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Patching help please!
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion  
Author Patching help please!
sillyquestions?
Hey guys,

Currently having trouble with setting up a patch which gets my dixie through my bandpass filter then into an ADSR and then sequenced from my beat step pro. (Doesn't have to be this order, any will do).

I thought it would just be as simple as lots of 'ins' and 'outs' but it appears my ADSR only has two outputs and one gate input, unsure how I would set it up in a patch.. Does anyone have any suggestions? It seems like it should be so simple.. am I missing something?

Cheers,

Ru.
Agawell
audio path is vco -> vcf -> vca

cv path is bsp c1 v/oct out -> vco v/oct in

gate path is bsp c1 gate out -> adsr -> vca
Dcramer
The trick is to know what types of signals are useful to patch into what types of inputs.
Audio signals are easy, like Agawell said.
But there’s also Gate signals: a high steady voltage that starts an ADSR’s cycle and holds it at the sustain level.

There’s Trigger signals; short gates that start a function generator or are used as a clock source.

Then there’s CV signals like LFOs, Envelopes, pitch CV.

Normally you cannot plug the audio signal into an ADSR, because it needs a steady gate to start the envelope stages.

Some ADSRs may have a VCA as part of their circuit that you can patch audio into. thumbs up
Dave Peck
Maybe it's a matter of the way you are using the terminology, but you do not patch audio signals "into" or "through" an ADSR.

If you want your ADSR to control the shape of the volume for each note (the attack time, the release time etc.), you patch your audio signal (filter output) into the 'signal input' or 'audio input' of a VCA, and then out of the 'output' of the VCA. Then you CONTROL that VCA with the ADSR by patching the ADSR output to the CONTROL or "CV" input of the VCA, so the ADSR opens and closes the VCA and lets the audio through, with the volume of the notes shaped by the ADSR. You also need to connect a GATE signal from a keyboard or sequencer to the ADSR's GATE INPUT to tell the ADSR when to produce the envelope signal that is now controlling the VCA level.

NOTE: There are a few ADSR envelope generator modules that also include a VCA built into them, which would change these instructions. What kind of envelope generator module do you have?
sillyquestions?
Agawell wrote:
audio path is vco -> vcf -> vca

cv path is bsp c1 v/oct out -> vco v/oct in

gate path is bsp c1 gate out -> adsr -> vca


Hi Agawell, thanks for the reply, still not sure I understand. From reading that I'm taking that its not possible to use my ADSR, filter, oscillator at the same time sequenced from my BSP? correct me if I'm wrong!
sillyquestions?
Dcramer wrote:
The trick is to know what types of signals are useful to patch into what types of inputs.
Audio signals are easy, like Agawell said.
But there’s also Gate signals: a high steady voltage that starts an ADSR’s cycle and holds it at the sustain level.

There’s Trigger signals; short gates that start a function generator or are used as a clock source.

Then there’s CV signals like LFOs, Envelopes, pitch CV.

Normally you cannot plug the audio signal into an ADSR, because it needs a steady gate to start the envelope stages.

Some ADSRs may have a VCA as part of their circuit that you can patch audio into. thumbs up


cool! thanks for the info and taking your time out to reply, struggling to get my head around it but appreciate it nonetheless!
sillyquestions?
Dave Peck wrote:
Maybe it's a matter of the way you are using the terminology, but you do not patch audio signals "into" or "through" an ADSR.

If you want your ADSR to control the shape of the volume for each note (the attack time, the release time etc.), you patch your audio signal (filter output) into the 'signal input' or 'audio input' of a VCA, and then out of the 'output' of the VCA. Then you CONTROL that VCA with the ADSR by patching the ADSR output to the CONTROL or "CV" input of the VCA, so the ADSR opens and closes the VCA and lets the audio through, with the volume of the notes shaped by the ADSR. You also need to connect a GATE signal from a keyboard or sequencer to the ADSR's GATE INPUT to tell the ADSR when to produce the envelope signal that is now controlling the VCA level.

NOTE: There are a few ADSR envelope generator modules that also include a VCA built into them, which would change these instructions. What kind of envelope generator module do you have?


Hi Dave,

thanks again for the reply, I'm sure you were kind enough the other night to take the time out to reply to me.

