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It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  

It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
Yes
52%
 52%  [ 71 ]
No
47%
 47%  [ 64 ]
Total Votes : 135

Author It's 2018... is it too much to ask for CV/Gate AND velocity?
DJMaytag
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches? It seems like most devices (mainly sequencers) are leaving out velocity as a standard option. You'd think that we've moved beyond 1983 by now, which is about the last time that non-velocity keyboard synths were fairly regular.

I love what some newer sequencers are doing, but I'm on a rant right now because there's pretty much only CV/gate outputs on the most interesting sequencers out right now (Eloquencer, Hermod, Toolbox). As much as I want to sequence right in my rack, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

Am I nuts? Change my mind! grin
Yes Powder
Why does a sequencer need "velocity"? What would "velocity" even BE for a sequencer?
There are plenty of sequencers that have two or more controllable outputs, if that's what you mean. I'm looking at my A-155 right now.
Anyways, there are more efficient ways to simulate velocity by using euclidean sequencers, envelopes, and LFOs than it is to tweak a velocity value for each note, especially on long and/or polymetric sequences.
Dcramer
Funny story; I have a Qunexus which I bought as a keyboard and as an interface.
Problem is there’s always been a bug in it that makes the velocity CV output always output the same high voltage making it useless!
And if you contact KMI service, even though they’ve never fixed the bug, they pretend like there is no bug, because they’ve all forgotten about it! very frustrating
mdoudoroff
There’s nothing preventing you from using a spare CV channel on one of those snazzy sequencers to handle “velocity” (or other) modulation.
dubonaire
DJMaytag wrote:
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches? It seems like most devices (mainly sequencers) are leaving out velocity as a standard option. You'd think that we've moved beyond 1983 by now, which is about the last time that non-velocity keyboard synths were fairly regular.

I love what some newer sequencers are doing, but I'm on a rant right now because there's pretty much only CV/gate outputs on the most interesting sequencers out right now (Eloquencer, Hermod, Toolbox). As much as I want to sequence right in my rack, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

Am I nuts? Change my mind! grin


All of those sequencers you mentioned are capable of velocity CV. The simple way to do it is have two VCAs in series, one controlled by an envelope an one controlled by velocity CV.
starthief
Dcramer wrote:
Funny story; I have a Qunexus which I bought as a keyboard and as an interface.
Problem is there’s always been a bug in it that makes the velocity CV output always output the same high voltage making it useless!
And if you contact KMI service, even though they’ve never fixed the bug, they pretend like there is no bug, because they’ve all forgotten about it! very frustrating


I had similar trouble with a KMI K-Board, before it died completely. I never really liked the feel of it or felt like the pitch bending stuff was controllable at all, either.


Anyway, I have my CV.OCD configured for 3 voices rather than 4, with the first one having both CV and velocity... and I find I rarely patch the velocity.

But when I sequence with Mimetic Digitalis or a matrix mixer/gates combination, I often dedicate one or more CV channels to something other than pitch.
luketeaford
dubonaire wrote:
The simple way to do it is have two VCAs in series, one controlled by an envelope an one controlled by velocity CV.


100% agree with this statement. There are a lot of ways to patch velocity in modular and I prefer to figure it out myself for each patch.
astrodislocate
you know what i think is that instead of having like, a sequencer with a number of channels that each have their own cv and gate output, they should just have one single channel with that same number of cv and gate outputs that would normally be wasted on the other channels, and you should be able to program the those extra outputs for each step of the sequence seperately from the two outputs you'd normally use for that one channel
Jumbuktu
I don't really want a sequencer with two or more rows of CV control. With everything locked to the same sequence, it's difficult to get variation. I find it much better to use mutiple sequencers, of different lengths, to control things like filter CV, EG release, glide etc. If they were all in the same sequence, it would just repeat the same way every time.
hyena
velocity is only a conventional term inside the MIDI language.
in modular world you can achieve ways of processing dynamics and loudness that go far beyond the "velocity" parameter mapped to this or that. so i see absolutely no need for implementing velocity other than inside midi to cv modules
subdo
Both of my sequencing options (BSP, MPC>Yarns) have options for velocity. PP/Brains has 3 CV outs and could easily handle velocity. I guess what I'm saying is the options exist. Not everyone cares about a 3rd CV so not every sequencer will have it but there are certainly options if that's what you want.
lisa
I wouldn’t want that type of sequencer in my rack. Velocity is relevant in my DAW and Elektron boxes. In my rack I control the volume of a sound in 100 different ways.
lisa
brandonlogic
Flxs1 or Nerdseq
They both have modulation channels in addition to cv/gate that can work great for velocity.
falseeye
I see alot of people kinda critical of this question of wether to have velocity in a eurorack sequencer . of course in theory you can make anything happen in eurorack including a little velocity like effects to your sequence but im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not? I know on the DFAM it has it built into the sequencer and i love it , it imo actually makes the module much more usefull than if it didnt , and in retrospect if i hadnt had the dfam to try velocity with my eurorack i probably wouldnt know what i was missing
R.U.Nuts
I don't get it: Is this a question about why not all euro sequencers have at least two channels of CV so you can modulate frequency and amplitude of a signal seperately?
starthief
falseeye wrote:
im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not?


Snobbery has nothing to do with it.

Velocity is a specific feature in MIDI. A MIDI sequence contains note on messages with a velocity and a note number in them.

"Velocity" has no real meaning in Eurorack. Eurorack sequencers just send voltages; they don't care what you do with them. Maybe it's pitch, but maybe it's clock speed, amplitude, probability of letting a gate pass, modulation amount, timbre, a switch that other sequencers are patched to...

Eurorack doesn't even tie pitch to note events. If something happens to sequence CV and gate, you can use it that way, or you can ignore the gates and use some other gate source, or patch the gate as a reset back into the sequencer.

Plenty (but not all) MIDI converters will happily convert velocity to a CV for you.
DonaldCrunk
dubonaire wrote:


All of those sequencers you mentioned are capable of velocity CV. The simple way to do it is have two VCAs in series, one controlled by an envelope an one controlled by velocity CV.


This is the complete answer to this problem.


I'm not sure how a standalone step sequencer would even implement "velocity" with any completeness - you could sharpie over one of the CV outputs with the word 'velocity' if that makes you feel better, but you still have to modulate the amplitude of the voice somehow (make it louder and softer) - thus requiring you to patch to a VCA somewhere in your voice's signal chain.

The most sensible implementation to me is in the eurorack drum module world, where a drum module may have a 'velocity' input that addresses an internal VCA and allows any generic 0-8v CV to regulate the amplitude. Of course 'complete' voice modules like DFAM will have this function, because the Sequencer and VCA are part of the same module - but this function must be *patched* in traditional modular synthesis.


These are my favorite learning moments - discovering something you wish your modular did, and then learning to patch it yourself with stuff you already have!
nostalghia
At the risk of arguing semantics, seems to me (and some others who have posted) that the term "velocity" should be reserved for a CV or Midi output of a keyboard (or at least some form of controller) that has keys, pads, etc. that can be struck faster/harder or slower/lighter. In the context of a sequencer, you're really just referring to a dedicated extra CV track used to modulate something other than pitch-audio amplitude in this case, right? Unless I'm misunderstanding something. So yeah, use another VCA channel in the patch.

By the way, if you already have a sequencer you like that has a single CV out and you're using it for pitch (melodic notes), and you wish it had another track for modulation, consider just adding another small sequencer running off the same clock. Something like the XAOC Tirana. 6hp, uni or bipolar CV, can transpose and change play direction via CV input to add variety or randomness. Multiple units can be chained if you want more than 4 steps. Mod Grid link: XAOC Tirana
DJMaytag
falseeye wrote:
I see alot of people kinda critical of this question of wether to have velocity in a eurorack sequencer . of course in theory you can make anything happen in eurorack including a little velocity like effects to your sequence but im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not? I know on the DFAM it has it built into the sequencer and i love it , it imo actually makes the module much more usefull than if it didnt , and in retrospect if i hadnt had the dfam to try velocity with my eurorack i probably wouldnt know what i was missing

I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018. I get that extra hardware outputs = added cost (not sure if added the feature in firmware costs much more), so at least figure out a way to put a header or two on the main sequencer module so extra outputs can be added later.

