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It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next [all]

It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
Yes
52%
 52%  [ 71 ]
No
47%
 47%  [ 64 ]
Total Votes : 135

Author It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
Yes Powder
chrisso wrote:
We're talking about music here, and velocity has become a musically useful term.
It seems highly pedantic to suggest you can't have an element of velocity on a percussive module, unless it's being programmed by a midi keyboard.


The whole point the anti-velocity crowd is trying to make is that you don't need an input or output labeled "VELOCITY" to get velocity-like effects on a modular. It can be done with a little bit of patching of a couple functions that any well-balanced system should have plenty to spare.
(BIG HINT: srsly never )
At the risk of stoking these flames further, I'd argue that anyone can't figure out at least one way to do so would probably be better off with a Nord Lead and DrumBrute.
Peter Grenader </controversial statement>
lisa
Also, an output labeled ”velocity” would be nonsensical since it would output CV that could be used for anything in a modular enviroment. There is no such thing as velocity specific CV.
Shledge
^ This. Often handy for changing filter cutoff, VCA levels of modulations etc.
euromorcego
Yes Powder wrote:

The whole point the anti-velocity crowd is trying to make is that you don't need an input or output labeled "VELOCITY" to get velocity-like effects on a modular. ....

indeed!

And the 2nd point is: many (more complex) sequencer and (almost all) midi-cv interfaces actually DO HAVE a cv out for velocity.

Typically these cv interfaces or sequencer (such as MI Yarns, Hermod and others) let you decide if you want to use a channel/track with several cv outs or not. For example with Yarns you can have 4 cv outs per channel (pitch, velocity, modulation, assign). Same with Hermod.

But people can also choose to use the 4 cv outputs as individual pitch cv outputs if they so want.

And this was what the OP started whining about. He said all pitch cv out MUST be accompanied with a velocity out. A velocity output that must not be used as a picth cv out by other people ever ... because compared to these people he would then "sacrifice" a channel (hey, these people have 4 channels in Yarns, and I can only use 2 with velocity, so they should not be allowed to do this).

Bottom line: the problem of the OP does not exist. There are plenty of cv interfaces and sequencer that let you assign a velocity output. Of course, this requires more cv outs that otherwise could be used for pitch cv. But so what? It simply gives people a choice. To then complain about "sacrificing" channels is nonsense.
chrisso
Yes Powder wrote:

The whole point the anti-velocity crowd is trying to make is that you don't need an input or output labeled "VELOCITY" to get velocity-like effects on a modular. It can be done with a little bit of patching of a couple functions that any well-balanced system should have plenty to spare.
(BIG HINT: srsly never )


Yes, I already agreed with that.
However my point is two fold.
I find a lot of VCAs are difficult to fine tune. The resultant volume changes are too big, going from inaudible to loud. Or the volume changes are too subtle, meaning you can't hear any velocity change in a mix with other parts playing.
I have worked on this for years, with various different VCAs, using sequencer voltage outputs, or separate voltages from Expert Sleepers etc, with attenuators etc, etc..

My second point is, as velocity effects both volume and timbre, it is more painstaking to patch. No need for "hint VCA'.
Therefore, especially in drum modules, it would be a NICE feature, not talking 'essential' here, but 'nice', if there was a velocity INPUT that had some effect on volume AND timbre.
chrisso
lisa wrote:
Also, an output labeled ”velocity” would be nonsensical


What about an input, especially (probably exclusively) on modules with internal VCAs, or percussive focused modules.
The 'velocity' aspect of DFAM is some of the best I've heard in modular.
You actually don't often hear variable velocity in modular patches, probably because it is hard to accurately dial in.
lisa
chrisso It sounds like you have experience with VCAs with exponential response curves. They will sort of go from nothing to max (not really but, you know). Linear VCAs will do what you want.
chrisso
Oh OK, probably right. Many of my VCAs are unmarked as to what they are )(exp/lin). I will have to check, or see if I need yet another VCA.
hihi
Thanks
euromorcego
chrisso wrote:

My second point is, as velocity effects both volume and timbre, it is more painstaking to patch. No need for "hint VCA'.
Therefore, especially in drum modules, it would be a NICE feature, not talking 'essential' here, but 'nice', if there was a velocity INPUT that had some effect on volume AND timbre.

this is also true in conventional synths. "Velocity" (as played on a keyboard) may affect many aspects of a sounds, decay, brightness (filter)., etc .... not just amplitude.

