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*please do not deface your posts*
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Tech DIY Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author *please do not deface your posts*
axolotl
edit:

it's clear that no one wants to work on the project i've proposed. i'd like to delete this post. thank you

-a

===
Don’t be disrespectful of others by deleting your content just because you are emotional. Thx.
ersatzplanet
Alexa - I couldn't help but notice your forum name's similarity to Axoloti. I don't know if you are familiar with the Axoloti digital synth made in Belgium. It would be perfect for the synth you want. It is basically like a Nord Micr in that it has a graphical interface that can program the PCB to be any sort of synth to effect you can probably think up. You could connect with someone to make the hardware to interface the CV and controls to it. It already has MIDI and extensive MIDI control over all of its parameters so CV>MIDI CC conversion can work for that too. It is Polyphonic and has effects abilities too. At $90 it is easy for you to get and prototype the synth you want before even getting somebody involved making the CV interface for you. You should check it out at http://www.axoloti.com

It looks like this:

axolotl
james,

in this context i'm not a consumer, but rather trying to create a business. the search for a partnership so far is unsuccessful. i'm guessing i'll have to do this solo. i'm mainly looking for someone who has similar taste in instruments, and a desire to work on the project at full speed

unfortunately, i disclosed the details in the project by trying to find an appropriate person. i'm hoping no one is going to take the idea and complete a competing product before i can. tho, i'd hope if someone wanted to do that they'd contact me to work together

-alexa
Paranormal Patroler
Ideas are cheap and abound, implementation is hard. When people in small companies ask me to sign an NDA before they share their amazing new module idea I laugh as it shows their lack of business experience. I don't want to sound snark, but ideas are worthless unless there's a proof of concept to go along. I have forgotten more module ideas in a week than most people come up in a year - who cares? I can't design a PCB on my own hihi

I really hope you find someone to collaborate with and make your modules come true. Ans welcome to MW. Lots of very creative people around here. It would be nice to see your project progress.

PS: James, do you happen to know if Axoloti can be repurposed as a CV-to-MIDI device? How many CV inputs can it support?
pld
Coming at it from the implementation trenches perspective...
(Caveat: It's maybe a worst-case interpretation after seeing lots of "have idea, just need implementors" across various industries, so YMMV, salt to taste, "it depends", etc. smile)

You seem to be looking for an expert who is creative and technically skilled enough to implement a project, isn't working on one right now, and want them to do some heavy lifting on/invest in your particular one as well as be "willing to take direction". The follow-up from that would be "why would they?" since it's potentially a big ask.
It doesn't seem far-fetched to assume that (as Paranormal Patroler mentions, ideas are cheap) most experts fitting the first part of that description will already have more own ideas than they'll ever be able to realize, so there also seems to be the implicit assumption that they
1) haven't thought of your idea yet
2) might be missing something to be able to implement it (that you can provide)
3) thought of it, but didn't find it feasible/worthwhile (and you can change their mind).

Even if 1 were true, given "more own ideas" it's maybe not as important as 2 and 3, in which case emphasizing why/how a collaboration would make the project both attractive and able succeed seems to be key: novel design twists, additional resources, project planning, market research, business model, manufacturing expertise, etc. Those points are kinda mentioned in the pitch but -- echoing 'implementation is hard' -- are arguably the more important parts of getting from zero to product (let alone market).

And that's not to say it's impossible to do, and sometimes things will align spontaneously, but reframing the search might be an idea. Maybe seek out people who have designed similar things to see if they might be interested (or be able to recommend someone). Or widen the net to "engineer wanted, will pay with royalties" since the risk/reward has to come in somewhere (time is finite after all)?


axolotl wrote:
i don't need a programmer, as i expect to handle the programming portion of the project myself. a lot of the possible designs are already in a proto-form phase, and all of this could be accelerated

If programming isn't the bottleneck, a (monetizable) path could be to develop something for VCV Rack before/while moving to hardware?
axolotl
paranormal,

i definitely don't have a lack of business experience. i was a professional soundtrack composer from 2007-2016. i do have an interest in making sure no one takes the work i've started, and completes a competing product that is identical before my design is complete

i'm buying an arduino at the beginning of next month, and should be able to demo MIDI -> 4x CV/GATE, w/ 4 VCO's and 4 gate VCA's. also, a single CV/GATE -> quad polyphonic allocator. the micro-controller programming is in line w/ my ability. one of the main things holding me back is being able to afford such simple little things as an arduino w/ immediacy. my time keeps being wasted in regards to waiting for things to come in the mail

