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It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next [all]

It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
Yes
52%
 52%  [ 71 ]
No
47%
 47%  [ 64 ]
Total Votes : 135

Author It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
DJMaytag
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches? It seems like most devices (mainly sequencers) are leaving out velocity as a standard option. You'd think that we've moved beyond 1983 by now, which is about the last time that non-velocity keyboard synths were fairly regular.

I love what some newer sequencers are doing, but I'm on a rant right now because there's pretty much only CV/gate outputs on the most interesting sequencers out right now (Eloquencer, Hermod, Toolbox). As much as I want to sequence right in my rack, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

Am I nuts? Change my mind! grin
Yes Powder
Why does a sequencer need "velocity"? What would "velocity" even BE for a sequencer?
There are plenty of sequencers that have two or more controllable outputs, if that's what you mean. I'm looking at my A-155 right now.
Anyways, there are more efficient ways to simulate velocity by using euclidean sequencers, envelopes, and LFOs than it is to tweak a velocity value for each note, especially on long and/or polymetric sequences.
Dcramer
Funny story; I have a Qunexus which I bought as a keyboard and as an interface.
Problem is there’s always been a bug in it that makes the velocity CV output always output the same high voltage making it useless!
And if you contact KMI service, even though they’ve never fixed the bug, they pretend like there is no bug, because they’ve all forgotten about it! very frustrating
mdoudoroff
There’s nothing preventing you from using a spare CV channel on one of those snazzy sequencers to handle “velocity” (or other) modulation.
dubonaire
DJMaytag wrote:
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches? It seems like most devices (mainly sequencers) are leaving out velocity as a standard option. You'd think that we've moved beyond 1983 by now, which is about the last time that non-velocity keyboard synths were fairly regular.

I love what some newer sequencers are doing, but I'm on a rant right now because there's pretty much only CV/gate outputs on the most interesting sequencers out right now (Eloquencer, Hermod, Toolbox). As much as I want to sequence right in my rack, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

Am I nuts? Change my mind! grin


All of those sequencers you mentioned are capable of velocity CV. The simple way to do it is have two VCAs in series, one controlled by an envelope an one controlled by velocity CV.
starthief
Dcramer wrote:
Funny story; I have a Qunexus which I bought as a keyboard and as an interface.
Problem is there’s always been a bug in it that makes the velocity CV output always output the same high voltage making it useless!
And if you contact KMI service, even though they’ve never fixed the bug, they pretend like there is no bug, because they’ve all forgotten about it! very frustrating


I had similar trouble with a KMI K-Board, before it died completely. I never really liked the feel of it or felt like the pitch bending stuff was controllable at all, either.


Anyway, I have my CV.OCD configured for 3 voices rather than 4, with the first one having both CV and velocity... and I find I rarely patch the velocity.

But when I sequence with Mimetic Digitalis or a matrix mixer/gates combination, I often dedicate one or more CV channels to something other than pitch.
luketeaford
dubonaire wrote:
The simple way to do it is have two VCAs in series, one controlled by an envelope an one controlled by velocity CV.


100% agree with this statement. There are a lot of ways to patch velocity in modular and I prefer to figure it out myself for each patch.
astrodislocate
you know what i think is that instead of having like, a sequencer with a number of channels that each have their own cv and gate output, they should just have one single channel with that same number of cv and gate outputs that would normally be wasted on the other channels, and you should be able to program the those extra outputs for each step of the sequence seperately from the two outputs you'd normally use for that one channel
Jumbuktu
I don't really want a sequencer with two or more rows of CV control. With everything locked to the same sequence, it's difficult to get variation. I find it much better to use mutiple sequencers, of different lengths, to control things like filter CV, EG release, glide etc. If they were all in the same sequence, it would just repeat the same way every time.
hyena
velocity is only a conventional term inside the MIDI language.
in modular world you can achieve ways of processing dynamics and loudness that go far beyond the "velocity" parameter mapped to this or that. so i see absolutely no need for implementing velocity other than inside midi to cv modules
subdo
Both of my sequencing options (BSP, MPC>Yarns) have options for velocity. PP/Brains has 3 CV outs and could easily handle velocity. I guess what I'm saying is the options exist. Not everyone cares about a 3rd CV so not every sequencer will have it but there are certainly options if that's what you want.
lisa
I wouldn’t want that type of sequencer in my rack. Velocity is relevant in my DAW and Elektron boxes. In my rack I control the volume of a sound in 100 different ways.
lisa
brandonlogic
Flxs1 or Nerdseq
They both have modulation channels in addition to cv/gate that can work great for velocity.
falseeye
I see alot of people kinda critical of this question of wether to have velocity in a eurorack sequencer . of course in theory you can make anything happen in eurorack including a little velocity like effects to your sequence but im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not? I know on the DFAM it has it built into the sequencer and i love it , it imo actually makes the module much more usefull than if it didnt , and in retrospect if i hadnt had the dfam to try velocity with my eurorack i probably wouldnt know what i was missing
R.U.Nuts
I don't get it: Is this a question about why not all euro sequencers have at least two channels of CV so you can modulate frequency and amplitude of a signal seperately?
starthief
falseeye wrote:
im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not?


Snobbery has nothing to do with it.