So in a drum modules it would be a quite complex parameter, and the question is if people would want such an overall "fixed architecture" parameter (rather than e.g. patching decay and filter individually). Of course, it would make things easier (but only if you are looking for exactly that kind of "fixed architecture" parameter). Then we are back: what is a modular synth good for?

Many drummodules actually have a kind of dynamics control, such as accent or choke or strike. Some even respond to the amplitude of the trigger.
Hirsbro
chrisso wrote:
Hirsbro wrote:


My point was that you dont punch or press something therefor no reason to call it velocity,


We're talking about music here, and velocity has become a musically useful term.
It seems highly pedantic to suggest you can't have an element of velocity on a percussive module, unless it's being programmed by a midi keyboard.


who says you cant? not me.
chrisso
euromorcego wrote:

Many drummodules actually have a kind of dynamics control, such as accent or choke or strike. Some even respond to the amplitude of the trigger.


I have had quite a few and still have many. Not many have that 'dynamics control' IMO. That's all I suggested.
It's a great feature when they do.
WaveRider
kwaidan wrote:
WaveRider wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches?



especially for drums!!!!! without at least an accent level drum are lifeless.


Acidlab drum modules are sensitive to trigger voltage level. According to the manual, the Gate In is “`sensitive` and affects the sound. The higher the pulse (+5V to +12V) at the Gate In the more attack and louder the sound gets.”


yes tip top modules too have accent level, but we are talking about sequencers not having that cv out that can be used as a velocity or loudness parameter
evs
The fast answer to the question“is it too much to ask for...“ is „yes“.
It’s too much to ask for, and does not make sense in the modular world.
The reasons have been given enough here.

I would not like the manufacturer to make thought about how we should use the cv outs. That would be definitely a sequencer I would not buy.
brandonlogic
The only way I see it making sense, would be if there was a sequencer with velocity sensitive MPC like pads and you could tap in and record your sequences, which actually would be pretty cool!
evs
chrisso wrote:
Yes Powder wrote:

The whole point the anti-velocity crowd is trying to make is that you don't need an input or output labeled "VELOCITY" to get velocity-like effects on a modular. It can be done with a little bit of patching of a couple functions that any well-balanced system should have plenty to spare.
(BIG HINT: srsly never )


Yes, I already agreed with that.
However my point is two fold.
I find a lot of VCAs are difficult to fine tune. The resultant volume changes are too big, going from inaudible to loud. Or the volume changes are too subtle, meaning you can't hear any velocity change in a mix with other parts playing.
I have worked on this for years, with various different VCAs, using sequencer voltage outputs, or separate voltages from Expert Sleepers etc, with attenuators etc, etc..

My second point is, as velocity effects both volume and timbre, it is more painstaking to patch. No need for "hint VCA'.
Therefore, especially in drum modules, it would be a NICE feature, not talking 'essential' here, but 'nice', if there was a velocity INPUT that had some effect on volume AND timbre.


To point one: that’s strange. Maybe you have the wrong vcas... it should be simple to tweak, for example, a uvca to your liking. Not possible to be difficult to tune, as long as you know what you are doing..

To point 2: patch the timbre you want. A multiple or stackable is your friend here. One cable goes to your vca, the other to the timbre you want, or to the other vca Controlling the timbre you want... it’s not painstaking, it’s what it’s all about in modular....
synkrotron
chrisso wrote:

We're talking about music here.