Okay, thats a little clearer.. cheers man! Still unsure where the output of my oscillator goes to? Im going to try this patch out tomorrow when I've a little more time. Im currently using the doepfer A140 EG. Thanks again for the help!
/\/\/\/\/\/
your oscillator output goes into the input of your vca module, if you have one. the oscillator signal will not be patched into the EG.
The a140 eg does not process audio, it generates a control voltage that can control your the vca through which your oscillator signal is going.
sillyquestions?
/\/\/\/\/\/ wrote:
your oscillator output goes into the input of your vca module, if you have one. the oscillator signal will not be patched into the EG.
The a140 eg does not process audio, it generates a control voltage that can control your the vca through which your oscillator signal is going.


cool, cheers for the info man! so I'm going oscillator into vca, out of vca into filter? then where? I'm just so confused....
Dave Peck
I disagree with commenter /\/\/\/\ above - the comment omits the filter from your signal chain.

Here's what I believe you are trying to do:

The AUDIO PATH:
Your osc output goes to the filter audio input.
Filter output to VCA audio input
VCA audio output to your mixer/DAW/speakers whatever

the CONTROL VOLTAGE PATH:
Your GATE signal (from your keyboard or sequencer) goes to your ADSR GATE INPUT
Your ADSR OUTPUT goes to your VCA CONTROL VOLTAGE INPUT

You can also control your filter with various control voltages to raise and lower the filter cutoff frequency, using things like the CV output signals from an ADSR, or LFO, or anything else that generates a CONTROL VOLTAGE SIGNAL (as opposed to an AUDIO signal).
sillyquestions?
Dave Peck wrote:
I disagree with commenter /\/\/\/\ above - the comment omits the filter from your signal chain.

Here's what I believe you are trying to do:

The AUDIO PATH:
Your osc output goes to the filter audio input.
Filter output to VCA audio input
VCA audio output to your mixer/DAW/speakers whatever

the CONTROL VOLTAGE PATH:
Your GATE signal (from your keyboard or sequencer) goes to your ADSR GATE INPUT
Your ADSR OUTPUT goes to your VCA CONTROL VOLTAGE INPUT

You can also control your filter with various control voltages to raise and lower the filter cutoff frequency, using things like the CV output signals from an ADSR, or LFO, or anything else that generates a CONTROL VOLTAGE SIGNAL (as opposed to an AUDIO signal).


Yeah, I think thats exactly what Im trying to do Dave, thanks a lot! I have the MI Viels. Is this still going to work? I believe the input below each channel is a CV input. Am I correct? Cheers again Dave, much appreciated!! Im looking for a nice EG and VCA is there anything you would recommend?
Dave Peck
sillyquestions? wrote:
Dave Peck wrote:
I disagree with commenter /\/\/\/\ above - the comment omits the filter from your signal chain.

Here's what I believe you are trying to do:

The AUDIO PATH:
Your osc output goes to the filter audio input.
Filter output to VCA audio input
VCA audio output to your mixer/DAW/speakers whatever

the CONTROL VOLTAGE PATH:
Your GATE signal (from your keyboard or sequencer) goes to your ADSR GATE INPUT
Your ADSR OUTPUT goes to your VCA CONTROL VOLTAGE INPUT

You can also control your filter with various control voltages to raise and lower the filter cutoff frequency, using things like the CV output signals from an ADSR, or LFO, or anything else that generates a CONTROL VOLTAGE SIGNAL (as opposed to an AUDIO signal).


Yeah, I think thats exactly what Im trying to do Dave, thanks a lot! I have the MI Viels. Is this still going to work? I believe the input below each channel is a CV input. Am I correct? Cheers again Dave, much appreciated!! Im looking for a nice EG and VCA is there anything you would recommend?


Yes, the four jacks right below each of the four audio inputs (which are labeled "IN") are the four CV inputs for the four separate VCAs in the Veils module:
https://mutable-instruments.net/modules/veils/manual/

Since you already have four VCAs in the veils, are you sure you need to get more VCAs right away? Maybe just get some Control Voltage sources to use with the Veils, like a couple of regular envelope generators (no VCAs included) and a few LFOs? There are tons to choose from. Have you visited modulargrid.net yet? Lots of fun to be had there, using the search function to browse through all of the various modules.

Here's a modulargrid search based on euro module format, all currently available envelope generators:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/browser?SearchName=&SearchVendor =&SearchFunction=4&SearchSecondaryfunction=&SearchTe=&SearchTemethod=m ax&SearchBuildtype=a&SearchLifecycle=available&SearchSet=all&SearchMar ketplace=&SearchIsmodeled=0&SearchShowothers=1&SearchShow1u=0&order=ta g&direction=asc
Keltie
reading the manuals might help. Mutables are generally pretty clear.
sillyquestions?
Dave Peck wrote:
sillyquestions? wrote:
Dave Peck wrote:
I disagree with commenter /\/\/\/\ above - the comment omits the filter from your signal chain.

