MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Building another computer - Project is GO!
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next [all]
Author Building another computer - Project is GO!
artieTwelve
I agree with the above threads that say: Build your own PC. Honestly, a 10 year old can do it. There are a ton of video/websites,etc. to show you how.

But, if you just want something with a 4 core processor, a solid state drive and in the price range of $200 - $300, check out Microcenter. The link below will show you 12 (as of today) possibilities.

One more thing. Windows. When you buy a PC with Windows installed, you are usually getting an OEM version, which means it's locked to that machine. You can buy a new PC, but you can't move your copy of Windows to it. But if you buy/build a barebones PC, spend the $200 and get a full, movable copy of Windows. It will be linked to your Microsoft account and you can move it as much as you want. In the long run, it will save you money.

https://www.microcenter.com/search/search_results.aspx?Ntt=dell+deskto p&Ntk=all&sortby=match&N=40&myStore=true
Rex Coil 7
OFF TO THE RACES:

First off, thanks (like BIG thanks) to everyone that posted such valuable information and took the time to post links to sources and vendors. I've just finished making up a "WORD" file where I copy/pasted all of your replies, including the links. I'm using that infos to begin with this "modular computer project".

I'm about as committed to using Ableton as I can be at this point. I'll be using it well beneath it's limits, so I'm sure the information that has been provided here in this thread will serve me well as I begin actually spending money on this project.

I'm uncertain whether I'll just buy a ready-to-go computer to cannibalize it's components and then add (or change) things to suit my needs ... or if I'm going to just buy things piecemeal and put it together fitting what I see in my mind's eye. I'm thinking as I see what some of this stuff is going to cost me, those numbers will help me decide on the path I take.

*** Going with Live 9 (for now) simply because I already own it, and there is a SHIT TON of tutorial courses and videos about using it, along with the fact that there are years of experience within the Ableton forum covering Live 9's use. It simply makes sense for the time being. Besides, I can always uprate later.

*** Other than the programs within Live 9 used to create and process sound and MIDI, I reckon I won't be using any more than three, perhaps four VSTs at any given moment. I have hardware to get me most of where I need to go.

*** Mostly rhythm and drums stuff in Live 9 is what I'll be doing. There will be some live audio looping going on, but not extensive levels. Guitars, bass guitars, vintage Hammond, modular synth lead runs and melodies (non-MIDI stuff) ... that's the sort of thing live phrase audio looping will be dealing with. 95% external FX will be used for the audio looping stuff of non-MIDI instruments ... I'm a live performance guy and I still sortof think that way. So most likely very (very) little of sending in dry instruments, putting computer FX on them, then sending them back out for live monitoring of backing tracks. Pretty much anything going into the audio interface will already have FX applied to it when it goes in.

*** MIDI looping will also be happening. Again, two or three hardware synths going on outside of the box ... so yea.

*** Aside from "the live jam" thing, I'll also be producing the occasional song from time to time. So track recording and post-production stuff.

That's about all I can think of as far as "mission statement" is concerned. I hope that information helps anyone that replies from here on out.

Ok, so again BIG THANKIES to those that provided suggestions and links. I've got some money now, I've got a bit of a plan happening, and I'm ready to get started.

Gotta jet ...

pbear :( cookie?!?
mritenburg
Get a computer with a Thunderbolt 3 interface for audio. 40gbps through put cannot be beat for low latency work.
Rex Coil 7
mritenburg wrote:
Get a computer with a Thunderbolt 3 interface for audio. 40gbps through put cannot be beat for low latency work.
Never heard of Thunderbolt 3, but I'll certainly give it a look.

What does the "complies with" list look like?

In other words, is it adopted by a lot of interfaces?

Will I need something additional for MIDI I/O (I'll have about 3 or 4 external hardware MIDI synths)?

~by the way .. THANK YOU ... this kind of input is exactly what I'm needing ... sortof coaching me through the purchasing process~

thumbs up
mritenburg
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
mritenburg wrote:
Get a computer with a Thunderbolt 3 interface for audio. 40gbps through put cannot be beat for low latency work.
Never heard of Thunderbolt 3, but I'll certainly give it a look.

What does the "complies with" list look like?

In other words, is it adopted by a lot of interfaces?

Will I need something additional for MIDI I/O (I'll have about 3 or 4 external hardware MIDI synths)?

~by the way .. THANK YOU ... this kind of input is exactly what I'm needing ... sortof coaching me through the purchasing process~

:tu:


Thunderbolt 3 is just a type of input/output port that is similar to USB and Firewire, but faster than both. When you get ready to buy a motherboard or full computer, just make sure that it supports Thunderbolt 3.

The newest generation of high quality audio interfaces are made for Thunderbult 3. For instance, the new UAD Apollo interfaces are designed for Thunderbolt 3. The interfaces that you can connect to Thunderbolt 3 should support MIDI and Audio.
Rex Coil 7
Been watching "build a music computer" videos. One of the concepts presented is to use a somewhat smaller/fast SSD (like a 120gb or so) for running applications, and using like a 1TB internal HDD for mass storage (sample libraries, musical projects, and so on).

This one particular video "Building a music computer for $500" (posted in September of 2018) this fella bought a 120gb SSD and a 1TB Toshiba HDD for a total of $60 bucks for the pair, new. Trippy.

So is the smaller/faster SSD for programs and larger/slower HDD for mass storage a viable notion? For the HDD, no slower than 7,200 rpm with a connection no older than a SATA 3 (as low end specs).

mritenburg
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Been watching "build a music computer" videos. One of the concepts presented is to use a somewhat smaller/fast SSD (like a 120gb or so) for running applications, and using like a 1TB internal HDD for mass storage (sample libraries, musical projects, and so on).

This one particular video "Building a music computer for $500" (posted in September of 2018) this fella bought a 120gb SSD and a 1TB Toshiba HDD for a total of $60 bucks for the pair, new. Trippy.

So is the smaller/faster SSD for programs and larger/slower HDD for mass storage a viable notion? For the HDD, no slower than 7,200 rpm with a connection no older than a SATA 3 (as low end specs).