Eloquencer's screen seems like a PERFECT setup for selecting one of its tracks, and then hitting alternate view to show 16 columns of velocity/mod for each track. They've mentioned that such an extra output for velocity/mod would be possible, but nothing as far as how that would work in their software.
DonaldCrunk
DJMaytag wrote:

I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018.


These are the types of signals in the modular world - CV (continuous voltage 0-10v), Gate (event trigger that stays high for the duration of the step/press), trigger (same as gate but with fixed pulse duration), and Audio. There is no 'velocity' signal type.
starthief
DJMaytag wrote:
I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018.


Because CV is all Eurorack has. Gates are CVs (if specialized, limited ones with two values... but you can attenuate a gate or slew it or highpass filter it or all kinds of other things). Audio is CVs. Everything is CVs. None of it has any meaning except that which is given to it by patching (and how you conceptualilze it).
lisa
DJMaytag But that extra track would just be another sequencer track that could be used for anything. So, you could use Eloquencer as a four track melodic sequencer with velocity control. Problem solved. seriously, i just don't get it
Yes Powder
falseeye wrote:
hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not?


If I just took a multichannel sequencer and wrote "VELOCITY" in black sharpie on the 2nd channel output, would that suffice?
Miley Cyrus
Vanden92
DJMaytag wrote:
falseeye wrote:
I see alot of people kinda critical of this question of wether to have velocity in a eurorack sequencer . of course in theory you can make anything happen in eurorack including a little velocity like effects to your sequence but im afraid alot of you are being a little bit of modular snobs imo . hes got a point about velocity in eurorack that you dont see much of it . Why not? I know on the DFAM it has it built into the sequencer and i love it , it imo actually makes the module much more usefull than if it didnt , and in retrospect if i hadnt had the dfam to try velocity with my eurorack i probably wouldnt know what i was missing

I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018. I get that extra hardware outputs = added cost (not sure if added the feature in firmware costs much more), so at least figure out a way to put a header or two on the main sequencer module so extra outputs can be added later.

Eloquencer's screen seems like a PERFECT setup for selecting one of its tracks, and then hitting alternate view to show 16 columns of velocity/mod for each track. They've mentioned that such an extra output for velocity/mod would be possible, but nothing as far as how that would work in their software.


But you would still require an additional VCA for this velocity to have any effect on the amplitude.
BaloErets
DJMaytag wrote:
I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018.


I think the point is that velocity is just a stepped voltage which exists all over the place in a system. The only time that you are going to see that option is for sequencers that have some sort of MIDI conversion built into them (Hermod for example). I find the idea is like saying "In 2018, how come there are no filter frequency outputs in sequencers".

Everything is voltage. A voltage goes from it's current value to a higher value, from it's current value to a lower value, or stays at it's current value. That and how it transitions (exponentially, linearly, stepped, logarithmic, 1v/Oct) is pretty much all that every single module is existence does at it's output.
DonaldCrunk
the more concerning thing to me about this poll - either 18 out of 41 people have a misunderstanding about the fundamentals of modular patching, or they've discovered something awesome about Eurorack that I don't know and would love to learn!
bedhed3000
The issue here just a matter of nomenclature. The OP wants "velocity", but what he actually needs is an extra CV output per channel. This list proves that there are lots of sequqncers that have this: http://doudoroff.com/sequencers/

Or you can just have more than one sequencer - one for your main CV/gate patterns and the other for sequencing amplitude changes. I dedicate a few channels of Voltage Block for this usually, but any tiny CV sequencer will work - like the Transient Modules 8S.

Another general issue is that people seem to want gigantic modules that perform way too many (IMHO) functions, essentially acting like a part of a DAW.
organon
This seems like a semantical question. Velocity is a concept that comes from the world of keyboard playing and as such it has no meaning in the modular world, which is sequencer and modulation based. You can use CVs for whatever you like, if you use them for amplitude control you are free to call them “velocity CV” if it makes you happy. Me for my part, I don’t need this classification and I don’t need manufacturers to tell me what to use a CV output for.

If you are simply trying to say sequencers should have more CV outputs, I’m totally with you. More is always better. That opinion is pretty commonplace and hardly worth starting a debate over. But more CV outs also means more money and more complex interface.
Yes Powder
BaloErets wrote:
I think the point is that velocity is just a stepped voltage which exists all over the place in a system. The only time that you are going to see that option is for sequencers that have some sort of MIDI conversion built into them (Hermod for example). I find the idea is like saying "In 2018, how come there are no filter frequency outputs in sequencers".

Everything is voltage. A voltage goes from it's current value to a higher value, from it's current value to a lower value, or stays at it's current value. That and how it transitions (exponentially, linearly, stepped, logarithmic, 1v/Oct) is pretty much all that every single module is existence does at it's output.


Nailed it. MY ASS IS BLEEDING
DJMaytag
Vanden92 wrote:
But you would still require an additional VCA for this velocity to have any effect on the amplitude.

You could use velocity for anything, but usually yes, you’d need a second VCA for volume modulation. I have a pair of Manhattan Analog VCA’s I’ve built for my main synth voice, dedicated for volume & velocity. Sometimes I route the velocity voltage through a matrix mixer to filter cutoff, sometimes instead of and sometimes in addition to volume.

Fine, let’s call it “mod” then instead of velocity... whatever you want to call it though... it’s just surprising to me that modern sequencers don’t have at least a third output per track for whatever bi-polar or unipolar modulation you’d like to have in your performance.
pzoot
Sequencers don’t really “send” velocity, they record it, and then convert the speed at which you press a button into a CV signal (or it’s difital equivalent). Then the sequencer sends the CV signal to control volume. I agree that not many Euro modules record velocity and convert it into CV. But given the OP mentioned the number of outputs, I’m guessing they were really referring to using one module to send multiple CV sequences to control not just pitch but also volume?

I guess I tend to agree that has value since I use a Polyend Poly. But there are many, many modules out there (from Hermod using multiple tracks, to voltage block, to Rene) that can provide a sequenced “volume cv” signal from the same module that sends the pitch cv and gate. But they don’t generally record that cv sequence based on button press speed
jakobprogsch
So this is essentially just asking for a different distribution of gate and CV outputs. 2:1 instead of 1:1. As someone who occasionally thinks about building my own sequencer I see how you would always arrive at 1:1 though.

The main "cost" of adding a second CV channel to a sequence is all the pots and routing you need. But when you already have that then making that extra channel independent is relatively cheap again (a couple pins from your microcontroller to a multiplexer instead of sharing them). Adding a gate output for that second channel is even cheaper (literally one pin out of your microcontroller and one jack + a buffer). Essentially, if you are already adding more CV channels the cost of also adding the gate channels for them is trivial. To end up with more CV channels than gate channels you'd have to intentionally omit the gate channels...

Something similar even applies to fully digital sequencers. You are probably running out of DACs (CV) before you run out of logic pins (gate). So there is almost never a reason to NOT have at least one gate channel per CV channel.
Kodama
The velocity on some devices (Beat Step Pro) are wayyyyy too sensitive and can't be properly adjusted. Of course we also will want a mod wheel CV out and pressure, and why not poly pressure while we're at it! razz
0BSRVR
Pittsburgh midi3 has had it for some time now.
hawkfuzz
Everything is voltage.

A lot of people have problems going from a DAW environment, with everything present and available to a "less efficient" system of creating music.

There are sequencers that have "mod" out. It's not really necessary for all of them to have it, because not everyone thinks you need everything on every module. When there's a lot of extra features, something else is compromised like price or size or even build. The Intellijel has only 8 steps and is one of the most used sequencers.

You have to bend to the limitations instead of forcing it to be a DAW.
brandonlogic
DJMaytag wrote:


Fine, let’s call it “mod” then instead of velocity... whatever you want to call it though... it’s just surprising to me that modern sequencers don’t have at least a third output per track


have you looked at the FLXS1 and NERDSEQ?
justin3am
There are quite a few euro sequencers which have auxiliary CV outputs which can be used for 'Velocity' or what ever you would like. Also, most MIDI>CV converters have a Velocity output.

