Mu Ring Modulatord

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Mu Ring Modulatord

Post by NYMo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:55 am

Hey there...been away a couple of years making music...ha !
Ring modulators ? Was looking at the Dotcom one and just wondering if there was anything better around ?
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Post by alternating.bit » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:17 am

I like the Oakley one... a bit more control than the one from Dotcom.

http://www.oakleysound.com/ringmod.htm


Corsynth's Odyssey of Sound VCO has one built in which is kind of cool too.

Image

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Post by JohnLRice » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:46 pm

There are several listed on ModularGrid:
https://www.modulargrid.net/d/modules/b ... unction=19

I have the following three (off the top of my head) and they all sound good:

Club of the Knobs C 1631 - 2 inputs per 'side' with fade control

Moon Modular 502D - a full blown dual VCA with ring mod,


Synth-Werk SW 6401M BODE RING MODULATOR - classic Bode/Moog design, transformers plus active circuitry

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Post by josaka » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:54 pm

yep that bode SW does sound great..€350 for a ring mod tho ! :moneyburn: :emt: ..
The Corsynth Oddyssey and the Oakley are both based on the Arp oddyssey/2600 ring mod and they both sound very good as well..
klangtastic any of these 3..
the corsynth as a bonus is a great osc if you need that too..

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Post by Dave Peck » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:28 pm

There's a really nice ring mod in the MOTM-190 dual micro VCA. But it's 5U, not MU, and it's rarely available / out of production.

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Post by alternating.bit » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:02 pm

Dave Peck wrote:There's a really nice ring mod in the MOTM-190 dual micro VCA. But it's 5U, not MU, and it's rarely available / out of production.
Yeah I have that module and actually released a techno EP based off of the ring mod combined with a Polivoks filter lol. Fun stuff.

[video][/video]

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Post by Synthbuilder » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:54 am

josaka wrote:The Corsynth Oddyssey and the Oakley are both based on the Arp oddyssey/2600 ring mod and they both sound very good as well...
I pretty sure the Corsynth one is based on the Odyssey. Pablo will be able to confirm. But the Oakley one is based around the 2600 which is a completely different animal. The Ody one is essentially an exclusive-or (X-OR) logic gate taking its inputs from the VCO's pulse waves. Its inputs are processed as 1s and 0s. The 2600 is a true four quadrant multiplier (4QM) which is similar to the 'ring mod' circuits of the Synthi, CS80 and other classic synths. Think of this as a bipolar VCA. As such it's a linear device and can take any type of input signal; CVs, sines as well as square waves.

Neither are true ring modulators since that requires four diodes and couple of audio transformers. However, the classic 'ring mod' sound is surely the sound of a 4QM.

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Post by Synthbuilder » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:59 am

You can also make a decent enough ring modulator sound (actually 4QM) from a single VCA, a mult and a mixer with inverting inputs.

The Oakley Discontinuity will also do 4QM.

Tony

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Post by Thalassa » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:06 am

Synthbuilder wrote:
josaka wrote:The Corsynth Oddyssey and the Oakley are both based on the Arp oddyssey/2600 ring mod and they both sound very good as well...
I pretty sure the Corsynth one is based on the Odyssey. Pablo will be able to confirm.
Yes, Tony you are right , they are different beasts :)

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Post by josaka » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:29 am

I stand corrected :)

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Post by kindredlost » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:16 am

I would love to own the variety that JLR outlined.
The Bode RM would be really nice, but the :moneyburn: :ripbanana:

I own a dotcom Q116, Oakley and the Ken Stone Cat Girl Synth Real Ring Modulator.

All three are different enough to have around.

My favorite is the Oakley. I like it just for the way it sounds right off but also for the flexibility. I was stunned at how small changes in the controls can offer endless variety in the sounds. Putting cv to it is wonderful.

The CGS Real RM is passive so you have to boost the output somewhere in the signal train and it has a very distinct "dustiness" about it. Sort of like an old radio or something. Hard to describe but I'm certain someone can deliver a better technical analysis of why it sounds the way it does. I'd say more analog over digital but that is not a viable descriptive terminology. It is not quite as "precise" sounding.

I also have the Discontinuity but haven't figured out the RM function on it. Maybe Tony can tutor us about how to tweak it to make the function evident? :help:

I didn't know the Corsynth VCO RM was based on the Odyssey design. I really liked the Odyssey I had decades ago and the RM was a vital part of what made it killer, along with that osc sync.
Last edited by kindredlost on Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rex Coil 7 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:21 am

Ok, I have to bust out my soapbox and bullhorn for this'n. Stand by for this morning's 1,000 words of Rexola enthusiasm. I'm even bustin' out the large blue font, so you gotta know I'm takin' on the bully podium.