:75:


For just a little extra $$$ you can get SSD's for both drives. There are multiple benefits. One of the greatest benefits, which may not seem important now, but hard drives with spinning platters actually produce quite a bit of ambient noise. The whine from a 7200rpm drive is loud enough to affect your perception of your mix. Rather than spend all kinds of extra $$$ with treatments for your computer case trying to dampen the noise from spinning drive, just get 2x SSD's.
Rex Coil 7
mritenburg wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Been watching "build a music computer" videos. One of the concepts presented is to use a somewhat smaller/fast SSD (like a 120gb or so) for running applications, and using like a 1TB internal HDD for mass storage (sample libraries, musical projects, and so on).

This one particular video "Building a music computer for $500" (posted in September of 2018) this fella bought a 120gb SSD and a 1TB Toshiba HDD for a total of $60 bucks for the pair, new. Trippy.

So is the smaller/faster SSD for programs and larger/slower HDD for mass storage a viable notion? For the HDD, no slower than 7,200 rpm with a connection no older than a SATA 3 (as low end specs).



For just a little extra $$$ you can get SSD's for both drives. There are multiple benefits. One of the greatest benefits, which may not seem important now, but hard drives with spinning platters actually produce quite a bit of ambient noise. The whine from a 7200rpm drive is loud enough to affect your perception of your mix. Rather than spend all kinds of extra $$$ with treatments for your computer case trying to dampen the noise from spinning drive, just get 2x SSD's.
Makes total sense. I've added that notion to my notes.

So here are a few specs from my notes compiled from watching a few "build a music computer" type videos.

*** 8gb ram MINIMUM
... (I think I'd rather see 16gb ... even 32gb if I can afford it, otherwise I can start at 16gb and add more later)

*** Generally speaking (Fans) ... Larger fans rather than more smaller fans (larger ones spin slower so they're not as loud).

*** Generally speaking (USB PORTS) ... Lots of USB3 ports. They get used up by stuff.

*** CPU
= (about $115.00) Intel Core i3 8100 (it's the current 2018 CPU in it's Eighth generation) 3.6ghz - 4 core - no hyperthreading - the current generation of i3 CPUs are making people happy. It seems the older dual core i3 was sucky. These later generation 4 core i3 chips are doing fine, so it seems.

*** CPU Cooling = (about $27.00) Suggested as a medium range system is the Coolermaster Hyper 212 LED (if you can opt out of the LEDs you can save a little money). No hoses, fits right on the chip.

*** CPU FAN = (about $30.00) - Noctua NF-F12 ... "quiet and efficient, cools very well without making a lot of noise".

*** Motherboard = (about $50.00 when bundled with purchasing the CPU with it ) MSI B360M Pro-VDH (Micro ATX size) ... plenty of connections, plenty of RAM slots, plenty of storage connections.

*** SSD = ($23.00) Inland Professional 120GB - Probably ok ... there's plenty of others to look over.

*** MASS STORAGE = ($30.00) Toshiba P300 1TB HDD ... no slower than 7,200 rpm ... connection no older than a SATA 3 ... (as mentioned above by Member *mritenburg it's probably best to just go with several SSDs rather than going with any HDDs ... which makes a lot of sense to me.

*** PSU = ($30.00 or so) - 500 watts or so, no less than that however. With 500 watts there's enough power to handle a graphics card if I want to let the CPU deal with running programs rather than doing any of the video heavy lifting. Plenty of power to run a graphics card, more storage, more of everything if need be. When it comes to power, more is always better no matter if we're talking about a backup generator for your home, a modular synthesizer, or a "modular computer" (wink wink).

*** Generally speaking (why a graphics card is a good idea) - Quoting one of our members that replied in this thread .... "Even a fairly modest graphics card is fine, as long as it means that the graphics card is doing the heavy lifting instead of your CPU. As for a new monitor? Just check that the graphics card has the right connector for your monitor. I'm guessing you have a VGA monitor? Or DVI? You can easily verify this with the mark 1 eyeball."

*** REAR Chassis Fans = (about $15.00) - Corsair AF120 ... 120mm fans ... DC 3 pin ..

*** FRONT Chassis Fans = (about $40.00 for a 2-pak) - Corsair HL140 Mag Lev 140mm fans ... "PWM" fans ...

*** Thunderbolt 3 interface standard (instead of USB or Firewire).

*** Backup drives = RAID 10 (or other) - for backups (the RAID is a multi-drive "box" that rotates data around on the drives to keep the data safe).


So that's what I've taken in so far. I'll tell ya what, I understand a hell of a lot more than I did not more than just six or seven hours ago. This whole thing isn't just numbers on my computer screen anymore. I've got a much better grasp on what and where money needs to be spent, and what I need to prioritize as I design this "comp-inna-wood-box" modular computer now. I may not necessarily go with the exact brands/models of given pieces of gear mentioned here, but this gives us something to discuss and a set of "zero lines" for me to work from. All of this has helped me to understand what a lot of the specs of particular pieces mean and what the specifications' relevance is to my intended purpose for this project.

I'm picturing the enclosure (aka "wood box" ... that's the fancy technical term for the enclosure I'll be building for this) being about the same rough size as a 12U or 16U rack cabinet ... lay it down on it's "back", and make it about 12 inches "tall" as it sits on the shelf. So roughly 22" to 32" long, by 24" or so wide, and about a foot tall. Roughly about the same as my Euro rack cabinet seen here on it's back ....



... actually, that is a 16U which as I look at this picture it seems too large. So it may end up about like a 12U instead of this 16U. So perhaps more like my 12U utility cabinet I built for housing my 5U ribbon controllers modules ....



Then, assemble the works on the wooden "bottom" of the cab, so it's looks sortof like this (but inside of the box) ... and without the slick looking clear coolant lines and blinken lighty-lights.



Fully removable wood top. External automotive/motorcycle type air filters that are easily removed for cleaning or replacement (we have three cats). This won't be any more difficult than designing/building the cabinet I designed/built for my 5U modular.





Now we can talk about why any of these parts are good, or not good. The list provides me with something to compare various other suggestions with.


I'm jazzed!

Never maintain cash savings again ........ POW!
Entrainer
Rex Coil 7 wrote:

*** Generally speaking (why a graphics card is a good idea) - Quoting one of our members that replied in this thread .... "Even a fairly modest graphics card is fine, as long as it means that the graphics card is doing the heavy lifting instead of your CPU. As for a new monitor? Just check that the graphics card has the right connector for your monitor. I'm guessing you have a VGA monitor? Or DVI? You can easily verify this with the mark 1 eyeball."