I really like Audio Damage's Seq1. It has three CV outputs which are assignable and can be used for velocity, step modulation or LFOs.

Five12's upcoming Vector sequencer will have velocity outputs which also sound like they are assignable.

The sequencers mentioned in the OP seem to be the type which are geared toward having multiple tracks and as many 1v/Oct and Gate pairs as possible. I think those products fit a niche.

I personally like to have as many CV outputs per track as possible. For that reason, I use a Seq1, Brains/Pressure Points combo x2, Voltage Block, a Beatstep Pro, a Mutant Brain MIDI>CV converter and I pre-ordered a Vector.
nostalghia
DJMaytag wrote:
it’s just surprising to me that modern sequencers don’t have at least a third output per track for whatever bi-polar or unipolar modulation you’d like to have in your performance.


A. Did you look at the list linked in the post from bedhed3000? "This list proves that there are lots of sequqncers that have this: http://doudoroff.com/sequencers/ "
Many sequencers listed have a "Mod" or "Aux" CV track/output in addition to one or more main CV outs.

B. Any sequencer with >1 CV output will work, as others have also been trying to tell you-and there are multiple examples to choose from. A variable voltage per step linked to a common clock will work just as well for controlling amplitude, VCF cutoff, etc. as it will for note pitch-just may need to do some experimenting to find what "note" to program into a spare "pitch" track to get the change in volume you want on that step.

C. Have you looked at the Arturia Keystep? Small MIDI/CV controller keyboard ($100 or so), not a module (so it wouldn't take up space in your case), but has a nifty 64 step sequencer and 3 outputs that work well with modulars-CV (pitch), Gate and Modulation-which can be assigned to keyboard velocity via software app. Hit a key harder when recording a sequence in realtime into one of the memory slots, and you get a correspondingly higher voltage out of the Mod out on that step. Patch that to your second VCA CV in and you've got sequence with velocity expression. I have the AD Seq1, Metropolis, Tirana and PP/Brains, but sometimes still pull out the Keystep instead because it's so immediate and fun to use for simple bass lines or melodies.

Edit-others have made these same points already in the time it took me to write and post this while also answering emails at work. Hope it's not coming off as a "pile on"-sorry, not my intent. I understand that everyone here may be coming from different perspectives, or types of past experience and habits with the particular kind of gear they are used to using.
Rigo
pzoot wrote:
Sequencers don’t really “send” velocity, they record it

Can I disagree ? None of my Eurorack sequencers can record anything ...
bedhed3000
Rigo wrote:
pzoot wrote:
Sequencers don’t really “send” velocity, they record it

Can I disagree ? None of my Eurorack sequencers can record anything ...


You missed this part:
pzoot wrote:
I agree that not many Euro modules record velocity and convert it into CV


Someone else mentioned Keystep Pro. Not eurorack, but it sounds like that is what is going on. I think his point is that there needs to be some sort of physical input being recorded by the sequencer, then translated to a CV or MIDI value for it to be really considered velocity. A piano roll in a DAW would have a separate sequencer lane to store that physical input (i.e. touch sensitive keyboard), or allow the user to program it using a mouse.

In my opinion, if you want this functionality, use a DAW or a keystep and save some money and headache. But then again, this entire thread is the result of a semantic confusion/disagreement so whatevers.
timoka
i always thought and still think that it would be really useful if a dynamic message would be transported through gate or trigger voltage, meaning making these binary messages a bit more "informative" and of course having more "intelligent" modules on the receiving end, so for example an envelope generator with variable voltage out depending on the gate/trigger voltage in, more vca's in everything! maybe that's not modular thinking because one can patch that without problem, but i still think gates and triggers are kinda "dumb"...
hw408
Interesting idea someone mentioned using two vcas to do "velocity" behavior. Made me think.

What comes to mind about velocity while thinking in x0x drum machine mode, is having one knob affect "accent" across multiple drum voices. Maybe mult one sequencer "accent" track into multiple drum modules accents, or through a vca first? It took some playing to figure out how tiptip drums actually behave in response to accent cv. Then i decide for drums maybe this is where just using the drum machine is simpler.

beatstep is a pain to try to use the velocity outputs, seems the range is always weird depending on what is receiving them, and then to go inspect and change every step's value sucks. If there was a global amount control to offset all those steps velocities proportionally, that would be awesome.
DJMaytag
bedhed3000 wrote:
But then again, this entire thread is the result of a semantic confusion/disagreement so whatevers.

Holy hell yes, I can't believe how convoluted this whole thing has gotten.

I think that, based on the link shared above, the question should have been "Is it too much to ask for more than 1 CV and 1 gate per track on a multitrack sequencer?"

I only see a few options that fulfill the main requirement of 2 CV's per track, (without having to sacrifice tracks), on a multitrack sequencer:

ER-101 (requires an external clock source?)
Nerdseq
FLXS1

I honestly don't know much about any of these three, so... research time.
euromorcego
DJMaytag wrote:

I think that, based on the link shared above, the question should have been "Is it too much to ask for more than 1 CV and 1 gate per track on a multitrack sequencer?"

I only see a few options that fulfill the main requirement of 2 CV's per track, (without having to sacrifice tracks), on a multitrack sequencer:

weird discussion. But at the risk of adding more confusion: I think you are entirely mistaken about the "having to sacrifice tracks".

If you want one cv output (pitch) then you need one track. If you need another cv output (velocity or whatever) you need another track. I fail to see how this "sacrifices" anything.

On the contrary, if there are two cv outputs and just one gate, it precludes that anyone uses this cv output as another pitch/gate track. So why not add another gate (gate outs are much simpler to add than DA converter with good resolution).

For example the Hermod (as flawed as it may be) lets you choose if you use 2 cv outs for pitch and velocity, or just one cv/gate pair (and you can still use the unused gate output for something else). It is just your perception that this "sacrifices" tracks ... the alternative would be that you still need 2 tracks to store/edit the two cv values (you just call it "one track"), you still need two DA converter for CV. So, given the same components and costs, it would be a four track sequencer instead of eight ... what is the advantage?

You may say that you want the extra cv outputs in addition. ok, I agree, more is always more ... but it also costs more. So then it would be better to add another set of (rather simple to implement) gates to add flexibility, and you are back to square one and complain again. seriously, i just don't get it
coolshirtdotjpg
starthief wrote:
Dcramer wrote:
Funny story; I have a Qunexus which I bought as a keyboard and as an interface.
Problem is there’s always been a bug in it that makes the velocity CV output always output the same high voltage making it useless!
And if you contact KMI service, even though they’ve never fixed the bug, they pretend like there is no bug, because they’ve all forgotten about it! very frustrating


I had similar trouble with a KMI K-Board, before it died completely. I never really liked the feel of it or felt like the pitch bending stuff was controllable at all, either.


Anyway, I have my CV.OCD configured for 3 voices rather than 4, with the first one having both CV and velocity... and I find I rarely patch the velocity.

But when I sequence with Mimetic Digitalis or a matrix mixer/gates combination, I often dedicate one or more CV channels to something other than pitch.


Did you send the k-board back? I used to work there and in my experience returns were always accepted, I would sometimes do repairs on parts tolerance with qunexus units when that was an issue. I have not been affiliated with them for 4 years and have no idea how things are now, but there are a lot of good people there who can fix you up, for free.
coolshirtdotjpg
DJMaytag wrote:
bedhed3000 wrote:
But then again, this entire thread is the result of a semantic confusion/disagreement so whatevers.

Holy hell yes, I can't believe how convoluted this whole thing has gotten.

I think that, based on the link shared above, the question should have been "Is it too much to ask for more than 1 CV and 1 gate per track on a multitrack sequencer?"

I only see a few options that fulfill the main requirement of 2 CV's per track, (without having to sacrifice tracks), on a multitrack sequencer:

ER-101 (requires an external clock source?)
Nerdseq
FLXS1

I honestly don't know much about any of these three, so... research time.


Does varigate 8+ and voltage block count?
DJMaytag
Is my Keystep a 3 track keyboard? Is a KB37 a 5 track keyboard?

