It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?

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It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?

Yes
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No
66
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Total votes: 145

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luketeaford
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Post by luketeaford » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:26 pm

timoka wrote:i always thought and still think that it would be really useful if a dynamic message would be transported through gate or trigger voltage, meaning making these binary messages a bit more "informative"
I think what you're describing is a S&H not a VCA. :tu:

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Post by luketeaford » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:36 pm

DJMaytag wrote:"Is it too much to ask for more than 1 CV and 1 gate per track on a multitrack sequencer?"
I think the question should be "what is a multitrack sequencer?" :)

Say you have a sequencer with 1 row of CV and one row of gate. The most obvious (but certainly not only approach) is to use CV for pitch and gate to trigger envelopes that open a VCA or whatever.

Now you add another row of CV. Cool, an obvious choice to you is to use that CV for velocity. I would probably prefer this row to control the clock to slow it down or speed it up and generate a rhythm that way. Someone else wants the third row of CV for setting wet/dry mix on some effect.

The moment we players start asking for predefined things, we start making things less modular. The Mother 32 sequencer has gate, accent (also a gate signal but expresses the "velocity" concept), and pitch.

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Post by DJMaytag » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:28 pm

luketeaford wrote:The moment we players start asking for predefined things, we start making things less modular. The Mother 32 sequencer has gate, accent (also a gate signal but expresses the "velocity" concept), and pitch.
As I’ve noted earlier, at least one configurable “mod” output would seem like something that should be a standard now. What that output does should be modular, but it seems a bit nuts to me that anyone would say “no, we don’t need another voltage output, we have enough... thanks!”
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Post by justin3am » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:35 pm

luketeaford wrote:
timoka wrote:i always thought and still think that it would be really useful if a dynamic message would be transported through gate or trigger voltage, meaning making these binary messages a bit more "informative"
I think what you're describing is a S&H not a VCA. :tu:
There are envelopes which behave the way timoka described. For example if you use the Signal input on Maths, the amplitude of the Gate will determine the maximum amplitude of the envelope output. I think there are other envelopes which behave the same way.

I don't have a gate source which takes advantage of this feature but I could see it being useful, as it would reduce the number of necessary VCAs.
Last edited by justin3am on Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jakobprogsch » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:44 pm

DJMaytag wrote:...but it seems a bit nuts to me that anyone would say “no, we don’t need another voltage output, we have enough... thanks!”
Funny, if I saw something that had two cv channels but only one gate channel I'd think "those bastards saved the single jack they would have needed for the second gate channel!"

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Post by DJMaytag » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:56 pm

jakobprogsch wrote:Funny, if I saw something that had two cv channels but only one gate channel I'd think "those bastards saved the single jack they would have needed for the second gate channel!"
Why would you need a second gate channel? Use a mult if you you need to trigger more than one thing!
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Post by luketeaford » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:09 pm

justin3am wrote:There are envelopes which behave the way timoka described. For example if you use the Signal input on Maths, the amplitude of the Gate will determine the maximum amplitude of the envelope output.
Yes, good call, but there is a relationship with the ASR envelope that patch makes. I was intending to point out that a S&H is a good way to use a gate or trigger signal to derive a more interesting (stepped continuous) signal. You bring up another excellent point that why not expect every sequencer to give you gates AND triggers per step because sometimes you need to convert... :)

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Post by brandonlogic » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:13 pm

DJMaytag wrote:
jakobprogsch wrote:Funny, if I saw something that had two cv channels but only one gate channel I'd think "those bastards saved the single jack they would have needed for the second gate channel!"
Why would you need a second gate channel? Use a mult if you you need to trigger more than one thing!
Still waiting to hear what you think of the sequencers mentioned in this thread that DO have mod + cv + gate channels per channel you have not commented on them yet........ they do exist you know!!! I have two of them :omg:

:miley:
Last edited by brandonlogic on Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by luketeaford » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:15 pm

DJMaytag wrote:As I’ve noted earlier, at least one configurable “mod” output would seem like something that should be a standard now.
I am agreeing with you-- except that this is where choice and variety is how I like solving the problem. Rene has two channels but you have to lock one and you can't edit them simultaneously so the QCV output is just a fancy word for pitch.

The Verbos Voltage Multistage has two channels that are 0-10V and unquantized PLUS a gate output PLUS a falling ramp over the length of the stage PLUS individual gate outputs. None of it is "standard" and that's the great thing about it.

In another thread, you're asking why someone would need another channel of gate-- because just how you want a pitch channel and a mod channel, another player might want a pitch channel, a mod channel, a gate channel, and that second unrelated gate channel would be for some other thing.

The only way for everyone to be satisfied is to make a variety of sequencers with different characteristics for different players and sometimes to use multiple sequencers together.