NVidia 1050 would be my recommendation. It doubles the performance of 1030 for a modest price bump. The 1050 ti, 1060, etc offer increasingly diminishing returns. You don't need a lot of power or ram for strictly audio-related work. OTOH, who knows what the future will bring.

The RX series is less power efficient. Also, buying used is a risk due to the abnormal usage strains of cypto-mining.
Rex Coil 7
Entrainer wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:

*** Generally speaking (why a graphics card is a good idea) - Quoting one of our members that replied in this thread .... "Even a fairly modest graphics card is fine, as long as it means that the graphics card is doing the heavy lifting instead of your CPU. As for a new monitor? Just check that the graphics card has the right connector for your monitor. I'm guessing you have a VGA monitor? Or DVI? You can easily verify this with the mark 1 eyeball."


NVidia 1050 would be my recommendation. It doubles the performance of 1030 for a modest price bump. The 1050 ti, 1060, etc offer increasingly diminishing returns. You don't need a lot of power or ram for strictly audio-related work. OTOH, who knows what the future will bring.

The RX series is less power efficient. Also, buying used is a risk due to the abnormal usage strains of cypto-mining.
Cypto-mining? Is that possibly a typo of "crypto mining"?

If so, I had to look it up to understand the reference. I take it that it's some sort of game?

Anyhow, I'll add your suggestion to my notes. And "No used" .. got it. thumbs up


********************************************

Also - I renamed the thread ... it used to be "Buying another computer - PLEASE HELP!". The new name is less of a plea for help and more of a project preamble since I've decided to commit to moving ahead with building a new computer.

Computer GO!

********************************************
peripatitis
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Entrainer wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:

*** Generally speaking (why a graphics card is a good idea) - Quoting one of our members that replied in this thread .... "Even a fairly modest graphics card is fine, as long as it means that the graphics card is doing the heavy lifting instead of your CPU. As for a new monitor? Just check that the graphics card has the right connector for your monitor. I'm guessing you have a VGA monitor? Or DVI? You can easily verify this with the mark 1 eyeball."


NVidia 1050 would be my recommendation. It doubles the performance of 1030 for a modest price bump. The 1050 ti, 1060, etc offer increasingly diminishing returns. You don't need a lot of power or ram for strictly audio-related work. OTOH, who knows what the future will bring.

The RX series is less power efficient. Also, buying used is a risk due to the abnormal usage strains of cypto-mining.
Cypto-mining? Is that possibly a typo of "crypto mining"?

If so, I had to look it up to understand the reference. I take it that it's some sort of game?

Anyhow, I'll add your suggestion to my notes. And "No used" .. got it. thumbs up


********************************************

Also - I renamed the thread ... it used to be "Buying another computer - PLEASE HELP!". The new name is less of a plea for help and more of a project preamble since I've decided to commit to moving ahead with building a new computer.

Computer GO!

********************************************


Not a game. It's the way to create bitcoins if I am not wrong and apparently you need an advanced graphics card to do so and they drive the prices up..Or at least that is the rumor, which does have some logical gaps..
Rex Coil 7
peripatitis wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Entrainer wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:

*** Generally speaking (why a graphics card is a good idea) - Quoting one of our members that replied in this thread .... "Even a fairly modest graphics card is fine, as long as it means that the graphics card is doing the heavy lifting instead of your CPU. As for a new monitor? Just check that the graphics card has the right connector for your monitor. I'm guessing you have a VGA monitor? Or DVI? You can easily verify this with the mark 1 eyeball."


NVidia 1050 would be my recommendation. It doubles the performance of 1030 for a modest price bump. The 1050 ti, 1060, etc offer increasingly diminishing returns. You don't need a lot of power or ram for strictly audio-related work. OTOH, who knows what the future will bring.

The RX series is less power efficient. Also, buying used is a risk due to the abnormal usage strains of cypto-mining.
Cypto-mining? Is that possibly a typo of "crypto mining"?

If so, I had to look it up to understand the reference. I take it that it's some sort of game?

Anyhow, I'll add your suggestion to my notes. And "No used" .. got it. thumbs up


********************************************

Also - I renamed the thread ... it used to be "Buying another computer - PLEASE HELP!". The new name is less of a plea for help and more of a project preamble since I've decided to commit to moving ahead with building a new computer.

Computer GO!

********************************************


Not a game. It's the way to create bitcoins if I am not wrong and apparently you need an advanced graphics card to do so and they drive the prices up..Or at least that is the rumor, which does have some logical gaps..
Ah! I see. So yet another currency manipulation thing. A game. The "game" of "making money in our non-tangible wealth world" .. such that it is.

"Block chain technology" ... "Cryptocosm" ... hopefully one day those words will be within the mainstream lexicon ... wealth will be thought of and managed in an entirely new way that kills off the all-to-easily manipulated currency markets of the modern era. Those concepts promise to bring privacy into digital money transactions. It centers around a new architecture for the internet and the entire world's economy.

Ok then .... back to topic here ... it seems my very first set of choices needs to be:

1.) CPU ... which will determine the CPU socket (which will in-part determine motherboard choices).
2.) Motherboard ... outfitted with the proper CPU socket and connections (USB and so on).
3.) CPU cooling method(s) ... which are determined in part by which motherboard is used, which is determined by the CPU socket, which is determined by the CPU choice. From what I've learned so far, sometimes motherboard/CPU bundles are offered at fairly nice discounts. The beauty of building this on a boxed-in piece of wood is that motherboard form factor and size are 100% irrelevant ... that is SO cool!

So I'll start there. CPU, Motherboard, and CPU cooling. I figure taking these baby steps will make it simpler and less stressful to move forward with the construction of this new computer.

Off to do more research (which will surely generate more questions).

I will have questions.

Thanks!