A “track” should encompass some basic performance capabilities available on keyboards, and while I think that a voltage that serves the purpose of a velocity control should be part of anything called a “track” on a multitrack sequencer. Others might disagree and say that vibrato, aftertouch, or pitchbend should be more important than velocity. The ability to configure such a mod output is why I think the Keystep is such a hit, and why the KB37 is $800+, sans any modules in it (gotta say that having velocity, aftertouch, AND vibrato available was pretty damn nice when I got to borrow one for a few days).
kwaidan
The Doepfer low-cost A-132 VCA is good for controlling the level of an envelope with velocity. There are actually two CV inputs, so you can add aftertouch, etc.

starthief
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Did you send the k-board back?...


It was... 3 years ago maybe? I think I just wrote it off because I didn't really like it that much anyway; I was willing to live with it while it (sort of) worked but was also kind of relieved to move on to something else.

(As it turned out, that "something else" was a Microbrute, which eventually was my gateway into Eurorack, so, a win there overall.)
luketeaford
timoka wrote:
i always thought and still think that it would be really useful if a dynamic message would be transported through gate or trigger voltage, meaning making these binary messages a bit more "informative"


I think what you're describing is a S&H not a VCA. thumbs up
luketeaford
DJMaytag wrote:
"Is it too much to ask for more than 1 CV and 1 gate per track on a multitrack sequencer?"


I think the question should be "what is a multitrack sequencer?" smile

Say you have a sequencer with 1 row of CV and one row of gate. The most obvious (but certainly not only approach) is to use CV for pitch and gate to trigger envelopes that open a VCA or whatever.

Now you add another row of CV. Cool, an obvious choice to you is to use that CV for velocity. I would probably prefer this row to control the clock to slow it down or speed it up and generate a rhythm that way. Someone else wants the third row of CV for setting wet/dry mix on some effect.

The moment we players start asking for predefined things, we start making things less modular. The Mother 32 sequencer has gate, accent (also a gate signal but expresses the "velocity" concept), and pitch.
DJMaytag
luketeaford wrote:
The moment we players start asking for predefined things, we start making things less modular. The Mother 32 sequencer has gate, accent (also a gate signal but expresses the "velocity" concept), and pitch.

As I’ve noted earlier, at least one configurable “mod” output would seem like something that should be a standard now. What that output does should be modular, but it seems a bit nuts to me that anyone would say “no, we don’t need another voltage output, we have enough... thanks!”
justin3am
luketeaford wrote:
timoka wrote:
i always thought and still think that it would be really useful if a dynamic message would be transported through gate or trigger voltage, meaning making these binary messages a bit more "informative"


I think what you're describing is a S&H not a VCA. thumbs up

There are envelopes which behave the way timoka described. For example if you use the Signal input on Maths, the amplitude of the Gate will determine the maximum amplitude of the envelope output. I think there are other envelopes which behave the same way.

I don't have a gate source which takes advantage of this feature but I could see it being useful, as it would reduce the number of necessary VCAs.
jakobprogsch
DJMaytag wrote:
...but it seems a bit nuts to me that anyone would say “no, we don’t need another voltage output, we have enough... thanks!”

Funny, if I saw something that had two cv channels but only one gate channel I'd think "those bastards saved the single jack they would have needed for the second gate channel!"
DJMaytag
jakobprogsch wrote:
Funny, if I saw something that had two cv channels but only one gate channel I'd think "those bastards saved the single jack they would have needed for the second gate channel!"

Why would you need a second gate channel? Use a mult if you you need to trigger more than one thing!
luketeaford
justin3am wrote:
There are envelopes which behave the way timoka described. For example if you use the Signal input on Maths, the amplitude of the Gate will determine the maximum amplitude of the envelope output.


Yes, good call, but there is a relationship with the ASR envelope that patch makes. I was intending to point out that a S&H is a good way to use a gate or trigger signal to derive a more interesting (stepped continuous) signal. You bring up another excellent point that why not expect every sequencer to give you gates AND triggers per step because sometimes you need to convert... smile
brandonlogic
DJMaytag wrote:
jakobprogsch wrote:
Funny, if I saw something that had two cv channels but only one gate channel I'd think "those bastards saved the single jack they would have needed for the second gate channel!"

Why would you need a second gate channel? Use a mult if you you need to trigger more than one thing!


Still waiting to hear what you think of the sequencers mentioned in this thread that DO have mod + cv + gate channels per channel you have not commented on them yet........ they do exist you know!!! I have two of them MY ASS IS BLEEDING

Miley Cyrus
luketeaford
DJMaytag wrote:
As I’ve noted earlier, at least one configurable “mod” output would seem like something that should be a standard now.


I am agreeing with you-- except that this is where choice and variety is how I like solving the problem. Rene has two channels but you have to lock one and you can't edit them simultaneously so the QCV output is just a fancy word for pitch.

The Verbos Voltage Multistage has two channels that are 0-10V and unquantized PLUS a gate output PLUS a falling ramp over the length of the stage PLUS individual gate outputs. None of it is "standard" and that's the great thing about it.

In another thread, you're asking why someone would need another channel of gate-- because just how you want a pitch channel and a mod channel, another player might want a pitch channel, a mod channel, a gate channel, and that second unrelated gate channel would be for some other thing.

The only way for everyone to be satisfied is to make a variety of sequencers with different characteristics for different players and sometimes to use multiple sequencers together.
DJMaytag
brandonlogic wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:
jakobprogsch wrote:
Funny, if I saw something that had two cv channels but only one gate channel I'd think "those bastards saved the single jack they would have needed for the second gate channel!"

Why would you need a second gate channel? Use a mult if you you need to trigger more than one thing!


Still waiting to hear what you think of the sequencers mentioned in this thread that DO have mod + cv + gate channels per channel you have not commented on them yet........ they do exist you know!!! I have two of them MY ASS IS BLEEDING

Miley Cyrus

I'll have to see how you use them the next MKE Synth Meetup, but I don't know much about either, TBH. The tracker thing might rule out the Nerdseq, as I've never used a Tracker program before... and I might just be too damn old to learn now. It looks interesting, but how close to a X0X style sequencer can it be?

I talked to Aaron from 1010 Music last year at Knobcon, and at the time their Toolbox module seemed a bit limited, i.e. "only 4 tracks," while the Eloquencer had just been released at at 8 tracks, seemed like some pretty hot shit.

They've developed the firmware/platform a great bit since then, it seems, with some flexibility I wasn't aware of when I started this thread. Yes, it's still limited to 16 outputs than can be configured in various ways, but the MIDI outputs can still be used to do a lot more. That's huge, and could lead to going MIDI out from the Toolbox to an Intellijel uMIDI or a Vermona qMI2 if more CV/gate/velocity control was needed.

Also FWIW, a Cirklon with a DMUX, CVIO, & BOB is probably the closest thing to the perfect sequencer for me, but... I'm still 6 months away from my name coming up on the list and the price for just the base model is a whole lot of 's.
Stereotactixxx
I must admit I voted NO before I read the OP and realized that this isn't about MIDI/CV interfaces. very frustrating

Now I am more like "Dude, just use another row on your sequencer, and if that row has associated triggers/gates, use them as accents".
chrisso
Funny how the thread centered on sequencers. When I saw the thread title I was thinking, yeah velocity IS undervalued in Eurorack.
I use cv to control velocity using a VCA all the time, but I have to say it's often a fiddly business. It seems to me like some VCAs have too broad a range of voltage scaling. In other words, it's hard to dial in subtle changes in velocity on most of my VCAs, they tend to jump around from very quiet to very loud, or when dialled down, any velocity change is so slight as to be inaudible.
The best velocity response I've heard recently is from DFAM. It really seems responsive.