Velocity is a specific feature in MIDI. A MIDI sequence contains note on messages with a velocity and a note number in them.

"Velocity" has no real meaning in Eurorack. Eurorack sequencers just send voltages; they don't care what you do with them. Maybe it's pitch, but maybe it's clock speed, amplitude, probability of letting a gate pass, modulation amount, timbre, a switch that other sequencers are patched to...

Eurorack doesn't even tie pitch to note events. If something happens to sequence CV and gate, you can use it that way, or you can ignore the gates and use some other gate source, or patch the gate as a reset back into the sequencer.

Plenty (but not all) MIDI converters will happily convert velocity to a CV for you.
DonaldCrunk
dubonaire wrote:


All of those sequencers you mentioned are capable of velocity CV. The simple way to do it is have two VCAs in series, one controlled by an envelope an one controlled by velocity CV.


This is the complete answer to this problem.


I'm not sure how a standalone step sequencer would even implement "velocity" with any completeness - you could sharpie over one of the CV outputs with the word 'velocity' if that makes you feel better, but you still have to modulate the amplitude of the voice somehow (make it louder and softer) - thus requiring you to patch to a VCA somewhere in your voice's signal chain.

The most sensible implementation to me is in the eurorack drum module world, where a drum module may have a 'velocity' input that addresses an internal VCA and allows any generic 0-8v CV to regulate the amplitude. Of course 'complete' voice modules like DFAM will have this function, because the Sequencer and VCA are part of the same module - but this function must be *patched* in traditional modular synthesis.


These are my favorite learning moments - discovering something you wish your modular did, and then learning to patch it yourself with stuff you already have!
nostalghia
At the risk of arguing semantics, seems to me (and some others who have posted) that the term "velocity" should be reserved for a CV or Midi output of a keyboard (or at least some form of controller) that has keys, pads, etc. that can be struck faster/harder or slower/lighter. In the context of a sequencer, you're really just referring to a dedicated extra CV track used to modulate something other than pitch-audio amplitude in this case, right? Unless I'm misunderstanding something. So yeah, use another VCA channel in the patch.

By the way, if you already have a sequencer you like that has a single CV out and you're using it for pitch (melodic notes), and you wish it had another track for modulation, consider just adding another small sequencer running off the same clock. Something like the XAOC Tirana. 6hp, uni or bipolar CV, can transpose and change play direction via CV input to add variety or randomness. Multiple units can be chained if you want more than 4 steps. Mod Grid link: XAOC Tirana
DJMaytag
falseeye wrote:
I see alot of people kinda critical of this question of wether to have velocity in a eurorack sequencer . of course in theory you can make anything happen in eurorack including a little velocity like effects to your sequence but im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not? I know on the DFAM it has it built into the sequencer and i love it , it imo actually makes the module much more usefull than if it didnt , and in retrospect if i hadnt had the dfam to try velocity with my eurorack i probably wouldnt know what i was missing

I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018. I get that extra hardware outputs = added cost (not sure if added the feature in firmware costs much more), so at least figure out a way to put a header or two on the main sequencer module so extra outputs can be added later.

Eloquencer's screen seems like a PERFECT setup for selecting one of its tracks, and then hitting alternate view to show 16 columns of velocity/mod for each track. They've mentioned that such an extra output for velocity/mod would be possible, but nothing as far as how that would work in their software.
DonaldCrunk
DJMaytag wrote:

I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018.


These are the types of signals in the modular world - CV (continuous voltage 0-10v), Gate (event trigger that stays high for the duration of the step/press), trigger (same as gate but with fixed pulse duration), and Audio. There is no 'velocity' signal type.
starthief
DJMaytag wrote:
I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018.


Because CV is all Eurorack has. Gates are CVs (if specialized, limited ones with two values... but you can attenuate a gate or slew it or highpass filter it or all kinds of other things). Audio is CVs. Everything is CVs. None of it has any meaning except that which is given to it by patching (and how you conceptualilze it).
lisa
DJMaytag But that extra track would just be another sequencer track that could be used for anything. So, you could use Eloquencer as a four track melodic sequencer with velocity control. Problem solved. seriously, i just don't get it
Yes Powder
falseeye wrote:
hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not?


If I just took a multichannel sequencer and wrote "VELOCITY" in black sharpie on the 2nd channel output, would that suffice?
Miley Cyrus
Vanden92
DJMaytag wrote:
falseeye wrote:
I see alot of people kinda critical of this question of wether to have velocity in a eurorack sequencer . of course in theory you can make anything happen in eurorack including a little velocity like effects to your sequence but im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not? I know on the DFAM it has it built into the sequencer and i love it , it imo actually makes the module much more usefull than if it didnt , and in retrospect if i hadnt had the dfam to try velocity with my eurorack i probably wouldnt know what i was missing

I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018. I get that extra hardware outputs = added cost (not sure if added the feature in firmware costs much more), so at least figure out a way to put a header or two on the main sequencer module so extra outputs can be added later.

Eloquencer's screen seems like a PERFECT setup for selecting one of its tracks, and then hitting alternate view to show 16 columns of velocity/mod for each track. They've mentioned that such an extra output for velocity/mod would be possible, but nothing as far as how that would work in their software.


But you would still require an additional VCA for this velocity to have any effect on the amplitude.
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