Driving
Rex Coil 7
ASUS Motherboards? This same one is suggested over and over again in music computer build videos ... ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151 DDR4 DP HDMI DVI M.2 USB 3.1 Z370 ATX Motherboard with USB 3.1 ($170.00)

LINK = https://www.amazon.com/PRIME-LGA1151-Motherboard-Generation-Processors  /dp/B075RJHN2D/ref=as_li_ss_tl?rps=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1524786015&sr=8-1&ke ywords=asus+prime+z370-a&linkCode=sl1&tag=techoftomo-20&linkId=65951a3 c666cd72000bc31bf46bec6db

CPU? It seems to depend on who's doing the video, it goes between the Intel i3 8700 and the Intel i7 8700. There's a massive price difference between the two, the i3 is $125.00 ... the i7 is $340.00. If I understand all of this properly, either the i3 or the i7 will fit in the ASUS motherboard socket of the 'board suggested above. I suppose I could use the i3 for a while and if it's ass then uprate to the i7 later. Amazon carries both CPUs.....

Intel Core i7 8700 (quad core) ($339.00)

LINK = https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i7-8700-Desktop-Processor-BX80684i78700/d p/B07598HLB4/ref=as_li_ss_tl?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1524795563&sr=1-3&keywor ds=i7%2B8700&linkCode=sl1&tag=techoftomo-20&linkId=18ddc7d19343956aecb df5f1a1f0d608&th=1


Intel Core i3 8700 (quad core) ($124.89)

LINK = https://www.amazon.com/Intel-8th-Core-i3-8100-Processor/dp/B0759FTRZL? th=1

Amazon has a bundle offer for both the 'board and CPU, but the price is no different than buying them separately (I did the math).

Thunderbolt 3?: The ASUS motherboard is able to deal with Thunderbolt 3 compliant gear. The T-bolt 3 board is $80.00.

LINK = https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-Expansion-Card-Motherboards-ThunderboltEX/ dp/B01HDUVJ54/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1524795724&sr=8-1&keywords=a sus+thunderboltex+3&linkCode=sl1&tag=techoftomo-20&linkId=0551dee67069 e9cc9016db96dbc5885b

CPU cooling systems vary quite a bit: The Corsair brand seems to be well received by most folks. I'll choose that when I start designing the cabinet. 240mm fan (or equal) should do it. I'll probably go with a remote radiator and fan rather than one mounted directly on the chip. $40.00 on up.

PSU: 500 watts minimum, 850 watts better. $40.00 on up.

Ok, so there we go ... ... motherboard, CPU, cooler, and power supply. I'll start there. That will give me time to design and start building the box, while working out storage and RAM needs, chassis fans, and so on.

I'm probably going with the smaller/faster SSD as the "boot drive" and either an SSHD (Solid State Hybrid Hard Drive) or just an HDD as the mass storage drive. 7,200 rpm minimum, with a SATA connector.

Moving along pretty well here.

Happy.

thumbs up

EDIT: Hells bells ... I totally spaced figuring in a DVD/CD drive. Bah ... I'll work it out.

d'oh!
Rex Coil 7
FIRST PARTS ORDER COMPLETED - JUNK EN ROUTE!

$509.00 bought the following (every single item is brand new, and shipped free):

For starters, here's the motherboard (details beneath the image) ...



** $152.04 - ASUS Prime Z370-A Motherboard. This is one of the current "faves of the minute" among the computer geeks of this Earth. Until perhaps sometime later this afternoon since things change so quickly in the computing world.

** $129.99 - Intel i3-8100 Coffee Lake CPU (3.6ghz, 8th generation, 4 core, 4 thread, 65 watt, LGA 1151 socket). This one is a darling ... in some benchmark tests it actually outperforms the previous generation i5. Same socket between the 8th gen i3, 8th gen i5, and 8th gen i7 ... upgrades made easy!

** $34.47 - Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO with 120mm PWM fan (easily the most popular CPU-mounted liquid cooling system sold right now ... many millions and millions of positive reviews ... clearly I'm joking, but it has received buckets of happy).

** $125.00 - Corsair Vengance LPX 16gb (2x8gb) DDR4 DRAM 3,000mhz C15 memory kit. Yet another goodie from the "most popular" list. This is a 16gb "2x8" configuration ... the motherboard has 4 ram slots ... so I've 2 slots left to increase the RAM capacity when I have mo' munnay.

** $23.00 - San Disk 126gb SSD 2.5" internal storage drive. This is something I really pained over ... there are so many bloody options when it comes to selecting an "SSD boot drive" (so to speak). The ASUS motherboard has two M.2 sockets (one even has a large aluminum heat sink). But I didn't know what "M.2" was when I was selecting the SSD. I suppose it's no real crime that I didn't go with an M.2 type SSD (instead of the 2.5" SSD I selected). I mean, we're only talking about the $23.00 I spent on the San Disk 2.5" SSD here. I need to do more learnin' before I can know whether there is some distinct advantage going with M.2 board-mounted SSD over using a cable-connected SSD that will require some sort of mounting method in the wooden computer case I'm building. At first glance, it seems as though using an M.2 contributes to heat buildup on the motherboard, opposed to the free-swingin' cable connected 2.5" SSD. But who knows, right?

** $43.83 - Toshiba 1TB Internal 3.5" HDD, 7,200 RPM, P300 SATA3 connection, 64mb buffer, model number HDWD110. Yet another ~sure thing~ and favorite among audio processing computer builders. Combined with the SSD for programs and the main OS (Win 7 in my situation) this hard drive should do me right.


AUDIO INTERFACE (THE THUNDERBOLT DEBACLE):

Status; currently shit-canned. I've read FAR FAR FAR too many bitchings and complainings about getting the Thunderfart set-up to work. Add to the bugs/bitchings/FAILS, the cost of Thunderbolt compliant audio interfaces is fekking ridiculous.

After spending far too many hours of research on it all, it seems that USB3 (especially 3.1) actually runs with or even outruns many Thunderbolt ready interfaces. Some interfaces that have "THUNDERBOLT!" splattered all over their descriptions and cartons turn out to be only T-Bolt 2 compliant ... not T-Bolt 3. So for now I'm blowing off the Thunderpants stuff and going with a USB2 setup ....

** $106.99 - Behringer U-Phoria UMC404-HD USB2 audio/midio interface (paid for and on it's way) Yup .. you betchya .. I actually said Behringer. Yes, I said $106.99. I know, I know ... Behringer? Really? ... yup, Behringer. This particular interface by them has received absolute piles of positive embrace from the reviewers, users, critics, and skeptics alike. Good sound, stable, half dozen outs, USB2.