the main role of a partner would probably be trouble-shooting, and immediate access to more tools than i have on hand. i have a VCO design drafted, however it's the part i have the least idea about streamlining. i keep wanting to reduce designs beyond their minimum requirements, which obviously is TOO MUCH reduction. someone w/ circuit design experience could make adjustments to get everything down to a proper minimal design. i'm pushing forward w/ this myself, however i THINK a lot of time will be wasted

pld,

i absolutely have interest in VCV rack! despite that it's not even at it's first official release version. the main concern w/ VCV rack is that i can't get xcode to work on my out-dated mac. i could open the can of worms that is installing linux etc. i switched to hardware design as a result of not being able to get xcode working, and i think it's more worthwhile anyhow

i was looking for someone who would be willing to invest work into a project that will pay off once sales start. so far i've not met anyone. it might make sense for me to instead hire a trouble shooter as a contractor. HOWEVER, THIS IS BORING. the better situation is to create synergy w/ a partner and possibly even form a team. there's no way to effectively run a collaborative effort without an actual assigned director. from my experience, 2 people w/ equal say always amounts in stagnation

-alexa
sduck
axolotl wrote:
edit:

it's clear that no one wants to work on the project i've proposed. i'd like to delete this post. thank you

-a


2 days? No way. Give it some time.
axolotl
sduck,

i was approached by a potential business partner, and the exchange we had was extremely disheartening. IF i were to try to move forward, i'd likely have to work alone. i could hire someone as a contractor to help w/ circuit design, and unfortunately they wouldn't even have a benefit from revenue generated by selling products. i think this is really LAME, however the immediate issues w/ business discussions made it apparent that people would actually prefer to get a minimal payment w/ no long term benefits

it's so silly! however, i understand that no one aside from myself has a vision for bringing true polyphony to modular. naturally, no one wants to be the new Sequential Circuits of euro-rack w/ me

-alexa
flts
Bear in mind that the one person who contacted you represents only himself and not the whole community. However, I think the main thing with people preferring a contractor type deal with immediate payment is, that designing, prototyping, manufacturing and marketing / selling a product like this successfully is nowhere near trivial.

If the potential business partner making the proposition is not someone familiar to them or someone with a proven track record of designing and shipping projects of same type and scope (eg. a module manufacturer or at very least a professional engineer or designer on a related technical area), there's a high risk that the project will fail / never get to market, and in that case the expert has spent hundreds of hours of time for no compensation. I guess the composer/artist equivalent would be "I'm looking for someone to compose a soundtrack for this groundbreaking movie I'm planning to shoot, there will be no pay but when the movie is released you will get a share of the potential profits, I'm sure a lot of people will want to see it because the idea I have is so good".

I'm not saying this describes you, just that people are perhaps by now a bit cynical of "I have a very good idea for a module, I just need someone to flesh it out and develop it into a product on their own time so we can share profits" type propositions that one sees regularly. The people who have the skills for a task like that would need either a promise of payment to compensate for their time even in the worst case (eg. contractor type deal), or a lot of reassurance that the person making the proposition has the necessary qualifications and perseverance for the project to succeed, and/or already has a working prototype to show and some idea of the target market et cetera.

In a similar case, I would probably start with working on the project alone for a little while to get something usable to demonstrate to others, and then perhaps approach designers with a plan and see if someone would be convinced enough to put the working hours in. At that point, possibly expand a bit more on your technical skills / qualifications and background, aside the experience as a professional composer and user of electronic instruments, so potential partners would get an idea of what you can and can't do. I would imagine that if there a share of possible future profits but no guaranteed wage involved, people would be more interested if they knew the person approaching them is also eg. experienced in embedded software development and building audio electronics.

FWIW The idea of polyphony in modular (true and otherwise) does come up regularly in discussions, both as a wish from some part of users and in somewhat technical context. It is an interesting subject and no doubt there are cool things that could be implemented in that area. I don't think it's that nobody has an interest in or vision of the subject in general, rather than there's quite a bit of work from idea to reality and as mentioned previously in the thread, ideas alone are cheap - usually people need to be shown something concrete to be convinced that the specific idea is actually worth the while.

