MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

linux as your main studio OS
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Author linux as your main studio OS
lilakmonoke
so ive been on linux for a few years and just realized my favourite audio editing soft reaper finally has a native linux build.

now THERE IS NO REASON to bother with fucking win or os any more. free yourself from corporate slavery!

for those of you that want to try this here is my setup in a nutshell. all of this is professional quality and free or reasonably priced:

-----------------------------

hardware:

- high speed gaming pc with i5 processor. use a quality motherboard that runs mostly intel chips.

- geforce 750 ti graphics for 3d modelling and the occasional game.

- RME fireface 800 mk1 audio interface via firewire, these can be had very reasonably and sport 2x adat so you can hook up lots of channel extensions like es3, ada8000. its fully supportet via ffado including a totalmix like mixermatrix. make sure you get an intel chipset in your firewire card.

- maudio midisport usb, there is almost zero midi jitter or lag via usb, that alone is worth the switch!

-----------------------------

os:

- current Xubuntu 18 with XFCE, super fast and simple desktop system

- on top of that install the KXstudio audio applications

-----------------------------

soft:

- KXstudio Carla is my main patch bay. it a modular jack client that can run win vsts. patch anything to anything!

- Pure Data (purr-data) for sequencing and dsp experiments

- Reaper for audio recording, editing, mixing.

- Bitwig studio for fancy stuff. its the better ableton live!

- harrison mixbus for analog style mixing.

- renoise for oldschool tracker stuff, produce like venetian snares ;.)

- a lot of plugins now come with native linux support or can be run in wine no problem:

- all of UHE software, Diva etc. is native
- valhalla reverb plugins run great in wine
- here is a good list: http://forum.renoise.com/index.php/topic/49169-list-of-freeware-and-co mmercial-linux-vsti/

-----------------------------

you can do the whole setup in 1 hour. then you need to tweak stuff for a week and you are done. if you dont update this will run stable for the next decades :-)

feel free to ask about details ...
x2mirko
I've tried doing this and failed so many times over the last 15 years or so that I'm now hesitant to try again. There's a few things that I'd still be missing, mainly Max (do you happen to have a copy and have you tried to run it with wine?) and a few plugins (like keyscape, aalto, kaivo, but these wouldn't be so important). But over all else, the main thing that stopped me from switching was that there were always troubles with audio configuration (jack is fine, but pulse audio seems to me like it was originally conceived as an instrument of torture and they only later discovered that it could be used to do audio under linux) and using vsts with wine was usually not a good experience. If the latter has changed (it well might have, my last attempt was like 4 years ago, when I had more time to fiddle with linux), I may actually try again.

I certainly don't need windows for anything else and it would be nice to be rid of it. Just need to find out how the driver support is looking for the RME RayDAT... doesn't look great, but it may work with ALSA.
lilakmonoke
Quote:
I've tried doing this and failed so many times over the last 15 years or so that I'm now hesitant to try again.


thats exactly why i made this post. the game has totally changed over the last few years. here is how you have to approach it mentally: dont expect your current setup to work on linux. instead swap out hard and software and you will find a totally amazing new playground. a lot of very cool companies now develop for linux.

- ie. i was fed up with ableton live so i reformatted my harddrive, installed linux and started to write my own sequencing setup in pure data. thats when my music started to take off and now my stuff sounds totally different from anybody else.

- ie. i built a new highspeed pc that is fully hardware compatible with linux. i bought a high end motherboard and used parts, i think it was like 500e alltogether. thats the price of two modules ;-)

- ie. if there is a problem swap rme raydat for rme fireface 800 which is fully supported.

- ie. no i havent tried max but its part of the evil ableton empire. use pure data instead of max, almost the same but free. the new fork purr-data is written in java and is a totally new interface with great graphics.

Quote:
there were always troubles with audio configuration


thats all taken care of with two bridges in the KXstudio configuration. my setup is ALSA -> Pulseaudio -> jack -> rme fireface. this works without any problems for all applications. its a bit of a hack but i think linux will come up with a simplified audio architecture in the future.
Panason
Interesting. I'm a fan of Valhalla and u-He and Bitwig is what I plan to be using as soon as I'm done with the last project I'm working on in Live.