Priority "A" for me is to have this DAW up and on the fly without hitch-or-bitch as soon as I can (within reason). Dealing with possible issues is not what I need right off the bat. So I'm being "Mr. Plays-It-Safe" here.

Priority "B" is to have at least 4 analog 1/4" outputs ... 4 at the very least. I want to be able to run (let's say) drums out of one stereo pair, and (let's say) some sort of synth/VST/clips out of a totally different stereo pair of 1/4" analog outputs. This is so I can use the various FX/processors I have accumulated since 1977 on drums and synths spewing forth from the mouth of this Wunder'Puter I'm building. So four analog outputs is the absolute bare minimum. Six would be better, eight even better yet, 10,12,14,16 even better so.

That said, this Behringer U-Phoria UMC404-HD USB2 has "2 main outs" and 4 "playback" outputs. The main outs are actually a pair of 1/4" and a pair of XLR outs. The "playback" outs are 4 1/4" jacks, and 4 RCA jacks. I'm not sure how the DAW will "see" those outputs however. In any case, I'm fairly sure I'll have addressed my absolute minimum needs with this $107.00 interface.

THERE WE ARE, SO FAR ... well, kinda:

I have yet to select and buy a few things to have the basic framework of the system on hand, that said ....

POWER SUPPLY: I'm just going to go with a 500 watt fan cooled unit. Most of them I've looked over are less than/equal to $30.00 bucks.

DVD/CD DRIVE: Like most of this stuff, there is a monumental HEAP of models/makers to chose from. Like the power supply, the DVD/CD drives I've taken a gander at are less than/equal to about $30.00 bucks.

CHASSIS FANS: I'll pick those out as I begin the actual design phase of the cabinet. Most I've seen so far are quite cost effective ($10.00 to $30.00 per unit) all depending on size, mounting style, the amount of air it pushes expressed in Cubic Feet per Minute of airflow (aka "CFM"), and power type ("DC" or "PWM" ... "PWM" stands for "pulse width modulation" ... a method of controlling speed that essentially turns the power on and off very quickly at different rates of "on" versus "off" times ... the longer it's "on" the faster the wing spins. "DC" is a voltage level speed control method, higher voltage makes the wing spin faster). "PWM" and "DC" fans use power connections on the motherboard that are specific to either type. The motherboard also has a built-in software fan speed controller which the end/user may make changes with to control the fans' speeds.

GRAPHICS CARD: Not using one. Bing bang boom. The End. I'm not convinced that adding that much heat, fan noise, and money output will provide the sufficient performance increases needed to push the return on investment ratio over to my favor enough to justify it's use. I've never played a computer game once in my entire life. And I'm not a video producer or do heavy video editing either. The Intel 8th Gen i3 CPU has enough horsepower to provide good graphics while also doing it's primary job of audio processing without sweating a drop.

CONTROLLER: Going with PUSH 1 (and a little later adding the AKAI APC40 Mk2 ... the Push 1 and the APC40 Mk2 do very different things). I can haz one for $300.00 or less in great condition. I'm convinced this "DAW on the cheap" notion can work, so I'm sticking with the configuration of Win7, Live 9.77, Push 1, USB2 interface. I already own a new unregistered LEGAL copy of Win7, I already own Live 9.62 Standard (64 bit), and computer/interface/controller looks like it will run roughly under $1,000.00. Righteous. No need for Push2.


TIME:


These choices provide me with a working music computer. I would rather spend my time using it and learning while using (aka "OJT" ... "On the Job Training" as it was called when I was in the military). I mean, I could spend weeks (months?) researching things, comparing specs, reading reviews, watching videos, posting threads driving all of you goodfolk completely nuts with my ceaseless questions. OR! ... I could spend that same time actually using a minimal system, having fun, gaining experience, taking notes about what I need and don't need.

I prefer that second option ... by a long shot ... to be sure!!

So this way I'll have a working/operating system that I can learn Ableton with and learn what I actually need vs what I certainly do not need ... all the while enjoying the trip along the way.

SOME IDEAS:


This ASUS motherboard is very capable. It has three USB 3.1 port wired right to the CPU, and over a half dozen USB2 ports also wired straight to the CPU. Oh, and 1 USB3 "Type C" port also wired straight to the CPU. So there's that ... later when I have spent some time working with the DAW I'll be able to make informed choices about changes in interface selections.

ADAT ... I only just learned about how ADAT can be used to my advantage just yesterday! Member *panason is the one I credit for flipping that particular light switch and illuminating that technology so I may better see how to use it. Big Giant THANKS out to Member *panason for that. Here's what I learned ....

I may use a less costly, physically smaller audio interface with only two analog outputs (key word there = "analog") but also has ADAT I/O. I may use the ADAT I/O to connect the interface to another piece of gear that also has ADAT I/O and more analog outputs.

For instance, I have owned this Alesis DEQ830 digital 31 band 8 channel EQ for years. It is essentially EIGHT 31 band grahpic EQs, each one has it's own analog input and output. There are sixteen 1/4" jacks around back. It also has ADAT I/O ports. After checking the DEQ830's manual to verify this, I learned that I may connect the Alesis EQ to an audio interface that is equipped with ADAT I/O to essentially increase the analog I/O of the interface to 8+1 input, and 8+1 output. The DAW software will see all eighteen ins/outs as being part of the interface itself, and all of the collective I/O will be available to Ableton just as if it were one fancy pants interface with nine analog inputs and nine analog outputs.

FEKKIN COOL ASS!!
SlayerBadger!

What this means is I can take my time and locate an interface that complies with USB3 (or even USB3.1), and has ADAT I/O. I'll spend less hard-earned on a "stereo" interface, and more of my money can go towards the communication protocol rather than hardware I/O. My mind's eye sees a small 2x2 interface, USB3 compliant, with ADAT I/O ... that I'll lightpipe to the Alesis to increase the analog I/O with. OH! ... and also add eight channels of digital 31 band EQ to each one of those newly added channels to boot! That Alesis has 100 curve presets, and 100 program presets, all user! Each "program" may have up to eight separate EQ curves. The Alesis DEQ830 is a beast!

So that's what I have learned about these interfaces so far. The Behringer I've purchased will be a fine "for now" choice. And it was only $107.00 bucks, brand new from a Behringer authorized dealer.