So in short, my point would be - yes, it would be great if more modules, especially percussive modules, had a velocity input (cv voltage). Especially as velocity effects timbre as well as volume.
Setting up a variety of percussive modules to respond to voltage in terms of volume and timbre is not that straightforward and often doesn't produce as smooth a result as I'm hoping for.
In answer to 99% of the posts in this thread - yeah, I use a second or third voltage to control volume (velocity) all the time in my patches.
Shledge
Can easily use another channel for velocity. It spits out voltage at the end of the day, so it really doesn't matter if it's not dedicated.
Hirsbro
In my world velocity is a keyboard feature used to express something of your choice based on how hard you hit a key, as you don't "hit" keys or pads on most eurorack sequencers I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression meh
chrisso
Hirsbro wrote:
I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression meh


Velocity adds life to any part, especially percussive parts.
Your definition of keyboard feature is only half of the story. Velocity is actually a feature of real instruments as it's impossible for a human to play every note at exactly the same velocity, therefore giving the performed passage some life.
It's not a 'must have' for me, but I do think a velocity input on some modules, especially percussive ones, would be a plus.
Hirsbro
chrisso wrote:
Hirsbro wrote:
I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression meh


Velocity adds life to any part, especially percussive parts.
Your definition of keyboard feature is only half of the story. Velocity is actually a feature of real instruments as it's impossible for a human to play every note at exactly the same velocity, therefore giving the performed passage some life.
It's not a 'must have' for me, but I do think a velocity input on some modules, especially percussive ones, would be a plus.


My point was that you dont punch or press something therefor no reason to call it velocity, and as i said "in my world" ppl apparently just want a CV out labeled "velocity" maybe because they are comfortable with that term...
flashheart
One of the smaller Eurorack makers proposed using varying trigger / gate levels to transmit dynamic information. Pretty sure mine was the only reply to the post. seriously, i just don't get it

Yes we can tie up multiple sequencers and do really clever stuff driving multiple CVs, but what's wrong with an additional simple solution that actually transmits some extra information? If you don't want to use it ignore it. People sometimes seem to want to jump through hoops to achieve dynamics.

Any module that accepts triggers / gates SHOULD respond to anything over say 1.5v (ie. use a comparator on the input). Most slope generator type modules (Maths, Function etc) can respond to varying gate levels. What's wrong with a bit of extra control?
organon
flashheart wrote:

Any module that accepts triggers / gates SHOULD respond to anything over say 1.5v (ie. use a comparator on the input). Most slope generator type modules (Maths, Function etc) can respond to varying gate levels. What's wrong with a bit of extra control?


I think if manufacturers started doing that the result would be endless complications and incompatibilities. There's already modules that have difficulties accepting gates or triggers from certain others because of wrong levels.
gonkulator
Hirsbro wrote:
chrisso wrote:
Hirsbro wrote:
I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression meh


Velocity adds life to any part, especially percussive parts.
Your definition of keyboard feature is only half of the story. Velocity is actually a feature of real instruments as it's impossible for a human to play every note at exactly the same velocity, therefore giving the performed passage some life.
It's not a 'must have' for me, but I do think a velocity input on some modules, especially percussive ones, would be a plus.


My point was that you dont punch or press something therefor no reason to call it velocity, and as i said "in my world" ppl apparently just want a CV out labeled "velocity" maybe because they are comfortable with that term...


Yes, Velocity is only relevant within a patch or system that has defined connections from the input (typically keyboard that transmits the velocity data) to a destination or destinations that are set up to interpret it. In any integrated synth, there is no strict definition as to what destinations velocity affects. It could be just volume, or volume and filter cutoff, etc. A modular patch should be able to accommodate whatever parameters per note/hit are desired, with the added benefit of being able to define these in pretty much any way you want. Even if I connect a velocity-transmitting keyboard to my modular system, I would still have to define (and connect to) the destinations of that data, which can be whatever I want.

No one is saying that varying any number of parameters within a sequence shouldn't be considered. It is just that there is no way to predefine this within a truly modular system.
WaveRider
DJMaytag wrote:
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches?



especially for drums!!!!! without at least an accent level drum are lifeless.
kwaidan
WaveRider wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches?



especially for drums!!!!! without at least an accent level drum are lifeless.


Acidlab drum modules are sensitive to trigger voltage level. According to the manual, the Gate In is “`sensitive` and affects the sound. The higher the pulse (+5V to +12V) at the Gate In the more attack and louder the sound gets.”
arfo
Perhaps some of the confusion stems from the use of the word velocity.

The word itself simply means speed and it was used in the MIDI protocol as a stand in for how strongly a key was pressed in a MIDI keyboard - and it could be recorded in a MIDI sequencer (or not).
The fact that this was (practically always) assigned to volume in a sound seems to have made it synonymous with how loud a note sounds, at least for some people. Perhaps this is understandable, since the word sequencer itself can refer to two things that I think are quite different from one another: analog sequencers vs MIDI (& DAW) sequencers.

When I read the thread title, I expected to read about controllers (keyboard and otherwise) and MIDI/CV interfaces.

Otherwise, I think we're simply talking about extra rows of CV on analogue sequencers - and some of the oldest ones in Eurorack (like the doepfer a155) have had them.
pzoot
Poster #1: “I think Eurorack sequencers should be able to record MIDI Velocity messages from my MIDI controller and convert the 1-127 into 0-5V CV signals”

Poster #2: “That’s ridiculous, why would you want more CV outputs per track in your sequencer. You can use the sliders on your Voltage Block to record a CV track to control amplitude, ahem, I mean velocity”

Poster #3: “Yeah totally. Poster #1 is obviously not a real Eurorack person. Otherwise, they would know that you can make things softer or louder by patching any old sequence and an audio source into a VCA”

Poster #4: “No, I agree with Poster #1. Drum modules should always have built in VCAs with a CV input labeled Velocity”

Poster #5: “I use a DSI Pro 2 and it does ALL of this. It has a keyboard, a sequencer that records MIDI velocity, I can route that to a CV output, which I route back into the machine via a CV input and map that via the modulation matrix to control the volume of Osc 1. I don’t know why you guys keep throwing away your money on Eurorack”

Poster #3: “Because my modular can do everything the Pro 2 can do, and more, and with total flexibility”

Poster #5: “Can it record velocity?”
synkrotron
I think the poll should have had a "not that bothered" option.
chrisso
Hirsbro wrote:


My point was that you dont punch or press something therefor no reason to call it velocity,


We're talking about music here, and velocity has become a musically useful term.
It seems highly pedantic to suggest you can't have an element of velocity on a percussive module, unless it's being programmed by a midi keyboard.
Yes Powder
chrisso wrote:
We're talking about music here, and velocity has become a musically useful term.
It seems highly pedantic to suggest you can't have an element of velocity on a percussive module, unless it's being programmed by a midi keyboard.


The whole point the anti-velocity crowd is trying to make is that you don't need an input or output labeled "VELOCITY" to get velocity-like effects on a modular. It can be done with a little bit of patching of a couple functions that any well-balanced system should have plenty to spare.
(BIG HINT: srsly never )
At the risk of stoking these flames further, I'd argue that anyone can't figure out at least one way to do so would probably be better off with a Nord Lead and DrumBrute.
Peter Grenader </controversial statement>
lisa
Also, an output labeled ”velocity” would be nonsensical since it would output CV that could be used for anything in a modular enviroment. There is no such thing as velocity specific CV.
Shledge
^ This. Often handy for changing filter cutoff, VCA levels of modulations etc.
euromorcego
Yes Powder wrote:

The whole point the anti-velocity crowd is trying to make is that you don't need an input or output labeled "VELOCITY" to get velocity-like effects on a modular. ....

indeed!

And the 2nd point is: many (more complex) sequencer and (almost all) midi-cv interfaces actually DO HAVE a cv out for velocity.

Typically these cv interfaces or sequencer (such as MI Yarns, Hermod and others) let you decide if you want to use a channel/track with several cv outs or not. For example with Yarns you can have 4 cv outs per channel (pitch, velocity, modulation, assign). Same with Hermod.

But people can also choose to use the 4 cv outputs as individual pitch cv outputs if they so want.

And this was what the OP started whining about. He said all pitch cv out MUST be accompanied with a velocity out. A velocity output that must not be used as a picth cv out by other people ever ... because compared to these people he would then "sacrifice" a channel (hey, these people have 4 channels in Yarns, and I can only use 2 with velocity, so they should not be allowed to do this).