Quote:
- valhalla reverb plugins run great in wine


Doesn't running wine compromise MIDI timing or audio latency/ CPU load?

Is it possible to add Firewire to a PC laptop?
lilakmonoke
that depends on the laptop and if you get a firewire card for it. i tried this for a while years ago but i wouldnt recommend it at all. better to go with usb, ie. the fireface uc which i think is also supported by now.

BUT a real PC is a much better solution if you want a professional setup because you can easily add cards etc. and its cheap.

Quote:
Doesn't running wine compromise MIDI timing or audio latency/ CPU load?


not at all if you run a fast computer and an efficient desktop like XFCE. i run gazillion things parallel and ive not even come close to maxing out my i5 and that is already a few years old.

and like i wrote my midi timing is ultraprecise, something that win users can only dream about. check out this new no bullshit daw by tracktion called wave. it runs native in linux like all their applications and thats all you will ever need if you mainly record hardware:


.
sp1200
I’ve always liked the idea of moving over to Linux but in practice it’s not worked out so well. I’m down to using a handful of plugins which are mostly supported in Linux now.

Thanks for the info in the first post. Maybe I’ll try it again.
adam
some people are running win10 in a vm and getting good performance in games etc, so daws might be ok, might be a question of tracking in a native app then moving over to a daw for effects, mixing etc
lilakmonoke
Quote:
some people are running win10 in a vm


interesting, ive never tried that, but in general my philosophy is if it doesnt run in linux i dont need it.

the same is true for plugins, the best move ive ever done for my music is use NO daw / vsts at all and program everything yourself. thats when you make progress because you have to figure everything out for yourself.

here is another great FREE linux application by the good folks at harrison. its an all in one professional mastering box with surgical eq, 3-band compression and limiter. this is permanently plugged in at the end of my dsp chain, if i like something im hearing i disengage the bypass, tweak it and record. DONE.

here is something i did live last night with it, this is three parallel microphones recording electric guitar for my shoegazer project: https://clyp.it/od2hhqya


witchbutter
The plugin ecosystem is what really holds me back from doing this. I've been OSX since 10.12 but it definitely seems that Apple doesn't care much about MacOS anymore except as a vehicle to sell more shit on the Apple store.

Have you tried to port any Windows VSTs to linux? This is the thing that really holds me back. I have the full suite Arturia, Max/MSP and a couple other plugins I could not ever let go.
lilakmonoke
Quote:
The plugin ecosystem is what really holds me back from doing this.


there is a perfected method behind this to ensure you are being hooked to a commercial company:

- make you pay large amounts of money. i think i paid around 1500.- to ableton with all the upgrades. result: "i cant switch to something else because i paid so much money for it." in contrast reaper which is a much better audio editor is 60.- once and all upgrades are free.

- exclusive features like max for live result in "in cant switch to x because it doesnt have max for live" thats the reason why ableton bought cycling, to make sure nobody else can include it.

the only thing that saves us from this is that there are still smart folks around that are actively opposed to intellectual slavery. one of them is miller puckette who is a dsp scientist and the inventor of max. he reprogrammed the whole thing, called it pure data and made sure it cannot be commercialized.

i can assure you anything can be replaced and if you do you will learn something new ;-)

.
snakejaw
[quote="lilakmonoke"]
Quote:

thats all taken care of with two bridges in the KXstudio configuration. my setup is ALSA -> Pulseaudio -> jack -> rme fireface. this works without any problems for all applications. its a bit of a hack but i think linux will come up with a simplified audio architecture in the future.


I've "heard" Pulseaudio isn't suitable for audio creation. (Can't remember where.) Could you run Alsa-> Jack, and not use Pulseaudio?
lilakmonoke
alsa is the old win standard, pulseaudio ist a consumer layer mainly for multi channel surround audio and jack is an open modular system. none of them have disadvantages in terms of quality ...

right now alsa gets linked to pulseaudio and pulseaudio is linked into jack because some applications will try to attach to pulse or alsa. thats how it works best for me but like anything in linux you can set it up differently.

at the moment im trying to figure out how to add a second firewire audio interface to the setup. here pulseaudio comes in handy because it has lots of auxiliary channels that i can connect with the new channels of the second interface
a100user
This is interesting.