:lol: :mrgreen: :yay:


Electro Harmonix Ring Thing.


I've been fiddle dickin' with Ring Mods for almost four decades (next year makes forty years that I've been into this stuff). I've owned many, including the Dot Com Q116 (which I found to be a bit mundane), the Moogerfooger and the Moog Minifooger Ring Mod (which happens to be for sale btw), skaboodles of digital/modeled ring mods (the Line 6 modeled ring mod is exceptional), as well as countless passive ring mods most of which are of the four diode/transformer type. I have FOUR of those built into my modular system as permanent members of the signal chain.

That said, I find the Ring Thing to be something very very special. They sell new for $230 or so, I paid $157 used for mine and $150 used for my brother's (gift). So for about $150 you can haz a crackin' nuts ass digital ring mod that also does tremolo, vibrato, pitch shifting, provides an additional VCO that tracks like a heat seeking guided missile, and whack-ass space FX ... with nine user preset slots.

It does so much more than ~just~ your buck standard ring modulation. It will provide all of the rude ass clang-bang-rang-a-lang racket you want ... all you can eat. It has it's own VCO/LFO, while also providing 1/4" inputs for your own modulator and carrier waveforms. It accepts external modulation signals (expression pedals, LFO/VCO, Envelope Generator, sequencer). It has stereo outputs. Nine preset slots. Does excellent solid tracking pitch shifting (so solid it can easily be used as an additional "VCO" with your synth). There's a mix control that allows mixing of the input signal with the ring modulated signal ... from 100% dry to 100% wet and everywhere in between. It does vibrato, tremolo (with a modulation oscillator that goes well into the audio rate range). It also will tune to your input signal by simply holding down the left foot switch for about two seconds ... you can actually hear the internal VCO sweep it's pitch until it's in unison with the input signal.

You also are provided with the convenience of a bypass foot switch to immediately engage or bypass the circuit.

You can introduce the Ring Thing into any location of your modular rig with the use of a VCA module (to cut the modular signal down to instrument level) and an instrument interface (to boost the signal back up to modular synth level after it's been Rung Thunged). I'm not sure about this, but I would think some sortof external FX "In/Out" module exists in 5U that has a VCA and an Instrument Interface built into one 5U space to accommodate this process. I know for certain there are Euro modules which do just that ... I would hope there's a 5U solution of the same ilk.

I've had my Ring Thing for about two months now. I am so impressed, so enamored, so enthused by it's ability that I am designing an I/O port specifically for incorporating the Ring Thing into the signal path of my own project synth. But even without going through all of that, what it can do just being stuck into the signal chain after the output VCA is enough to produce shit tons of ringy dingy killer sounds and is plenty effective on the output of the synth.

Ring Thing. King Ring.

:despair:
kindredlost wrote: ... The CGS Real RM is passive so you have to boost the output somewhere in the signal train and it has a very distinct "dustiness" about it. Sort of like an old radio or something. Hard to describe but I'm certain someone can deliver a better technical analysis of why it sounds the way it does. I'd say more analog over digital but that is not a viable descriptive terminology....
Those are what I based the four ring mods I use in the signal path of the project modular. They are the ones I spent a couple of months testing different diodes in. From Germaniums, to Silicons, various transistors, and even using LEDs as diodes (I tested six different types and styles of LEDs including rectangular, round, colored, clear and all kinds of combinations of all of these LEDs and diodes as well).

Image

I actually ended up choosing 3mm "Water Clear Blue" LEDs in all four ring mods. Much higher output, less distortion, and just overall better ring modulation. Using those LEDs I find no need to boost the output of the ring mod to match the rest of the system. Then again, I use feedback circuits on every one of the fourteen mixer channels scattered throughout the synth, which add some gain .. so that's happening.

Image

So ... CGS "Real Ring Mod" (based on the Ken Stone design) and the Electro Harmonix Ring Thing. Those two about do it for ringin' it out!

:tu:
Last edited by Rex Coil 7 on Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by kindredlost » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:28 am

REX IS BACK UP & RUNNIN! :yay:

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Post by kindredlost » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:57 am

Rex Coil 7 wrote:... I'm not sure about this, but I would think some sortof external FX "In/Out" module exists in 5U that has a VCA and an Instrument Interface built into one 5U space to accommodate this process. I know for certain there are Euro modules which do just that ... I would hope there's a 5U solution of the same ilk...
Cheapest solution may be the Q114 Mixer++. Just configure more than one of the channels to be x100 or x2 boost. ~$170.00 is pretty affordable.