Bottom line: the problem of the OP does not exist. There are plenty of cv interfaces and sequencer that let you assign a velocity output. Of course, this requires more cv outs that otherwise could be used for pitch cv. But so what? It simply gives people a choice. To then complain about "sacrificing" channels is nonsense.
chrisso
Yes Powder wrote:

The whole point the anti-velocity crowd is trying to make is that you don't need an input or output labeled "VELOCITY" to get velocity-like effects on a modular. It can be done with a little bit of patching of a couple functions that any well-balanced system should have plenty to spare.
(BIG HINT: srsly never )


Yes, I already agreed with that.
However my point is two fold.
I find a lot of VCAs are difficult to fine tune. The resultant volume changes are too big, going from inaudible to loud. Or the volume changes are too subtle, meaning you can't hear any velocity change in a mix with other parts playing.
I have worked on this for years, with various different VCAs, using sequencer voltage outputs, or separate voltages from Expert Sleepers etc, with attenuators etc, etc..

My second point is, as velocity effects both volume and timbre, it is more painstaking to patch. No need for "hint VCA'.
Therefore, especially in drum modules, it would be a NICE feature, not talking 'essential' here, but 'nice', if there was a velocity INPUT that had some effect on volume AND timbre.
chrisso
lisa wrote:
Also, an output labeled ”velocity” would be nonsensical


What about an input, especially (probably exclusively) on modules with internal VCAs, or percussive focused modules.
The 'velocity' aspect of DFAM is some of the best I've heard in modular.
You actually don't often hear variable velocity in modular patches, probably because it is hard to accurately dial in.
lisa
chrisso It sounds like you have experience with VCAs with exponential response curves. They will sort of go from nothing to max (not really but, you know). Linear VCAs will do what you want.
chrisso
Oh OK, probably right. Many of my VCAs are unmarked as to what they are )(exp/lin). I will have to check, or see if I need yet another VCA.
hihi
Thanks
euromorcego
chrisso wrote:

My second point is, as velocity effects both volume and timbre, it is more painstaking to patch. No need for "hint VCA'.
Therefore, especially in drum modules, it would be a NICE feature, not talking 'essential' here, but 'nice', if there was a velocity INPUT that had some effect on volume AND timbre.

this is also true in conventional synths. "Velocity" (as played on a keyboard) may affect many aspects of a sounds, decay, brightness (filter)., etc .... not just amplitude.

So in a drum modules it would be a quite complex parameter, and the question is if people would want such an overall "fixed architecture" parameter (rather than e.g. patching decay and filter individually). Of course, it would make things easier (but only if you are looking for exactly that kind of "fixed architecture" parameter). Then we are back: what is a modular synth good for?

Many drummodules actually have a kind of dynamics control, such as accent or choke or strike. Some even respond to the amplitude of the trigger.
Hirsbro
chrisso wrote:
Hirsbro wrote:


My point was that you dont punch or press something therefor no reason to call it velocity,


We're talking about music here, and velocity has become a musically useful term.
It seems highly pedantic to suggest you can't have an element of velocity on a percussive module, unless it's being programmed by a midi keyboard.


who says you cant? not me.
chrisso
euromorcego wrote:

Many drummodules actually have a kind of dynamics control, such as accent or choke or strike. Some even respond to the amplitude of the trigger.


I have had quite a few and still have many. Not many have that 'dynamics control' IMO. That's all I suggested.
It's a great feature when they do.
WaveRider
kwaidan wrote:
WaveRider wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches?



especially for drums!!!!! without at least an accent level drum are lifeless.


Acidlab drum modules are sensitive to trigger voltage level. According to the manual, the Gate In is “`sensitive` and affects the sound. The higher the pulse (+5V to +12V) at the Gate In the more attack and louder the sound gets.”


yes tip top modules too have accent level, but we are talking about sequencers not having that cv out that can be used as a velocity or loudness parameter
evs
The fast answer to the question“is it too much to ask for...“ is „yes“.
It’s too much to ask for, and does not make sense in the modular world.
The reasons have been given enough here.

I would not like the manufacturer to make thought about how we should use the cv outs. That would be definitely a sequencer I would not buy.
brandonlogic
The only way I see it making sense, would be if there was a sequencer with velocity sensitive MPC like pads and you could tap in and record your sequences, which actually would be pretty cool!
evs
chrisso wrote:
Yes Powder wrote:

The whole point the anti-velocity crowd is trying to make is that you don't need an input or output labeled "VELOCITY" to get velocity-like effects on a modular. It can be done with a little bit of patching of a couple functions that any well-balanced system should have plenty to spare.
(BIG HINT: srsly never )


Yes, I already agreed with that.
However my point is two fold.
I find a lot of VCAs are difficult to fine tune. The resultant volume changes are too big, going from inaudible to loud. Or the volume changes are too subtle, meaning you can't hear any velocity change in a mix with other parts playing.
I have worked on this for years, with various different VCAs, using sequencer voltage outputs, or separate voltages from Expert Sleepers etc, with attenuators etc, etc..

My second point is, as velocity effects both volume and timbre, it is more painstaking to patch. No need for "hint VCA'.
Therefore, especially in drum modules, it would be a NICE feature, not talking 'essential' here, but 'nice', if there was a velocity INPUT that had some effect on volume AND timbre.


To point one: that’s strange. Maybe you have the wrong vcas... it should be simple to tweak, for example, a uvca to your liking. Not possible to be difficult to tune, as long as you know what you are doing..

To point 2: patch the timbre you want. A multiple or stackable is your friend here. One cable goes to your vca, the other to the timbre you want, or to the other vca Controlling the timbre you want... it’s not painstaking, it’s what it’s all about in modular....
synkrotron
chrisso wrote:

We're talking about music here.


Music? Where? Mr. Green
synkrotron
BSP has CV out labeled "velocity" but, yeah, it's just a label and I use it for all manner of shenanigans.
geetee
ER-101
Yes Powder
chrisso wrote:
Yes, I already agreed with that.
However my point is two fold.
I find a lot of VCAs are difficult to fine tune. The resultant volume changes are too big, going from inaudible to loud. Or the volume changes are too subtle, meaning you can't hear any velocity change in a mix with other parts playing.
I have worked on this for years, with various different VCAs, using sequencer voltage outputs, or separate voltages from Expert Sleepers etc, with attenuators etc, etc..

Have you played around with log/exp scaling? Adjusting the shape of the curve and adding a little offset could be what you’re looking for.
EDIT: I see that Lisa already covered this. Sorry, posted this just as I woke up.

Quote:
My second point is, as velocity effects both volume and timbre, it is more painstaking to patch. No need for "hint VCA'.
Therefore, especially in drum modules, it would be a NICE feature, not talking 'essential' here, but 'nice', if there was a velocity INPUT that had some effect on volume AND timbre.

I guess we’re in disagreement here. I’m not interested in paying extra for a module that has a dedicated input for something I’d just do otherwise with a couple utilities I already have and a stackable.
EDIT 2: EVS covered this too.
thee ghost ov n_phay
"dynamics" might be a better term than "velocity". Totally agree w the OP and also w chrisso. This is why I bought a Vermona QMI (4 channels EACH w note CV, gate and 2 x programmable CV outs) for my midi/cv interface and a BSP for my programmable pattern sequencer over other similar products. It does my nut in when I see a programmable pattern/chain sequencer where each channel only has a single CV and gate output.
dbeats
I usually also want to sequence more signals per instrument than just one gate and one cv. But it is rarely "velocity". It starts with drum module accents and ends up with voltage blocking each cv in on my BIA, Manis, Plonk and Entity percussion.
kwaidan
WaveRider wrote:
kwaidan wrote:
WaveRider wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:
Am I one of the few who are actively using velocity mod in their patches?



especially for drums!!!!! without at least an accent level drum are lifeless.


Acidlab drum modules are sensitive to trigger voltage level. According to the manual, the Gate In is “`sensitive` and affects the sound. The higher the pulse (+5V to +12V) at the Gate In the more attack and louder the sound gets.”


yes tip top modules too have accent level, but we are talking about sequencers not having that cv out that can be used as a velocity or loudness parameter


Indirectly, I was making the argument that there are drum modules available that would benefit from a sequencer with velocity.