This concludes this entry of the Modular Computer Project.
For those of you unfamiliar with how I do projects in the forum, you're lookin' at it. I refer to them as "photo journals" since I typically post several LARGE pictures along with lots of descriptive/technical text and many times there are links to equipment sources added as well. So this is what to expect of me in this project from here on out. It's precisely how I do "The Super" modular synth project thread as well, and have been for several years.

L8R SK8Rs ...


cookie?!?
Joe.
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
ASUS Prime Z370-A Motherboard. . . Same socket between the 8th gen i3, 8th gen i5, and 8th gen i7 ... upgrades made easy!


AND the same socket as 7th Gen Dead Banana

Bought an 8th Gen processor accidentally (i forgot to read the manual hihi ) and found it wouldn't start (or even post) on my Z270, Thought I'd killed it. I was sweating for ages trying to figure out what had gone wrong.

I ended up going for the Gigabyte Z370M, it has two slots for those M.2 harddrives, and they're awesome/cheap.
Rex Coil 7
Joe. wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
ASUS Prime Z370-A Motherboard. . . Same socket between the 8th gen i3, 8th gen i5, and 8th gen i7 ... upgrades made easy!


AND the same socket as 7th Gen Dead Banana

Bought an 8th Gen processor accidentally (i forgot to read the manual hihi ) and found it wouldn't start (or even post) on my Z270, Thought I'd killed it. I was sweating for ages trying to figure out what had gone wrong.

I ended up going for the Gigabyte Z370M, it has two slots for those M.2 harddrives, and they're awesome/cheap.
Yea, the ASUS board costs more but there's something about them over the Gigabytes that pushed me to the ASUS .. cannot for the life of me recall what it was though! It seems like it was something crucial ... dang it ... just can't remember what it was. The ASUS is sportin' two M.2 slots as well.

Good thing you didn't end up smokin' the Z270! lol very frustrating

While I was drafting the entry above, these parts landed (1TB HDD, CPU cooler, 2x8 16gb RAM sticks) ....

Rex Coil 7
Ha!! Speaking of motherboards ... while I was posting the reply just before this one, the motherboard showed up!

So that's four pieces all on the same day .. only two left (CPU and the SSD). The board came with a handful of SATA3 cables, some little stuffs, a few things, a few other things, some other little stuffs, and a manual. And of course it was shipped/packaged in an anti-static bag.



The little footie is my cat "CooCoo". She's a "polydactyl" tuxedo .. also known as a "Hemingway Cat" because the author "Hemingway" was known to collect polydactyl cats. If you look at her foot, you can see that her "thumb" is right there next to her other toes instead of being up near the "ankle" like most cats. All four of her feet look like this one. One of her nickames is "monkey feet".

The shadow of her head is seen on the box (see the ears?).

She approves of the new motherboard. hihi

Rex Coil 7
ARRIVED TODAY:

* San Disk 120gb SSD. I've never actually seen one before, amazing how small and simple they are on the outside.

STILL WAITING ON FROM FIRST ROUND OF PURCHASES:

* Behringer 6x6 Audio Interface.

* Intel i3-8100 Coffee Lake CPU.

BOUGHT LAST NIGHT AND EN ROUTE:

* Akai APC40 MkII controller ($252.00 new - eBay vendor "Perfect Circuit"). This is quite different than the Ableton Push units. The Akai APC40 MkII is more of an "orchestrator" ... or perhaps better said it's the "conductor" of Ableton. This is what is used to manage and control the actual mix of all of the various sounds ("clips") that are available to you after the "PLAY" button has been pushed. Think of "Push" as being like the keyboard controller, and "APC40MkII" as the desk mixer of Ableton. While certainly more complex than the way I've described them here, that description is a solid metaphor of those devices' function within the system.

* Ableton PUSH 1 ($187.00 used - Ebay private seller). Said short, the Push (either ver1 or ver2) is a lot like the Make Noise MATHS Euro module .... quite simply put, there is nothing else like it. Especially the Push 1 ... very solid, all metal construction ... great feeling pads ... just one hell of a live performance musical controller. I looked over the Push 2 as well, but frankly I don't see it being worth the money asked for those. It's ~roughly~ at least 2x (more like 3x) as costly as the Push 1. I just don't see 3x (or even 2x) the performance increase over the Push 1.

This little techno EDM-in' white boy wrings out the Push 1 pretty well ... submitted for your approval, give it up for "Mad Zach" .... SlayerBadger!




TOTAL COST FOR ALL OF THE "NO JUNK ALLOWED" COMPUTER HARDWARE SO FAR (drives, motherboard, CPU, ram, etc) .. INCLUDES BEHRINGER INTERFACE .. INCLUDES PUSH-1 .. INCLUDES AKAI APC40MkII .. (LIVE 9.62 Standard and Windows 7 are already purchased, I own legal/legit licenses for both) = $1,068.00 .... ABLETON BASED "MODULAR COMPUTER" ON THE CHEAP!

DECISIONS I'M STILL WRESTLING WITH AND RESEARCHING:

* Power Supply. I was going to just hustle up one of the (many!) "$25.00 PSUs" out there. But honestly, I know better than that. I'm that guy that will lecture you into the ground about selecting a solid PSU for your modular synth. And here I was, actually considering the use of a $25 PSU for this Sooper 'Pyooter? Nope. Not. So I'm going to take my time and do some due diligence to wisely select a reliable solid power supply. I need to be patient, learn the lexicon, decipher the specifications, and make an informed selection.

* CD/DVD readable/re-writable drive. Copy and paste what I just said about the power supply here. Same same.


