 a 5 track keyboard?

A “track” should encompass some basic performance capabilities available on keyboards, and while I think that a voltage that serves the purpose of a velocity control should be part of anything called a “track” on a multitrack sequencer. Others might disagree and say that vibrato, aftertouch, or pitchbend should be more important than velocity. The ability to configure such a mod output is why I think the Keystep is such a hit, and why the KB37 is $800+, sans any modules in it (gotta say that having velocity, aftertouch, AND vibrato available was pretty damn nice when I got to borrow one for a few days).
kwaidan
The Doepfer low-cost A-132 VCA is good for controlling the level of an envelope with velocity. There are actually two CV inputs, so you can add aftertouch, etc.

starthief
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Did you send the k-board back?...


It was... 3 years ago maybe? I think I just wrote it off because I didn't really like it that much anyway; I was willing to live with it while it (sort of) worked but was also kind of relieved to move on to something else.

(As it turned out, that "something else" was a Microbrute, which eventually was my gateway into Eurorack, so, a win there overall.)
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