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Post by DJMaytag » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:03 pm

brandonlogic wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:
jakobprogsch wrote:Funny, if I saw something that had two cv channels but only one gate channel I'd think "those bastards saved the single jack they would have needed for the second gate channel!"
Why would you need a second gate channel? Use a mult if you you need to trigger more than one thing!
Still waiting to hear what you think of the sequencers mentioned in this thread that DO have mod + cv + gate channels per channel you have not commented on them yet........ they do exist you know!!! I have two of them :omg:

:miley:
I'll have to see how you use them the next MKE Synth Meetup, but I don't know much about either, TBH. The tracker thing might rule out the Nerdseq, as I've never used a Tracker program before... and I might just be too damn old to learn now. It looks interesting, but how close to a X0X style sequencer can it be?

I talked to Aaron from 1010 Music last year at Knobcon, and at the time their Toolbox module seemed a bit limited, i.e. "only 4 tracks," while the Eloquencer had just been released at at 8 tracks, seemed like some pretty hot shit.

They've developed the firmware/platform a great bit since then, it seems, with some flexibility I wasn't aware of when I started this thread. Yes, it's still limited to 16 outputs than can be configured in various ways, but the MIDI outputs can still be used to do a lot more. That's huge, and could lead to going MIDI out from the Toolbox to an Intellijel uMIDI or a Vermona qMI2 if more CV/gate/velocity control was needed.

Also FWIW, a Cirklon with a DMUX, CVIO, & BOB is probably the closest thing to the perfect sequencer for me, but... I'm still 6 months away from my name coming up on the list and the price for just the base model is a whole lot of :75:'s.
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Post by Stereotactixxx » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:00 am

I must admit I voted NO before I read the OP and realized that this isn't about MIDI/CV interfaces. :bang:

Now I am more like "Dude, just use another row on your sequencer, and if that row has associated triggers/gates, use them as accents".

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Post by chrisso » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:03 am

Funny how the thread centered on sequencers. When I saw the thread title I was thinking, yeah velocity IS undervalued in Eurorack.
I use cv to control velocity using a VCA all the time, but I have to say it's often a fiddly business. It seems to me like some VCAs have too broad a range of voltage scaling. In other words, it's hard to dial in subtle changes in velocity on most of my VCAs, they tend to jump around from very quiet to very loud, or when dialled down, any velocity change is so slight as to be inaudible.
The best velocity response I've heard recently is from DFAM. It really seems responsive.

So in short, my point would be - yes, it would be great if more modules, especially percussive modules, had a velocity input (cv voltage). Especially as velocity effects timbre as well as volume.
Setting up a variety of percussive modules to respond to voltage in terms of volume and timbre is not that straightforward and often doesn't produce as smooth a result as I'm hoping for.
In answer to 99% of the posts in this thread - yeah, I use a second or third voltage to control volume (velocity) all the time in my patches.

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Post by Shledge » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:02 am

Can easily use another channel for velocity. It spits out voltage at the end of the day, so it really doesn't matter if it's not dedicated.

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Post by Hirsbro » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:01 am

In my world velocity is a keyboard feature used to express something of your choice based on how hard you hit a key, as you don't "hit" keys or pads on most eurorack sequencers I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression :roll:

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Post by chrisso » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:30 am

Hirsbro wrote:I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression :roll:
Velocity adds life to any part, especially percussive parts.
Your definition of keyboard feature is only half of the story. Velocity is actually a feature of real instruments as it's impossible for a human to play every note at exactly the same velocity, therefore giving the performed passage some life.
It's not a 'must have' for me, but I do think a velocity input on some modules, especially percussive ones, would be a plus.

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Post by Hirsbro » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:17 am

chrisso wrote:
Hirsbro wrote:I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression :roll:
Velocity adds life to any part, especially percussive parts.
Your definition of keyboard feature is only half of the story. Velocity is actually a feature of real instruments as it's impossible for a human to play every note at exactly the same velocity, therefore giving the performed passage some life.
It's not a 'must have' for me, but I do think a velocity input on some modules, especially percussive ones, would be a plus.
My point was that you dont punch or press something therefor no reason to call it velocity, and as i said "in my world" ppl apparently just want a CV out labeled "velocity" maybe because they are comfortable with that term...

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Post by flashheart » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:20 pm

One of the smaller Eurorack makers proposed using varying trigger / gate levels to transmit dynamic information. Pretty sure mine was the only reply to the post. :despair:

Yes we can tie up multiple sequencers and do really clever stuff driving multiple CVs, but what's wrong with an additional simple solution that actually transmits some extra information? If you don't want to use it ignore it. People sometimes seem to want to jump through hoops to achieve dynamics.