With Acidlab, a drum module will sound louder if you send it 7V versus 5V, and 12V will sound louder than 7V or 8V. In contrast, TipTop modules only have two fixed volume levels, normal and accent.

The Jomox ModBase 09 also has a velocity sensitive trigger input that can be used, for example, with a Piezo mic.

Of course, this feature would be better paired with drum pads. Hypothetically, however, a sequencer could be developed with user-definable random function attached to each drum channel.
metasonix
DJMaytag wrote:
I love what some newer sequencers are doing, but I'm on a rant right now because there's pretty much only CV/gate outputs on the most interesting sequencers out right now (Eloquencer, Hermod, Toolbox). As much as I want to sequence right in my rack, it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

BUY TWO AND SYNC THEM. razz
WaveRider
kwaidan wrote:
In contrast, TipTop modules only have two fixed volume levels, normal and accent.



no the accent CV in TT mmodules is continuously variable, higher voltage, louder sounds.
kwaidan
WaveRider wrote:
kwaidan wrote:
In contrast, TipTop modules only have two fixed volume levels, normal and accent.



no the accent CV in TT mmodules is continuously variable, higher voltage, louder sounds.


So accent is variable on a TT module; however, that input, if I am correct, will only raises the volume level from a certain base level. I only have one TT module, but I’ll play around with it.

With an Acidlab module, you can vary volume level with one cv input, and basically, go from inaudible to pounding.
hyena
Vanden92 wrote:
DJMaytag wrote:
...
I don't know about the whole snobs part, but I just don't see why any modular sequencer should be limited to just just CV/gate in 2018. I get that extra hardware outputs = added cost (not sure if added the feature in firmware costs much more), so at least figure out a way to put a header or two on the main sequencer module so extra outputs can be added later.

...


But you would still require an additional VCA for this velocity to have any effect on the amplitude.


this! as a lot of us already stated, velocity is a MIDI convention, not a "musical" convention and absolutely not a measure of anything in sound theory (and practice). in the acoustic world we have variable amplitude of signals. in the modular world we have variable voltages. in the MIDI world you mimic the strength with which you strike a key on a piano with an arbitrary parameter called "velocity" (128 values).
saying that not having velocity on modular sequencers is a shame is like turning the flexible multifaceted environment of modular synths into a bidimensional world.
and it's also not so simple. you either have 2xVCA's everytime you want to control the amplitude of a signal OR you have to revolutionize the whole system by turning GATE\TRIGGER signals into variable amplitude signals and then ditch all your function\envelope generators if they don't react to GATE signals amplitude...
when all you have to do is think in the modular terms (which are a representation of the acoustic reality, in a way) and don't insist in thinking DAW or oldschool midi studio way. you need that kind of info? well, use a different sequencer track for that and add a VCA. i sometimes use velocity from a midi-cv module, the vca matrix is a very good solution for quick control of a vca thru another vca, for example.
Multi Grooves
chrisso wrote:
Hirsbro wrote:
I don't see how "velocity" is relevant since you have other means of expression meh


Velocity adds life to any part, especially percussive parts.
Your definition of keyboard feature is only half of the story. Velocity is actually a feature of real instruments as it's impossible for a human to play every note at exactly the same velocity, therefore giving the performed passage some life.
It's not a 'must have' for me, but I do think a velocity input on some modules, especially percussive ones, would be a plus.



SSF Entity, Hexinverter Mutant Machine off the top of my head. EDIT scratch that I think the SSF has ducking (I'm not in front of it).
pzoot
This thread should be a sticky. Could be really helpful for newcomers so they can get a sense about how quickly the forum can shift from being about people with knowledge trying to successfully communicate their thoughts to others, to just being about ego-driven pontificating (as evidenced by people at this point knowingly using a word that has 17 definitions without even trying to identify which one they’re talking about). The velocity (pun intended) at which this particular thread grew speaks volumes about the insatiable demand for an outlet for that behavior
hawkfuzz
You talking about "velocity"? I thought OP made it clear which velocity they were speaking of and everyone else is responding to that definition, or am I missing something?

Good pun btw.
helix
I totally agree. Why could a sequencer not have a per step "velocity amount" that is sent out as a separate CV from 0-5V? Or even invert-able. This could be used to send to a filter cutoff's secondary CV input to get things moving and not have to use a second sequencer or some such for the same effect
lisa
pzoot What are you on (about)?

There is a bit of bad tone, probably due to the what year it is-argument and the imposement of MIDI/ITB limited thinking on modular gear. However, this thread is also full of efforts to explain and further the subject.
euromorcego
helix wrote:
I totally agree. Why could a sequencer not have a per step "velocity amount" that is sent out as a separate CV from 0-5V? Or even invert-able.

aaaaaaaaaahhhhh .... at the risk of being redundant: quite a few sequencer already do this, obviously only those with several tracks/multiple cv outs. For example in Hermod you can assign "velocity" to any cv output (and you can anyway use any cv output to modulate anything you like).

The OP specifically complained that such cv outputs must not be assignable. Currently people have a choice: use a cv out it as another pitch cv (= another track), or have a single track using two cv outs. The OP requests that we all must use the latter and we should not have a choice.
pzoot
hawkfuzz wrote:
You talking about "velocity"? I thought OP made it clear which velocity they were speaking of and everyone else is responding to that definition, or am I missing something?


I'm not just picking on the OP. But, his attempt to clarify mid-way through didn't really slow anything down.

Here are various uses of the word “velocity” that I saw. This is in the context of a patch whose pitch and gate control signals are generated by a single sequencer module (Note: None of these are necessarily invalid if there is a common understanding in the conversation. If nothing else, this shows how ineffective of a word “velocity” is for general conversations like this):

1. The Technician: It refers to the primary SOURCE of the signal used to control the overall amplitude of the audio signal … i.e., the ability of the sequencer to record MIDI Velocity (1-127) messages and to convert them into CV signals (volts) that are sent by the sequencer on steps that send gate signals. A sequencer output labelled “Velocity” would refer to the source of the CV output signal, not (necessarily) the destination (so, not true that "an output labeled ”velocity” would be nonsensical since it would output CV that could be used for anything in a modular enviroment"). Usage of "velocity" should be limited to this because “velocity” is not a real world (or modular synthesizer) concept … drums and piano keys are hit with “force” … “velocity” is irrelevant if the drum head or string is not ultimate “struck”. And "volume" is not "velocity"

2. The Pragmatist: It refers to ANY control signal that is sent by the sequencer on steps with active gates, regardless of the signal’s original source … e.g., recorded MIDI Velocity, knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. A sequencer output labelled “Velocity” could be used to communicate that the output will be 0V when there is no live gate on a step (again, such a label would not be "nonsensical" ... if its intended meaning is understood)

3. The Fully Abstracted: It refers to the use of ANY control signal used to affect the ultimate amplitude of the audio signal, even if sent from a different module than the sequencer … e.g., you could use a Voltage Block or a Batumi LFO as a “velocity control” for a patch whose pitch and gate is sequenced by a Metropolis if you patch the CV output to the CV input of a VCA that is set up to control the amplitude of the sound source directly or the amplitude of an envelope patched to another VCA to control the amplitude of the sound source. This use may be combined with rude insults about "the imposement of MIDI/ITB limited thinking on modular gear". It is a flat out dismissal of any views of those using definition 1, 2 or 3

4. The Result-Oriented: It refers to an INPUT on a sound generating module that controls the volume of the module’s audio output via an internal VCA … the source of the CV signal is irrelevant. An input labelled “Velocity” may be used to indicate the types of available destinations by analogy to what commonly happens in MIDI land (e.g., Plonk). This can be an easier, and more cost/HP effective way to patch certain types of sounds (and the inputs are almost always normalled to full volume if you want to use something else)

Since Lisa asked what I'm getting on about, I used some quotes from her.

My point is that it is amazingly obvious that there are different meanings for the word "velocity" - in fact it has been pointed out by many posters in the thread. And (in my view) there are valid opinions to be made in all four descriptions. But, the thread has a sometimes-obnoxious, sometimes-comical, but always-endless stream of people posting responses that assume a different definition than the person they responded. So, to me, that indicates perhaps a goal not of bilateral communication and sharing, but of merely pontificating on a stage
Shledge
Oh, look who's pontificating. The irony.
pzoot
Shledge wrote:
Oh, look who's pontificating. The irony.