I hope this does not come across as insulting or disrespectful. It just does sound unfortunate that discussions on the subject have left you so disheartened that in a span of two days you not only no longer feel like pursuing the idea, even yourself as a hobby / potential future side business, but are throwing the whole idea of synth DIY away. It's unfortunate, but when trying to find someone to commit on a project and "money" and "business" come to play, things always get more difficult and tricky than simply discussing about ideas and developing them on spare time on a hobbyist level.
ashleym
axolotl wrote:
i understand that no one aside from myself has a vision for bringing true polyphony to modular. naturally, no one wants to be the new Sequential Circuits of euro-rack w/ me

-alexa


Analogue Systems poly controller

Deopfer poly controller

These things exist. I had this in my memory, there could be more. Is this what you meant?
axolotl
ashleym,

the standard polyphonic controller modules exist, sure. however, none of them streamlined or providing an entire synth in 1 module. what i was proposing was something like the Intellijel Atlantis in polyphonic form. aside from simply developing the synth i was making, the arduino portion could be adapted for other people to also make polyphonic creations for eurorack. it's much more immediately usable for other DIY people

i'm going out of my mind because i can't get the parts i need quickly enough! people i talk to seem totally out of tune w/ what i'm proposing. i don't believe that it's going to work out. my mind is WAY TOO FAST and so much is slowing down the project!!! everything has added up to "just quit!"

i feel like i'm pulling a publicity stunt without even having shown anything yet!!!

-alexa
Rex Coil 7
Alexa,

You've been a member for less than two weeks as I post this. And you expect people to bestow their trust in you without any time as a member to prove your own trustworthiness. Do you have any idea how many people come around claiming they've invented the next big thing only to have their claims proven to be false or oversold?

It seems like you're experiencing the angst one feels when expectations and reality don't end up meeting one another.

Best I can tell you're expecting someone to put full faith in your idea(s) and follow you without allowing them to question you or your ability to take an investment without pissing it away. You're asking a LOT of someone. Do you find that to be a realistic view? I don't.

I've had more ideas than I can recall. A half dozen 3 inch binders literally FILLED with midnight sketches and 3am flashes of inspiration. I've forgotten more "inventions" than most folks ever have in a lifetime. but that doesn't mean I would expect someone to sign an NDA and blindly trust my business instincts an people skills. Even though I've owned and operated TWO brick and mortar businesses, one that saw $500k monthly gross sales with 55% net profit margins.

You're going to have to develop trust with folks, trust in your ability to succeed, trust in your ability to handle failure, and trust in your willingness to make sure those around you are treated fairly. It goes far beyond simply having (what YOU feel is) a good idea.

It's like you're asking "marry me, but sign over all of your assets in this here prenup first ... c'mon, you can trust me!". A business venture involving someone with it is literally no different than a marriage. It won't ever work without trust, sacrifice, tolerance, willingness to forgive, and willingness to grow together.

The fact that you're throwing your arms in the air and proclaiming "I QUIT!" after just a couple of days says a lot about you. So no one is good enough, huh? You're not demonstrating a willingness to persevere ... you seem to be a quitter. If you're looking for a business partner you're going to have to fix that.

Understand that. And understand that what you're asking of someone to do is asking a LOT. It won't happen without establishing a reputation of trustworthiness, honesty, and ability to handle the highs along with the lows first.

Sorry I came across so roughly. You just seem to need a little tough love right now.

I wish you the best. I hope you find success in your idea. And more than that, I hope your idea is worth all of this emotional grief you're putting yourself through.

Best wishes ... and I mean that.

Brian.
Kent
It is also 100% not allowed to post threads and then delete the content. People put in their time to contribute to giving you an answer and opinion and you go about destroying the content and context for everyone else, out into the future, for your own self-centered reasons.

It is the best way to have your editing privileges removed and one of the best ways to demonstrate your character.

I’ll also add that I’ve worked in the audio industry for more than 25 years. ‘People with ideas but no means of execution’ are commonplace.
Those with means to execute probably think of ideas AS A PROFESSION and have quite likely rejected a given idea due to several market and other practical reasons.
We get offers to discuss ideas, post-NDA, all the time. We always kindly reject the offer. People are often (always) so close to or married to the idea of the success of their idea that; to reject the idea is the same as rejecting them personally. This is what you’ve displayed here.
Rex Coil 7
I've had a private discussion with the OP and we've worked out our differences like any two grown ass adults.

If I have offended anyone, I sincerely apologize for hurting anyone's feelings or coming across as insensitive. It was never my intention to do so. I take full responsibility for everything I've said. My best efforts to avoid hurting or upsetting anyone will be taken from here forward.

Sincerely, Brian.
Paranormal Patroler
Kent wrote:

We get offers to discuss ideas, post-NDA, all the time. We always kindly reject the offer. People are often (always) so close to or married to the idea of the success of their idea that; to reject the idea is the same as rejecting them personally. This is what you’ve displayed here.