I don't have one so I can't definitively say for sure but it seems like it might work well for that. I use a mixer or vca for attenuation to external FX and the Instrument Interface to boost it back up again. A waste of two expensive modules.

I might need to think about getting a few of the Q114's if someone can verify they work for this. I am not certain about the boost stage. Is there a way to control that or is it just straight forward x2 or x100 boost?

Sorry for the diversion from the Ring Modulator topic. Back to the main subject... :oops:

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Post by Synthbuilder » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:20 am

kindredlost wrote:I also have the Discontinuity but haven't figured out the RM function on it. Maybe Tony can tutor us about how to tweak it to make the function evident?
To put the Discontinuity into ring modulator mode: Threshold and Discontinuity pots set to fully counter clockwise, Fold and Offset pots to their middle position, and the Fold CV pot fully clockwise.

The two inputs are INPUT and FOLD. The ring mod (4QM) output is at OUTPUT. The Volume pot will need to be adjusted so the output doesn't clip.

It's not as well behaved as the dedicated module but it has its uses.

Tony

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Post by kindredlost » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:26 am

:hail: Thanks Tony! Will try this tonight.

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Post by Rex Coil 7 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:32 pm

kindredlost wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:... I'm not sure about this, but I would think some sortof external FX "In/Out" module exists in 5U that has a VCA and an Instrument Interface built into one 5U space to accommodate this process. I know for certain there are Euro modules which do just that ... I would hope there's a 5U solution of the same ilk...
Cheapest solution may be the Q114 Mixer++. Just configure more than one of the channels to be x100 or x2 boost. ~$170.00 is pretty affordable.

I don't have one so I can't definitively say for sure but it seems like it might work well for that. I use a mixer or vca for attenuation to external FX and the Instrument Interface to boost it back up again. A waste of two expensive modules.

I might need to think about getting a few of the Q114's if someone can verify they work for this. I am not certain about the boost stage. Is there a way to control that or is it just straight forward x2 or x100 boost?

Sorry for the diversion from the Ring Modulator topic. Back to the main subject... :oops:
I have a Q114 and I can assure you it provides enough boost to bring instrument level stuff up to modular levels, with ease. Don't forget that you can come in to one channel, boost the signal, come out of that channel and route the signal right back into another channel and boost it again. Then you can use the two remaining channels as distributors to pipe the signal to two separate destinations (and even invert the signal or boost it again if need be).

You may even be able to use the Q114 to attenuate the signal enough down to instrument levels, run it into external FX, then back into the Q114 to boost it back up to modular levels. I can't see why that wouldn't work.

And this is on topic ... I started the whole thing about using an external ring modulator, and this conversation is relevant regarding how to make that happen.

:tu:
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Post by Flareless » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:45 pm

The CGS60 Stomp Box Adapter is a great way to add 3 FX loops to your modular. I use mine to map different sets of external effects to different sections of my patches without all that mucking about with mixers and attenuators
Rich

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Post by Thalassa » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:00 am

kindredlost wrote:I didn't know the Corsynth VCO RM was based on the Odyssey design. I really liked the Odyssey I had decades ago and the RM was a vital part of what made it killer, along with that osc sync.
Yes the C104 Odyssey of sound VCO is based on the core circuit of the Oddyssey VCO so it has the special ARP sync sound :)

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Post by Rex Coil 7 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:58 am

Flareless wrote:The CGS60 Stomp Box Adapter is a great way to add 3 FX loops to your modular. I use mine to map different sets of external effects to different sections of my patches without all that mucking about with mixers and attenuators
AH! Yes! ... indeed so. Very nice Rich!

8-) Member *Flairless version (ready to use complete 5U module ... noice!) = https://richsstudioproject.wordpress.co ... x-adapter/ :nod:

8-) CGS Version (full-on DIY only - this is for etching your own PCB or having a PCB service make one for you) = http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/cgs/ ... 0_sba.html

8-) Modular Addict bare PCB (this board looks really nice, silk screened component values, double sided and plated through holes) ... for some reason there are pictures of the "Elby Designs" version PCB which is blue and has plated through holes as well as a picture of the Ken Stone board which is green and does not have plated through holes ... no idea what's up with that and I am not clear about which board your money buys you ... $10.99 plus s/h =
https://modularaddict.com/module-type/u ... -cgs60-pcb

8-) Bill Of Materials (BOM) PDF = http://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/cgs/ ... -cgs60.pdf

Thoughts: It appears you can use one, two, or all three segments (channels) of the PCB if that's your wish. I would render a guess that send level and return level pots could be added if needed. Board looks good, has provisions for 2 standoffs on each of the 3 channels/segments (total of 6 standoff holes). The PCB is 6" x 1" total area. If you got clever you could add a toggle switch or two that would permit instant channel (loop) selection between 2 or even 3 channels/loops. That may require using only two of the segments to make space for the toggle switches ... or perhaps not, depending on how slick you are at MU panel space utilization and how cleverly you go about the design work.