Here's what I believe you are trying to do:

The AUDIO PATH:
Your osc output goes to the filter audio input.
Filter output to VCA audio input
VCA audio output to your mixer/DAW/speakers whatever

the CONTROL VOLTAGE PATH:
Your GATE signal (from your keyboard or sequencer) goes to your ADSR GATE INPUT
Your ADSR OUTPUT goes to your VCA CONTROL VOLTAGE INPUT

You can also control your filter with various control voltages to raise and lower the filter cutoff frequency, using things like the CV output signals from an ADSR, or LFO, or anything else that generates a CONTROL VOLTAGE SIGNAL (as opposed to an AUDIO signal).


Yeah, I think thats exactly what Im trying to do Dave, thanks a lot! I have the MI Viels. Is this still going to work? I believe the input below each channel is a CV input. Am I correct? Cheers again Dave, much appreciated!! Im looking for a nice EG and VCA is there anything you would recommend?


Yes, the four jacks right below each of the four audio inputs (which are labeled "IN") are the four CV inputs for the four separate VCAs in the Veils module:
https://mutable-instruments.net/modules/veils/manual/

Since you already have four VCAs in the veils, are you sure you need to get more VCAs right away? Maybe just get some Control Voltage sources to use with the Veils, like a couple of regular envelope generators (no VCAs included) and a few LFOs? There are tons to choose from. Have you visited modulargrid.net yet? Lots of fun to be had there, using the search function to browse through all of the various modules.

Here's a modulargrid search based on euro module format, all currently available envelope generators:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/browser?SearchName=&SearchVendor =&SearchFunction=4&SearchSecondaryfunction=&SearchTe=&SearchTemethod=m ax&SearchBuildtype=a&SearchLifecycle=available&SearchSet=all&SearchMar ketplace=&SearchIsmodeled=0&SearchShowothers=1&SearchShow1u=0&order=ta g&direction=asc


Cheers Dave.

The only reason I was asking is because i already have the batumi for modulation plus I have the mother 32 which sounds great when modulated from the LFO.

Since you informed me of how to patch up my Dixie properly I spent yesterday trying out new patches. Quickly to realise I had used up all 4 inputs and outputs on pretty much every patch still having a couple more things that could be modulated. I thought to myself that if I had another VCA around I could modulate these things along with. So I was just wondering if there was anything you would recommend?

Cheers for all the help!
erskyy
yES
Dave Peck
sillyquestions? wrote:
Dave Peck wrote:
sillyquestions? wrote:
Dave Peck wrote:
I disagree with commenter /\/\/\/\ above - the comment omits the filter from your signal chain.

Here's what I believe you are trying to do:

The AUDIO PATH:
Your osc output goes to the filter audio input.
Filter output to VCA audio input
VCA audio output to your mixer/DAW/speakers whatever

the CONTROL VOLTAGE PATH:
Your GATE signal (from your keyboard or sequencer) goes to your ADSR GATE INPUT
Your ADSR OUTPUT goes to your VCA CONTROL VOLTAGE INPUT

You can also control your filter with various control voltages to raise and lower the filter cutoff frequency, using things like the CV output signals from an ADSR, or LFO, or anything else that generates a CONTROL VOLTAGE SIGNAL (as opposed to an AUDIO signal).


Yeah, I think thats exactly what Im trying to do Dave, thanks a lot! I have the MI Viels. Is this still going to work? I believe the input below each channel is a CV input. Am I correct? Cheers again Dave, much appreciated!! Im looking for a nice EG and VCA is there anything you would recommend?


Yes, the four jacks right below each of the four audio inputs (which are labeled "IN") are the four CV inputs for the four separate VCAs in the Veils module:
https://mutable-instruments.net/modules/veils/manual/

Since you already have four VCAs in the veils, are you sure you need to get more VCAs right away? Maybe just get some Control Voltage sources to use with the Veils, like a couple of regular envelope generators (no VCAs included) and a few LFOs? There are tons to choose from. Have you visited modulargrid.net yet? Lots of fun to be had there, using the search function to browse through all of the various modules.

Here's a modulargrid search based on euro module format, all currently available envelope generators:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/browser?SearchName=&SearchVendor =&SearchFunction=4&SearchSecondaryfunction=&SearchTe=&SearchTemethod=m ax&SearchBuildtype=a&SearchLifecycle=available&SearchSet=all&SearchMar ketplace=&SearchIsmodeled=0&SearchShowothers=1&SearchShow1u=0&order=ta g&direction=asc


Cheers Dave.