Music? Where? Mr. Green
synkrotron
BSP has CV out labeled "velocity" but, yeah, it's just a label and I use it for all manner of shenanigans.
geetee
ER-101
Yes Powder
chrisso wrote:
Yes, I already agreed with that.
However my point is two fold.
I find a lot of VCAs are difficult to fine tune. The resultant volume changes are too big, going from inaudible to loud. Or the volume changes are too subtle, meaning you can't hear any velocity change in a mix with other parts playing.
I have worked on this for years, with various different VCAs, using sequencer voltage outputs, or separate voltages from Expert Sleepers etc, with attenuators etc, etc..

Have you played around with log/exp scaling? Adjusting the shape of the curve and adding a little offset could be what you’re looking for.
EDIT: I see that Lisa already covered this. Sorry, posted this just as I woke up.

Quote:
My second point is, as velocity effects both volume and timbre, it is more painstaking to patch. No need for "hint VCA'.
Therefore, especially in drum modules, it would be a NICE feature, not talking 'essential' here, but 'nice', if there was a velocity INPUT that had some effect on volume AND timbre.

I guess we’re in disagreement here. I’m not interested in paying extra for a module that has a dedicated input for something I’d just do otherwise with a couple utilities I already have and a stackable.
EDIT 2: EVS covered this too.
thee ghost ov n_phay
"dynamics" might be a better term than "velocity". Totally agree w the OP and also w chrisso. This is why I bought a Vermona QMI (4 channels EACH w note CV, gate and 2 x programmable CV outs) for my midi/cv interface and a BSP for my programmable pattern sequencer over other similar products. It does my nut in when I see a programmable pattern/chain sequencer where each channel only has a single CV and gate output.
dbeats
I usually also want to sequence more signals per instrument than just one gate and one cv. But it is rarely "velocity". It starts with drum module accents and ends up with voltage blocking each cv in on my BIA, Manis, Plonk and Entity percussion.
kwaidan
WaveRider wrote:
kwaidan wrote:
WaveRider wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches?



especially for drums!!!!! without at least an accent level drum are lifeless.


Acidlab drum modules are sensitive to trigger voltage level. According to the manual, the Gate In is “`sensitive` and affects the sound. The higher the pulse (+5V to +12V) at the Gate In the more attack and louder the sound gets.”


yes tip top modules too have accent level, but we are talking about sequencers not having that cv out that can be used as a velocity or loudness parameter


Indirectly, I was making the argument that there are drum modules available that would benefit from a sequencer with velocity.

With Acidlab, a drum module will sound louder if you send it 7V versus 5V, and 12V will sound louder than 7V or 8V. In contrast, TipTop modules only have two fixed volume levels, normal and accent.

The Jomox ModBase 09 also has a velocity sensitive trigger input that can be used, for example, with a Piezo mic.

Of course, this feature would be better paired with drum pads. Hypothetically, however, a sequencer could be developed with user-definable random function attached to each drum channel.
metasonix
DJMaytag wrote:
I love what some newer sequencers are doing, but I'm on a rant right now because there's pretty much only CV/gate outputs on the most interesting sequencers out right now (Eloquencer, Hermod, Toolbox). As much as I want to sequence right in my rack, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

BUY TWO AND SYNC THEM. razz
WaveRider
kwaidan wrote:
In contrast, TipTop modules only have two fixed volume levels, normal and accent.



no the accent CV in TT mmodules is continuously variable, higher voltage, louder sounds.
kwaidan
WaveRider wrote:
kwaidan wrote:
In contrast, TipTop modules only have two fixed volume levels, normal and accent.



no the accent CV in TT mmodules is continuously variable, higher voltage, louder sounds.


So accent is variable on a TT module; however, that input, if I am correct, will only raises the volume level from a certain base level. I only have one TT module, but I’ll play around with it.

With an Acidlab module, you can vary volume level with one cv input, and basically, go from inaudible to pounding.
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