Any module that accepts triggers / gates SHOULD respond to anything over say 1.5v (ie. use a comparator on the input). Most slope generator type modules (Maths, Function etc) can respond to varying gate levels. What's wrong with a bit of extra control?
I'm not buying a maths though, not my idea of fun...

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Post by organon » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:44 pm

flashheart wrote: Any module that accepts triggers / gates SHOULD respond to anything over say 1.5v (ie. use a comparator on the input). Most slope generator type modules (Maths, Function etc) can respond to varying gate levels. What's wrong with a bit of extra control?
I think if manufacturers started doing that the result would be endless complications and incompatibilities. There's already modules that have difficulties accepting gates or triggers from certain others because of wrong levels.

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Post by gonkulator » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:14 pm

Hirsbro wrote:
chrisso wrote:
Hirsbro wrote:I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression :roll:
Velocity adds life to any part, especially percussive parts.
Your definition of keyboard feature is only half of the story. Velocity is actually a feature of real instruments as it's impossible for a human to play every note at exactly the same velocity, therefore giving the performed passage some life.
It's not a 'must have' for me, but I do think a velocity input on some modules, especially percussive ones, would be a plus.
My point was that you dont punch or press something therefor no reason to call it velocity, and as i said "in my world" ppl apparently just want a CV out labeled "velocity" maybe because they are comfortable with that term...
Yes, Velocity is only relevant within a patch or system that has defined connections from the input (typically keyboard that transmits the velocity data) to a destination or destinations that are set up to interpret it. In any integrated synth, there is no strict definition as to what destinations velocity affects. It could be just volume, or volume and filter cutoff, etc. A modular patch should be able to accommodate whatever parameters per note/hit are desired, with the added benefit of being able to define these in pretty much any way you want. Even if I connect a velocity-transmitting keyboard to my modular system, I would still have to define (and connect to) the destinations of that data, which can be whatever I want.

No one is saying that varying any number of parameters within a sequence shouldn't be considered. It is just that there is no way to predefine this within a truly modular system.
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Re: It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND veloc

Post by WaveRider » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:40 pm

DJMaytag wrote:Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches?

especially for drums!!!!! without at least an accent level drum are lifeless.

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Re: It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND veloc

Post by kwaidan » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:00 pm

WaveRider wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches?

especially for drums!!!!! without at least an accent level drum are lifeless.
Acidlab drum modules are sensitive to trigger voltage level. According to the manual, the Gate In is “`sensitive` and affects the sound. The higher the pulse (+5V to +12V) at the Gate In the more attack and louder the sound gets.”

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Post by arfo » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:07 pm

Perhaps some of the confusion stems from the use of the word velocity.

The word itself simply means speed and it was used in the MIDI protocol as a stand in for how strongly a key was pressed in a MIDI keyboard - and it could be recorded in a MIDI sequencer (or not).
The fact that this was (practically always) assigned to volume in a sound seems to have made it synonymous with how loud a note sounds, at least for some people. Perhaps this is understandable, since the word sequencer itself can refer to two things that I think are quite different from one another: analog sequencers vs MIDI (& DAW) sequencers.

When I read the thread title, I expected to read about controllers (keyboard and otherwise) and MIDI/CV interfaces.

Otherwise, I think we're simply talking about extra rows of CV on analogue sequencers - and some of the oldest ones in Eurorack (like the doepfer a155) have had them.

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Post by pzoot » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:35 pm

Poster #1: “I think Eurorack sequencers should be able to record MIDI Velocity messages from my MIDI controller and convert the 1-127 into 0-5V CV signals”

Poster #2: “That’s ridiculous, why would you want more CV outputs per track in your sequencer. You can use the sliders on your Voltage Block to record a CV track to control amplitude, ahem, I mean velocity”

Poster #3: “Yeah totally. Poster #1 is obviously not a real Eurorack person. Otherwise, they would know that you can make things softer or louder by patching any old sequence and an audio source into a VCA”

Poster #4: “No, I agree with Poster #1. Drum modules should always have built in VCAs with a CV input labeled Velocity”

Poster #5: “I use a DSI Pro 2 and it does ALL of this. It has a keyboard, a sequencer that records MIDI velocity, I can route that to a CV output, which I route back into the machine via a CV input and map that via the modulation matrix to control the volume of Osc 1. I don’t know why you guys keep throwing away your money on Eurorack”

Poster #3: “Because my modular can do everything the Pro 2 can do, and more, and with total flexibility”

Poster #5: “Can it record velocity?”

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Post by synkrotron » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:20 pm

I think the poll should have had a "not that bothered" option.

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Post by chrisso » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:20 am

Hirsbro wrote:
My point was that you dont punch or press something therefor no reason to call it velocity,
We're talking about music here, and velocity has become a musically useful term.
It seems highly pedantic to suggest you can't have an element of velocity on a percussive module, unless it's being programmed by a midi keyboard.

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