As always, eloquently put Kent. I meant no disrespect to the OP and did not meant to say they show a lack of professionalism. But they do lack experience in the manufacturing world and it's rather obvious. I pitch my ideas freely and some have been realized, some haven't, ome remain in proto form, some will never see the light of day, some are already in use by a lot of users. I also beta test and do documentation for bunch of people here and in other industries. As you can imagine, especially with documentation, I run into the NDA area a lot.

I still think NDAs are for big companies. Manufacturers of this size need not worry about such things. The market is not for first implementation but for best execution.
axolotl
paranormal patroller,

i don't lack experience w/ manufacturing. i've done other electronics projects which shipped in large volumes. i lack experience in one aspect of this project only: circuit design. the previous electronics projects i've worked on were ROM based, and the PCBs were a standard format

so, essentially, i'm learning circuit design and haven't found a way to get clear answers on everything. the main reason i was trying to find a collaborator was to get around the slowness of building a "workshop" that is specific to the project, as well as having someone's opinion on the designs involved

really, i'm sort of confused about having gotten opinions of others where they think a design i present is actually good. my expectation here is any circuit i design will have large flaws

as stated in some of my other posts, i'm too fast for the pace of this project and absolutely lack patience on it. to feel the project is moving along fast enough, it'd require more than one person working on it, and even then it might still feel wrong. i'm evaluating this very based on feeling, and it just feels WRONG somehow. a team-mate would probably assist in the optimism factor, and it's severely lacking. that's maybe the biggest key component!

at this point, my main motivator is simply "i have to prove that anyone who criticizes me doesn't know me at all", and i hate having to fuel progress by leaning on negativity. infact, just by my assessment in this being primitive behaviour makes me want to avoid it. this is artificial motivation

-alexa
axolotl
apparently my editing ability was taken away? how bizarre

okay then i have to add an addendum to the above post! very disorganized

"the main reason i was trying to find a collaborator was to get around the slowness of building a 'workshop' that is specific to the project"

that's not to say that i wasn't constructing a proper workshop, just that it's been slow. my intention was to be the primary builder, and didn't even require that a collaborator also do building beyond the prototype stage

i do sort of have a "been there done that" feeling about this project, which is adding to the negativity score-card. i've done so much electronics building in the past, probably to an excess

-a
NV
In this particular niche market there is an intrinsic reality that things move glacially. There are aspects of module/synth design which can move at the pace you choose to set, but sourcing, prototyping, fabrication, assembly, distribution, etc all operate as marathons with weeks and months of waiting for components, boards, panels, revisions. This will be true even with the most ideal and experienced partner in your venture.

If you feel the pacing of the projects you're working on is a key point of anxiety, you may want to pursue something that doesn't rely on collaboration or designing and assembling hardware but instead functions off a pre-existing framework ready for coding. If turning this into a business is a goal, then acceptance of the inevitable delays and positivity towards the erratic nature of the market will be crucial to enjoying the process.
cycad73
Honestly, cloning yet another (somewhat) classic but already quite limited synth is hardly an idea worth protecting (Uli is probably already working on it, and will surely undercut your business model). But more to the point, it's just not very exciting. You'll have a lot more success attracting partners with a truly original synthesis idea. Actually, I'm very glad now that Uli is cornering the retro market as it frees the rest of us to do new things that are inspiring and exciting.
ashleym
axolotl wrote:



at this point, my main motivator is simply "i have to prove that anyone who criticizes me doesn't know me at all", and i hate having to fuel progress by leaning on negativity. infact, just by my assessment in this being primitive behaviour makes me want to avoid it. this is artificial motivation

-alexa


Would it help you slow down if we all said “we know you can do this and we think you’re great”?
shoegazer86
To be fair, criticism is the biggest motivator. If I come up with an idea, and then someone comes along and says "who asked for this" or "why do you want to do this?", my immediate response is to simply prove my reasoning with results.

It's a particularly tricky angle, polyphony in a modular system, mainly because polyphony is the LAST thing someone moves to a modular system to obtain. Modular compositions are generally textural in nature. So you aren't getting a lot of artists who truly want to play more than one of the same voice.

Now, the ability to play a modular with poly features would be a very big leap - and most of us can't even fathom how it will change the music created on such a system.