Ok, so that's all for tonight. I'll post pics of the SSD along with the Poosh 1 and Akai APC40MkII when they arrive.


cookie?!?
adam
corsair rmi 650 is a nice one, there is a corsair for about $20 less that has a slightly noisier fan (but the fan will only come on over a certain load, like 50%)

i'm only half paying attention but was going to say someone i knew tried making his own case from lasercut ply and had a lot of problems with overheating & the pc shutting itself down (due to this), a premade case will have had the airflow sorted out (if it's been properly designed) which will mean better reliability
cretaceousear
Are you sure you need liquid cooling? - usually only needed for overclockers and game nuts. But Adam makes a good point about airflow. I'm guessing the mobo needs to be vertical so hot air can flow up and away , whereas a horizontal board might block any chimney effect. Liquid can leak...
Rex Coil 7
adam wrote:
corsair rmi 650 is a nice one, there is a corsair for about $20 less that has a slightly noisier fan (but the fan will only come on over a certain load, like 50%)

i'm only half paying attention but was going to say someone i knew tried making his own case from lasercut ply and had a lot of problems with overheating & the pc shutting itself down (due to this), a premade case will have had the airflow sorted out (if it's been properly designed) which will mean better reliability
I've designed and built racing vehicles (race trucks for off road racing, and motorcycles for desert racing and road racing). The trucks produced nearly one thousand horsepower and are tasked with racing at full power output for over twenty four hours in desert heat conditions. The motorcycles were outputting nearly two hundred horsepower with engine packages barely as large as 1 cubic foot, and capable of sustained speeds exceeding 165mph for two hours at a time. All were liquid cooled, both trucks and motorcycles. I did this stuff from 1976 to 2005.

I've also designed and built several welding torch cooling systems for TIG welding stations used in jet engine turbine fan manufacturing plants. Add to that, at least a hundred other cooling systems for welding processes for the GEO-Thermal power industry. I'm fully confident I'll be able to handle this.

However ...... Thanks for your show of concern, and it's also good that you mentioned this in the event that lesser experienced DIYers may want to take on this challenge having taken such an important aspect for granted. The case material has very little to do with thermal transfer when a liquid cooling system is employed. Especially when the overall size (meaning internal volume) is not limited. If designed properly, moving the air (and enough of it) will take care of the thermal transfer without any problems. It's mostly a matter of knowing how/where to direct the coolest air (and enough volume of it) and how/where to exhaust the hottest air. Case materials come into play when the case is so small that the system must rely on case materials to assist with thermal transfer, such as commercially produced computers for consumers or in situations where the physical size of the case must conform to some predetermined engineering and design spec.

This little music computer I am building has virtually no case design limits or case volume limits. I may make it as large and fekking ugly as I wish, without the marketing department or the accounting department telling me to do otherwise.


I'm making a box that is ~ROUGHLY~ 30 inches wide, 18 to 24 inches deep, and about a foot tall. That's enough internal volume to fit nearly three conventional computer cases. I have so much design freedom that I can adopt pretty much any solutions I see are needed. For instance, the intake fan will be at least 200mm, as will the exhaust fan (that is an EIGHT INCH fan!). Those are in addition to the fan on the CPU cooler. Just one of these 200mm fans moves over 134CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air, which is nearly three times as much as a single 140mm fan moves. Large fans move more air, and accomplish that with lower wing speeds (less RPM), and slower wing speeds mean much less noise, and less turbulence.

See how having a larger case begins to present advantages? Here's another one of those advantages....

.... The Power Supply is to be fully isolated within it's own little compartment with it's own intake/exhaust ports, and using a 120mm fan. The PSU compartment will draw it's own air in from outside, and it will exhaust it's heated air back outside. Zero heat from the power supply will intermingle with the main compartment. All of the fans will be ducted and mounted somewhat "internally" to reduce fan noise and air flow noises. The CPU fan speeds are managed by software that monitor the CPU's temp and controls the CPU cooler fan's speed. The heat removed from the CPU will be directed to the exhaust fan's ducting. The cool air the CPU fan needs will be directed from the intake fan's ducting, so the board and the CPU will be "washed over" with cool air, both under the board and above the board (the board will be mounted with an "air gap" about an inch or two above the bottom of the case where moving air will flow). Both surfaces of the main board will be exposed to cool, filtered, moving air. The air filters flow over 600 CFM and catch particulates as small as 20 microns. A single thumb screw holds the air filter in place, just like air filter seen on a hot rodded car.

cretaceousear wrote:
Are you sure you need liquid cooling? - usually only needed for overclockers and game nuts.
Ok, we need to make up our minds here. It's being said that this computer will run too hot. Then the need for a CPU cooler is being questioned. So which is it?

There have been tests done that show adding additional cooling to 4 core 3.6ghz CPUs running at just 30% can generate temps of up to 100+f degrees. Some of these tests are available on Tou Yube. The CPU will require a fan cooling any how, why not plug a simple convection flow liquid radiator on the fan? Can't see how it would hurt anything. $27.00 bucks.

cretaceousear wrote:
But Adam makes a good point about airflow. I'm guessing the mobo needs to be vertical so hot air can flow up and away , whereas a horizontal board might block any chimney effect
Only if there is not enough moving air flowing over both surfaces of the board. Enough air flowing across the board will FAR out perfrom "chimney effect" by a long shot. "Chimney effect" is just another way of saying "convection cooled". Using forced air cooling (eg; fans) is hills and valleys more efficient than convection cooling.

This stuff is all a matter of well thought through design. Using a custom designed wooden case removes the size limitations of the plastic/metal commercially available cases. Boards are mounted vertically because the manufacturers of the cases are bound and restricted by how large the case can be made. If the case is large enough, the board can be exposed to plenty of moving cool air. Besides, the "vertical board" logic falls flat when desktop style cases are brought into the conversation. I'm looking at one as I type, my own computer that I'm using right now sits flatly on the desk. It's been running nearly non-stop for over a year. The fan rarely ever runs.

cretaceousear wrote:
Liquid can leak...
It's not a large involved cooling system with hoses, a remote radiator, and multiple fans. It just bolts down on top of the CPU. Are there reports of these simple convection flow systems leaking? I am unaware of any, so I would appreciate links to such reports.