I have for years, since the Atari, Apple G3, iMac etc run Logic and it's predecessors and I'm happy enough and have a lot of investment in soft synths etc

However I still have my old iMac (iMac 24" 2.4Ghz dual core, 4Gb RAM) as nobody wants old stuff these days and I was wondering if I could use this to experiment with a Linux recording setup (afterall OSX is Unix based). Would it be powerful enough?

Thanks
Waz
[quote="lilakmonoke"]
Quote:

i can assure you anything can be replaced and if you do you will learn something new ;-)


I understand the passion and politics behind your embrace of Linux, but the fact is, Linux plugins sound terrible. Many people and professional recording studios are "slaves" to these companies because their products sound superior to projects worked on in someone's spare time. And it's really difficult to get windows/OSX plugins up and running in Linux through emulation. This is coming from someone who fully supports Linux and works in the music industry.

With that said, I am excited at how fast Linux has been adopted into the audio world in the past 5 years. I am still unable to do a few things that I would need to be able to do to keep my profession afloat, so I still dual boot. The 2nd biggest problem (plugins is the biggest problem and is likely the reason Linux Audio isn't being adopted at a faster pace) is audio interfaces. Many companies are switching to Thunderbolt or other formats with minimal latency. Support is hit or miss and totally dependant on the device. They offer USB options, but you sacrifice a lot with USB. Which brings me to the third issue, Latency. I don't know why or how, but my audio interface actually has much more latency in Linux than windows. This is likely due to generic drivers. If I wanted to eliminate latency with a new audio interface, It'd be difficult to find one with good converters (not home studio grade), Thunderbolt or digilink support in Linux, and the ability to record above 44.1 (something I haven't been able to successfully do with many audio interfaces in Linux.)

There are a ton more issues, but they're nitpicky. I can't complain about how fast it's evolving now. A few years ago I'd say it'd be a pipe dream where we are at now. It works in home studios and smaller project studios. Does anyone know how Dante is coming along in Linux?
adam
a100user wrote:
This is interesting.

I have for years, since the Atari, Apple G3, iMac etc run Logic and it's predecessors and I'm happy enough and have a lot of investment in soft synths etc

However I still have my old iMac (iMac 24" 2.4Ghz dual core, 4Gb RAM) as nobody wants old stuff these days and I was wondering if I could use this to experiment with a Linux recording setup (afterall OSX is Unix based). Would it be powerful enough?

Thanks


i think that'd be ok, ubuntu studio is a good distro, you can install it on a usb drive, or dvd and try it out without affecting your osx installation
commodorejohn
Waz wrote:
I don't know why or how, but my audio interface actually has much more latency in Linux than windows.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's a combination of PulseAudio (the most broken and janky of all the Linux sound systems - it doesn't even use interrupt-based servicing by default - and unfortunately also the most ubiquitous and hard to get rid of) and the kernel in general not being designed or tuned for real-time response. Someone could do a lot of people a big favor by developing a distro tuned for this sort of thing.

(Actually, it'd be interesting to try comparing one of the microkernel-based *nixen - a.k.a. *BSD - on this front, but their overall support for sound systems is rather more primitive last I looked. But given that OSX is also a BSD derivative based on another microkernel design and is generally well-regarded for audio work, one must wonder.)
a100user
adam wrote:
a100user wrote:
This is interesting.

I have for years, since the Atari, Apple G3, iMac etc run Logic and it's predecessors and I'm happy enough and have a lot of investment in soft synths etc

However I still have my old iMac (iMac 24" 2.4Ghz dual core, 4Gb RAM) as nobody wants old stuff these days and I was wondering if I could use this to experiment with a Linux recording setup (afterall OSX is Unix based). Would it be powerful enough?