CV channel/loop switching: I can easily envision using a 2MU panel and blending one of these boards with a Dot Com Q128 Switch, or even a Q111 Pan/Fade so CV could be used to swap between external signal loops.

Super Duper hot rod: You might even get really slick and include one (or two?) of the passive CGS ring mod PCBs into the works (board available at Modular Addict for about $10 bucks USD). I think if I worked at the design a bit I could incorporate the CGS60 Stomp Box Adapter, Q111 Pan/Fade, Q128 Switch, and one (perhaps even two) of the CGS Real Ring Mod passive Ken Stone style ring mods all into a 2MU panel. Do it right and the whole mess would only use a single module power cable to power the whole works.

:nana: :hihi:

(unsubbed ... I've done all the damage I can inflict upon the poor soul that asked for help on something I'm probably entirely too passionate about! ... haahaahaa!)

:whistle:
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Post by JohnLRice » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:24 am

I've been meaning to do a careful comparison of the ring modulators I have. I haven't done a video or audio demo yet but it may have to wait because my quick testing led to a lot of trouble shooting and module rearranging! :roll:

Synth-Werk SW 6401M
Club of the Knobs C1631
Moon Modular 502D
Synth Tech MOTM-190

The Synth-Werk 6401M sounds significantly different then the other three which sound nearly identical to each other. I'm assuming this is largely because the Synth-Werk uses 2 transformers and a ring of diodes while the other three use opamp VCA techniques. (I'm pretty sure)

I stopped with the test because I thought I could set them all up so I could easily switch between them but the patching was getting complex even with 4 different ring mod capable modules (I had a couple more I wanted to include also) because the Synth-Werk starts to distort with not much of an input (Nominal Input Voltage is 1V RMS) and while this wasn't hard to set up I realized I may have been putting the other modules at a disadvantage since they were all getting the same input levels but might of sounded different if they had a hotter input. :doh:

Anyways, I almost pulled the Synth-Werk module out to sell it because it's 60 cycle hum was so LOUD! :eek: :mad: :ripbanana: But, it turned out it was just picking up radiated 60 cycle and after literally hours of messing around with module arrangements across several cases I finally found a spot where the hum was nearly eliminated. (it has to be mounted upside down but that's better then having it sit loose half way out of the case or having me stand there holding it completely out of the case at a 45 degree angle!)

Anyways, from what I was hearing the Synth-Werk sounded much more "hi-fi", brighter, more metallic, while the other three sounded more rolled off, rounded, subdued. The Moon and Synth Tech had more self noise hiss then the SW and COTK (with no input) and just a touch of hum, with the COTK having no detectable hum and of course the SW having a variable amount depending on its positioning.

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Post by Dr Gris » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:19 am

Those small UTC transformers are shielded but maybe needs more shielding :hmm:

@ Rex Coil 7
Don't you experience any hum from your transformer based ringmods? They're not shielded at all.

//M

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Post by JohnLRice » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:22 pm

Dr Gris wrote:Those small UTC transformers are shielded but maybe needs more shielding :hmm:

@ Rex Coil 7
Don't you experience any hum from your transformer based ringmods? They're not shielded at all.

//M
It's interesting that in a 8 MU case with a Power-One linear supply in it, placing the 6401M in the position furthest away from the power supply's transformer caused the loudest hum, pulling it half way out of the rack reduced the hum to almost nothing but then continuing to pull it out further increased the hum again. So, there is more to it then mere distance, something else is a factor? Turning the module upside down in that same position and fully inserting it reduced the hum to a level almost as low as when it was right side up and pulled half way out, which I though odd because the 6401M's transformers seemed to be more exposed to the power supply's transformer! The best practical position I found was placing the module very close to the power supply but upside down . . .I think that the 6401M's transformers are only 2 or 3 inches away from the power supply's transformer! :hmm: :despair: My "guess is that the sensitive part of the module (not sure if it IS the transformers or something else) needs to be in some sort of 'node' of the EMI?
Synthoholic wrote: Image

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Post by Ockeghem » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:17 pm

upside down...
Confirms my theory that JLR can set up patches like that while standing on his head. :mrgreen:
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Post by JohnLRice » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:23 pm

Ockeghem wrote:
upside down...
Confirms my theory that JLR can set up patches like that while standing on his head. :mrgreen:
:spin: :nod:

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