If you truly believe in an idea, and are in love with a design, head down, and just do it. If you can't find someone, keep looking. Like others have said, you're pretty new on this forum, as am I - long time lurker, first time poster as of a week ago. It took me 15 years to find someone crazy enough to tackle the projects with me, and Im happy for the journey alone.
axolotl
cycad,

i can agree w/ you that something "more original" may be more interesting to work on. i designed a digital additive synthesizer which functions like no other i've ever seen, however i'm just not very inspired by the sounds it produces. it sounded A LOT like the modal synthesis offered by Mutable products. it's not even feasible to re-create in the analogue domain, as it used 12 oscillators which were all finely tuned to the fourier series, but able to be shifted into other ratios using morphing parameters. SO, anyhow, i find that the classical subtractive synthesis method is more in line w/ what sounds the most usable

i also came up w/ a modal drum machine which has a semi-acoustic quality. the method employed was modal synthesis using "chebyshev" filters. these filters have a rippled shape to their curve, which creates a very strange and unique sound. i could re-create this in hardware, but first i wanted to work on the polyphonic synth. my polyphonic synth isn't just a Juno clone, but it's the easiest way to describe it. it's probably more like the Jupiter-4, which doesn't already have a bunch of clones in software or hardware form

ashley,

i don't know what would help! like i just said to cycad, i created synthesizers in software which were arrived at much more quickly than anything i can produce as hardware instruments. i don't know! one thing that makes analogue instruments more interesting than software is that the sound quality of specific traits is arrived at naturally rather than having to make a bunch of "amp simulators" and "zero-delay filter" DSP. not that i dislike those technologies

i'm finding that i cannot slow down my mind, and it's actually approached a new extreme of over-analysis which is painful. i was playing piano this morning, and my attention was attached to an awareness of my mind tracing over patterns which i use as a crutch, as well as getting into mental tangents when performing specific styles of improvisation. it made me feel my mind is in shackles around its limitations in how much i can simultaneously pay attention to or control. autism is REALLY awful sometimes!

-alexa
axolotl
*edit to the above post*

just for clarification, i don't mean software i've written, but rather using software to arrive at these results. actually, what's strange is you could say i've used software that's not designed to be used in these ways to arrive at the results

the digital additive synth described above was made using VCV rack modules designed by other people. 12 sine wave oscillators, and a ton of tuning mechanisms. the resulted patching required so many modules and connections that VCV rack was barely able to function. the drum machine described above was created using TAL U-NO-LX as a white noise impulse source, a "mallet" mechanism. then using the Renoise chebyshev filters in a serial format as the modal resonator

the above examples are not in a very usable format. TBH i got into instrument design as a result of the digital additive experiment. i originally set out to recreate this w/ analogue oscillators, and realized that it'd be very difficult to make it w/ VCO's. the other issue, like i said, the resulting sound was interesting yet not as easily usable as standard subtractive synthesis. it sounded much like a DX-7 meets physical modeling

my favourite subtractive synthesizers use the 1 oscillator + sub format that was used on the SH synthesizers, and Juno's

-alexa
tobb
axolotl wrote:


it's so silly! however, i understand that no one aside from myself has a vision for bringing true polyphony to modular. naturally, no one wants to be the new Sequential Circuits of euro-rack w/ me

-alexa


The only advice i can give is that if you want to be the new Sequential Circuit,well clone the P5 using the new available CEM chips,desktop version no KB and sell it at the lowest possible price

A polyphonic very basic four voice thing and in eurorack will never be a successful seller,NEVER

use your skills to make something non-eurorack/modular.
axolotl
tobb,

citing an example of an 80's company wasn't being presented as literal. my point was that MIDI and polyphony hasn't been made common in euro-rack. same as Sequential Circuits bringing a new type of polyphonic synthesizer and MIDI to a context where these things were less robustly implemented previous

i don't have an interest in cloning the Prophet 5. i've owned a Prophet 5 rev3.3, Jupiter-8, Prophet-600, Oberheim Xpander, MKS-80 rev5, Voyetra-8, Juno-60, Yamaha CS-60, and so on. the Juno-60 was by far my favourite of them all, because of the speed at which i could program it and my sound preference

the Prophet 5 doesn't have gain make-up in its' filter resonance feedback path. some people think the Roland Jupiter-4 is the ultimate poly. i haven't used one yet, however adding VCO's to a Juno-60 type architecture sounds like it could be VERY pleasing

i think you're completely wrong about the product never being successful, however the likelihood that i'll make it is lower after accumulating so many votes against it

i may move forward w/ developing the arduino portion of my project, which is basically a 4-voice polyphonic allocator, 4 VCO's, and 4 gate VCA's. once that materializes, i should at least be able to demo something. tho, my motivation is all based on reacting to negativity than anything positive

-alexa
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