Definition of pontificate: "express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic"

So, completely up to your opinion whether that's what I'm doing.

But I think I'm doing two things (1) attempting to help well-intentioned people more effectively communicate by helping them to stop talking past each other and actually directly address each other's points and (2) creating a new topic for discussion ... whether some people even care about communicating in a community and instead have a primary motivation of just being heard, loudly.

I (personally) feel quite comfortable that I am not pontificating but am actually trying to help (1) this specific conversation move along and (2) reduce that selfish presence on this forum a bit by openly calling it out.

I am also fully open to debate and being proven wrong. I love being proven wrong!! That's why people like being surprised at movie endings ... they can be proved wrong without being embarrassed. To me, being wrong is learning. So, I embrace the surprise!!!
recordplay
Kodama wrote:
The velocity on some devices (Beat Step Pro) are wayyyyy too sensitive and can't be properly adjusted. Of course we also will want a mod wheel CV out and pressure, and why not poly pressure while we're at it! razz


You can change velocity scaling in midi control centre from 1-10 - I presume that means 0-10v - it's behaving a little wierd though when I apply this to a VCA - it seems to open the VCA and then close it if I'm subtle tapping the pads.

Excuse the dum question but is control voltage 0-10v range
Homepage Englisch
For me this question makes sense only if you're using some external desktop/keyboard sequencer where you can program each of the steps by pressing keys preferably. But even if there's only MIDI output on such a unit, my Doepfer Low Cost MIDI-to-CV offers CV outs for pitch, pitch wheel, gate, velocity and one more control (modwheel or some CC, it's programmable). Everything else is a matter of patching/programming the thing, both on modular and hardwired units.
nemox
I just got a nord drum 2 and an eloquencer.
Looks like it is not the ultimate combo to deal with velocity ... very frustrating
Keltie
BSPs CV sequencers have three outs. I’m kinda with OP on this one. Dedicating a second track for a secondary CV out feels a bit clunky, and ends up being a bit divey on seqs like Elo et al. Not a big deal, surely, to have gate and two cvs per track, right?

But then, some seqs provide this already....

Whether this is patched to a VCA and therefore becomes a velocity control a la midi, or not, is up to the user, but it would presumably be useful in many patches... vcf, oscs mods such as shape/ table, lfo rate for wubby stuff, etc etc
DJMaytag
Should I update this for 2019, as maybe now is finally the time? It's peanut butter jelly time!
DJMaytag
No one looks at the Erica Drum Sequencer, and says “oh, that’s got 28 channels of trigger outputs.” It’s 16 channels, with 12 accent outputs that modify the first 12 of the channels. But it’s all just triggers, right? Why do some of them need to be labeled as accents, is the argument that some of you seem to be putting forth.

I guess the most literal, dumbed down thing I want to see is a device that can generate more than 2 signals per event. For my usage, I would use one signal for a gate for an envelope, one signal to set the pitch of an oscillator, and a third signal to modify something else in my patch, whatever the hell that might be. I guess the important thing is that I want all the signals associated with the same event, not two events that happen to be occurring at the same time, as has been suggested to do with using two tracks of a sequencer, even though such a track might not be suitable for generating a voltage in the way I’d want (ie trying to use a note sequencer to generate a signal, but you’d want a negative voltage that some note sequencers likely don’t generate).
euromorcego
aaah, back again to this lovely thread ...
DJMaytag wrote:
No one looks at the Erica Drum Sequencer, and says “oh, that’s got 28 channels of trigger outputs.” It’s 16 channels, with 12 accent outputs that modify the first 12 of the channels. But it’s all just triggers, right? Why do some of them need to be labeled as accents, is the argument that some of you seem to be putting forth.

yes, why indeed? Why can't users decide if they rather want 24 channels with no accent output?

But you sort of answer your own question: it is only trigger outs. If you want to use the accents to trigger another percussion sound (or envelope or whatever) you are free to do so. You, on the other hand, request that the velocity output is hardwired to the velocity data, so people cannot use it to e.g., output another note cv signal.

And, something which you also (again) conveniently neglect: trigger outputs are not the issue, these are cheap. Good D/A conversion is a lot more effort, so it makes a lot more sense to be more flexible with the cv outputs.

DJMaytag wrote:

I guess the most literal, dumbed down thing I want to see is a device that can generate more than 2 signals per event. For my usage, I would use one signal for a gate for an envelope, one signal to set the pitch of an oscillator, and a third signal to modify something else in my patch, whatever the hell that might be. I guess the important thing is that I want all the signals associated with the same event, [not]... using two tracks of a sequencer, ....

As has been pointed out (again and again) that this is exactly how most outputs work, e.g. YARNS or HERMOD, allow you to output the velocity just as you like it. But you request that other users may not use these outputs as additional note cv outputs, and hence have the option to have more channels at the same time.

ps. and, by the way, there are a few sequencer/midi modules with dedicated velocity outputs (BSP was mentioned). Why not go for one of these instead of ranting ...?
DJMaytag
Erica Synths Drum Sequencer is a 16-track Trigger sequencer. You CAN use it to trigger more things, but you’re being undersold what it’s capable of. I’d rather be undersold than be oversold, necessitating having to buy two of something like an Eloquencer to truly get 8 tracks of CV/gate/MOD control.

I’ve been pretty clear that velocity is probably the #1 thing a keyboard player would want for expression, I don’t think any sort of additional output needs to be hardwired to such a signal. In the case of my Arturia Keystep, I’m quite happy that it has an assignable MOD output that just so happens to be what I’ve set to velocity.

Also, I didn’t even say it needs to be hardwired to the device. An expansion header could be used to add extra outputs to each track, such that if you don’t want such a thing, you can just use the standard module.

I put in a good word with Winter Modular, to allow the expansion header on the back of the Eloquencer to expand the outputs for velocity or whatever signal you want to generate. They decided to expand with MIDI. No big deal, but what I’m hoping for in the discussion is that the next person/dev that builds a dope Eurorack Sequencer, that they heed some of these ideas and allow for such extra outputs or similar functionality.
justin3am
In the past, I felt that if I wanted to do a lot of CV sequencing, using my Octatrack with a MIDI>CV converter or sending CV from Bitwig via my ES-3, were my two best options. I later got a Seq-1 from Audio Damage and I was totally stoked to have three modulation outputs, as well as gate and accent outputs that could be used independently. It's a fantastic sequencer for a single voice.

Once I started sequencing multiple voices within my modular, I started using a bunch of separate sequencers and got my Octatrack back in the mix.

Now that I've gotten a Vector sequencer from Five12 and combined it with a Hermod, I think I'll be doing most of my sequencing (MIDI and CV) from my euro system. The Vector on it's own has two sets of analog outputs; CV, Gate, "Velocity" (velocity of course can modulate anything). With the expander you get an additional 4 sets of analog outs. On top of that, each Part can transmit an additional 3 MIDI CCs which I can send to the Hermod to be converted to CV.

The Vector expander also has 8 assignable trigger input/output combo jacks. As inputs, they can be used to externally clock each part individually (though only 6 of these jacks can be used as inputs at once) or as outputs they can be used for clock divisions and extra gate outputs.

I've had my Vector for a few weeks and I can tell it's going to have a huge impact on the way I approach sequencing, not only in euro land but with my MIDI gear as well. Previously I though it would be silly to bring MIDI sequencing/processing into my modular, but now that I have tried it, I can tell it's going to make my whole setup more cohesive.
DJMaytag
Bumping this for 2019. I’m throwing in the towel on any one device being perfect for my needs, and reserving CV/gate/velocity to sequences coming from my DAW (via Expert Sleepers gear).

Currently looking into various combos of smaller sequencers (or pseudo/semi sequencers) instead of one single multitrack box like an Eloquencer or a Hermod. Building a Frequency Central Cryptograf soon and researching some other interesting options for trigger/gate/CV generation.
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