The particular CPU cooler I've obtained is easily the highest rated cooler on the market at present. Mind you, I'm not talking about gaming systems, I'm speaking of music production and other low-load uses. I've not seen a single complaint or mention of any leaking systems involving this cooler.

jsco
just saw this thread. i've built and spec'd out a lot of PCs in the past few years, and done a ridiculous amount of research into the cooling side of things. feel free to PM me if you run into any questions or problems.

first, you've got a decent set of components picked out there, no red flags. the 212 evo will be fine for that CPU. don't upgrade the fan, stock is fine. (the heat pipes and fins are the limiting factor on that cooler.) don't bother with a GPU, the intel onboard video is more than enough for your applications.

for a power supply, there are a lot of good brands, all of which will have a few faulty units. EVGA and corsair are popular and reliable, and you can get away with a very low power rating (450W is more than enough, and it's hard to find smaller.)

the place i'd upgrade is SSD. an nvme m.2 drive like a samsung 970 evo is more than 10x as fast as the drive you picked out, and you will feel that difference in system responsiveness.

cooling-wise, you're fine. just make sure you've got a fan pushing fresh air in and a place for it to escape, and orient the CPU cooler so that it keeps airflow vaguely all in a continuous path (e.g. in through the front, out through the back). GPUs are the biggest heat problem in modern PCs, and you don't have one. overclocked CPUs are the next biggest problem, and you don't have one. so don't worry at all (at least until the cats clog your air filters.)

are you sure you want to make a custom case? modern cases have a million tiny conveniences built into them, including cable management, airflow management, fan mount points, cleanable air filters, etc. i mean, they really are great. even if you really want a custom case, the easiest way would be to use a cheap off the shelf chassis and screw it into your own outer enclosure. here's a recommendation for a cheap, all-around-flexible case:
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/ZHmxFT/fractal-design-focus-g-black-a tx-mid-tower-case-fd-ca-focus-bk-w
...but there are many good options.

and finally, https://pcpartpicker.com/ is like the modulargrid of PC building. it makes everything so much nicer.
Rex Coil 7
OK SO YA LEARN SUMTHIN NEW EVERY DAY (if you're livin' right!):

Well well ... it seems that the Cooler Master 212 EVO is not a liquid cooling system after all. It's just copper pipes that make excellent mechanical contact with the surface of the CPU.

I've known for several decades that copper has outstanding thermal conductivity properties, better so than aluminum (copper has roughly twice the thermal conductivity of aluminum). So putting the machined-flat copper pieces into direct contact with the CPU (to "soak the heat") and then placing those pieces into an aluminum fin array to dissipate that heat from the copper makes tons of sense to me.

Also, this completely ends any arguments against it's use due to fear of "leaking" coolant on the motherboard. There's no coolant to leak! The Cooler Master 212 EVO is considered to be an "air cooled system" and not a liquid system.

So having learned this, I'm now even more at ease with having selected one for my use. It's not as "maybe" as just a few fins and a fan would be, and there is no chance of any coolant leaks happening. It's that perfect "momma bear" middle ground selection when it comes to adding CPU cooling enhancement for a computer tasked with audio processing and DAW mission statements.

The only "leak" issue I've been able to locate regarding the Cooler Master 212 EVO was one single report posted in some gamer's forum (over four years ago) about the fan's bearings blowing their guts. There's a small amount of bearing lubricant in the fan that leaked a little bit and left a small amount of (quoting here) "orange goop" on the fan's duct (aka "frame").

Apparently Cooler Master has released a new model that uses a different fan with 160,000 hours MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure). 160k hours is one hell of a long time. At 10 hours per day that comes to 16,000 days (over FORTY THREE YEARS!). The model I bought has a fan rated at a measly 40k hours MTBF .... that come to only about ELEVEN years at 10 hours per day. The new model does not cool any better, it's not any more quiet (or any louder), and it still costs under $40 bucks. Mine was $34.47 shipped.

So there we are, I thought I would pass that tidbit along.

NEXT ENTRY: WHY AM I DOING ALL OF THIS?

cookie?!?
jsco
Quote:
the Cooler Master 212 EVO is not a liquid cooling system after all. It's just copper pipes


weeeelllll to be pedantic... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

but yeah, the 212 evo is most certainly an air cooler, not a liquid cooler. nobody in the PC world calls heat pipes "liquid cooling". and the TSA has no problem with you flying with heat pipes, either. (but liquid coolers are generally a no-fly.)
Rex Coil 7
jsco wrote:
....are you sure you want to make a custom case?.
I was going to address this in my next entry .. but .. can open .. worms all over the place .. may as well do it now.

Answer? Yes. Completely positive.

Now ... why do I want to do this? Simple ... I've forgotten how many times something like the following has happened:

A.) New CPU is introduced. New CPU requires new CPU socket. New CPU socket requires new motherboard. New motherboard doesn't fit in existing case. Solution? Buy all new computer.

B.) Power supply in existing computer goes poop. New power supply required. Power supply used in existing system (the PSU that went bad) is no longer made. New power supplies do not fit in existing case. New case required. Existing motherboard is of the wrong configuration to fit in new case. Solution? Buy new computer.

C.) New computers described in ("A") and ("B") require new OS version. New OS version requires new interface drivers. New interface drivers are not available for existing interface. Solution? Buy new interface.

I am DONE with A, B, and friggin C!


Building my own wooden case means that using a different power supply is no more difficult than drilling a few new holes to accommodate mounting of a new power supply. Same goes for the motherboard if changing muthuhs is required for whatever reason. Same goes for storage solutions. On and on and on.

Look here .... just imagine something like these examples enclosed in a large wooden box with the cooling issues worked out as I described a few posts up.











It doesn't need to be pretty, it just needs to work. To me, this is no different than building my own 5U modular case. Having done so, it permitted me to design my own custom DIY aluminum bus bar power distribution system, my own modulation signal distribution methods, my own method of mounting/screwing the modules into the case rails, and so on.

This is the spirit of modular. It's the one thing that most of us modular synth users/builders have completely in common .... that "modular way of doing things" spirit.

seriously, i just don't get it

jsco wrote:
Quote:
the Cooler Master 212 EVO is not a liquid cooling system after all. It's just copper pipes


weeeelllll to be pedantic... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

but yeah, the 212 evo is most certainly an air cooler, not a liquid cooler. nobody in the PC world calls heat pipes "liquid cooling". and the TSA has no problem with you flying with heat pipes, either. (but liquid coolers are generally a no-fly.)
There's no concern of coolant leaking from it. Which at the end of the day is all that matters, pedantry be damned. lol lol lol razz Mr. Green cool

(By the way ... I'll address your other suggestions perhaps tomorrow ... and I want to thank you for participating, it's great to bounce this stuff off of the heads of others just as interested in such things! Thank you!).

thumbs up
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next [all]
Page 2 of 4
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group