The only reason I was asking is because i already have the batumi for modulation plus I have the mother 32 which sounds great when modulated from the LFO.

Since you informed me of how to patch up my Dixie properly I spent yesterday trying out new patches. Quickly to realise I had used up all 4 inputs and outputs on pretty much every patch still having a couple more things that could be modulated. I thought to myself that if I had another VCA around I could modulate these things along with. So I was just wondering if there was anything you would recommend?

Cheers for all the help!


Well - you know what they say -

srsly never

From your patching results, it seems you're discovering this sooner than some other people Mr. Green

Maybe add a dual VCA or two. Check through modulargridlink for options. Things like the Doepfer A-132-3, the Intellijel uVCAII, and the Happy Nerding 3x VCA may be good choices.
sillyquestions?
Dave Peck wrote:
sillyquestions? wrote:
Dave Peck wrote:
sillyquestions? wrote:
Dave Peck wrote:
I disagree with commenter /\/\/\/\ above - the comment omits the filter from your signal chain.

Here's what I believe you are trying to do:

The AUDIO PATH:
Your osc output goes to the filter audio input.
Filter output to VCA audio input
VCA audio output to your mixer/DAW/speakers whatever

the CONTROL VOLTAGE PATH:
Your GATE signal (from your keyboard or sequencer) goes to your ADSR GATE INPUT
Your ADSR OUTPUT goes to your VCA CONTROL VOLTAGE INPUT

You can also control your filter with various control voltages to raise and lower the filter cutoff frequency, using things like the CV output signals from an ADSR, or LFO, or anything else that generates a CONTROL VOLTAGE SIGNAL (as opposed to an AUDIO signal).


Yeah, I think thats exactly what Im trying to do Dave, thanks a lot! I have the MI Viels. Is this still going to work? I believe the input below each channel is a CV input. Am I correct? Cheers again Dave, much appreciated!! Im looking for a nice EG and VCA is there anything you would recommend?


Yes, the four jacks right below each of the four audio inputs (which are labeled "IN") are the four CV inputs for the four separate VCAs in the Veils module:
https://mutable-instruments.net/modules/veils/manual/

Since you already have four VCAs in the veils, are you sure you need to get more VCAs right away? Maybe just get some Control Voltage sources to use with the Veils, like a couple of regular envelope generators (no VCAs included) and a few LFOs? There are tons to choose from. Have you visited modulargrid.net yet? Lots of fun to be had there, using the search function to browse through all of the various modules.

Here's a modulargrid search based on euro module format, all currently available envelope generators:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/browser?SearchName=&SearchVendor =&SearchFunction=4&SearchSecondaryfunction=&SearchTe=&SearchTemethod=m ax&SearchBuildtype=a&SearchLifecycle=available&SearchSet=all&SearchMar ketplace=&SearchIsmodeled=0&SearchShowothers=1&SearchShow1u=0&order=ta g&direction=asc


Cheers Dave.

The only reason I was asking is because i already have the batumi for modulation plus I have the mother 32 which sounds great when modulated from the LFO.

Since you informed me of how to patch up my Dixie properly I spent yesterday trying out new patches. Quickly to realise I had used up all 4 inputs and outputs on pretty much every patch still having a couple more things that could be modulated. I thought to myself that if I had another VCA around I could modulate these things along with. So I was just wondering if there was anything you would recommend?

Cheers for all the help!


Well - you know what they say -

srsly never

From your patching results, it seems you're discovering this sooner than some other people Mr. Green

Maybe add a dual VCA or two. Check through modulargridlink for options. Things like the Doepfer A-132-3, the Intellijel uVCAII, and the Happy Nerding 3x VCA may be good choices.


Haha, yeah, I've read that everywhere i've ever looked. Glad I've finally understood what they mean.

What about envelope generators? What would you recommend? I like snappy..?
I was thinking about Maths. Yet to see a bad word about it. Whats your thoughts? I realise it's a function generator but from what I've read it's an EG too. Let me know what you think, if you don't mind.

Cheers again for the help.
Dave Peck
Opinions about EGs vary and i don't have hands-on experience with Euro format EG modules (I have a large MU system) so I'll leave it up to others to offer opinions on that. You may want to start a separate thread specifically about euro format EGs in the Euro sub-forum.
sillyquestions?
Dave Peck wrote:
Opinions about EGs vary and i don't have hands-on experience with Euro format EG modules (I have a large MU system) so I'll leave it up to others to offer opinions on that. You may want to start a separate thread specifically about euro format EGs in the Euro sub-forum.


Okay doke, will do! Thanks for all the advice!
Pelsea
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