Thanks


i think that'd be ok, ubuntu studio is a good distro, you can install it on a usb drive, or dvd and try it out without affecting your osx installation


Cool, thanks I’ll look into that
flts
commodorejohn wrote:
and the kernel in general not being designed or tuned for real-time response. Someone could do a lot of people a big favor by developing a distro tuned for this sort of thing.


I think Ubuntu Studio is sort of what you're asking for. I'm not sure what it comes configured with default but the preempt- and lowlatency-kernels are what you're aiming at:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/RealTimeKernel

(You also have two convenient options for hard realtime kernels, but I'm not sure if that's really necessary unless you're actually developing an embedded hardware product on top of Linux kernel)

Also, if your audio interface performs worse than on Windows or Mac OS, it might be that the official drivers for that particular interface are just better on those operating systems than Linux. I suppose it doesn't need to be any more complex than that.

As an aside, I think the hardcore ideological part ("corporate slavery", "evil ableton empire", "intellectual slavery" etc.) of some of the posts means I'll try not to contribute on the discussion further. However, I'll concur that if you're into designing / building stuff yourself, experimental music etc. then Linux-based system with the right components would be a lot of fun. Or if you're looking for a solid multitrack recording and editing setup without needing a lot of fancy VST plugins, and have enough IT chops to build and configure a setup to your liking, then potentially you can get very solid and low-latency no bullshit system for that.
commodorejohn
I know there's a guy in my town who's all-Linux for his recording studio; I should pick his brain sometime.
andybizarre
Quote:
I certainly don't need windows for anything else and it would be nice to be rid of it. Just need to find out how the driver support is looking for the RME RayDAT... doesn't look great, but it may work with ALSA.


Are there known issues with RME PCIe cards with Linux? I was under the impression that the whole Hammerfall family was fully supported, except Totalmix, of course. I'm asking because I also feel the time has finally come to move over. Can someone clearify?

Thanks & cheers
lilakmonoke
Quote:
but the fact is, Linux plugins sound terrible.


i dont know which ones you are refering to but many cutting edge developers now use JUCE and then the linux version will sound exactly like all the other versions. but i understand that if you are running a professional studio you need to be compatible with "the music industy" ...

Quote:
my audio interface actually has much more latency in Linux than windows.


my fireface 800 runs at 48 khz with 256 samples buffer so thats a block latency of 5,3 ms. i dont know what the fastest apple interfaces can do now but that could certainly be improved.

if you want real realtime get a bela and program your application in pure data. it runs a custom audio stack and has a latency of 0.1 ms! underneath is linux btw.

http://bela.io/

Quote:
the hardcore ideological part ("corporate slavery", "evil ableton empire", "intellectual slavery" etc.)


i dont feel hardcore at all, im just happy to be INDEPENDENT and that is the whole point of this post. its a miracle that something as successful as linux is still able to maintain that spirit. it needs the support of a lot of artists to stay that way and not be corrupted by business interests in the long run like everything else. anybody still remembers how cool apple started off in the 80s? wheels for the mind? ... look at them now.

.
x2mirko
andybizarre wrote:
Quote:
I certainly don't need windows for anything else and it would be nice to be rid of it. Just need to find out how the driver support is looking for the RME RayDAT... doesn't look great, but it may work with ALSA.


Are there known issues with RME PCIe cards with Linux? I was under the impression that the whole Hammerfall family was fully supported, except Totalmix, of course. I'm asking because I also feel the time has finally come to move over. Can someone clearify?

Thanks & cheers


The old PCI series (Hammerfall HDSP) had very good linux driver support, including totalmix - rme made that available for linux. That's what I used the last times I tried to switch.

Now I have a RayDAT and since switching haven't tried linux audio personally, but when looking around (triggered by this thread) I found rather mixed opinions online about how well it worked. It looked to me like there were a lot more problems than with the old cards. But again, I haven't tried it myself, so it may well all be fine and the posts I found may be old posts.

flts wrote:
As an aside, I think the hardcore ideological part ("corporate slavery", "evil ableton empire", "intellectual slavery" etc.) of some of the posts means I'll try not to contribute on the discussion further.


same here.
flts
Quote:
i dont feel hardcore at all, im just happy to be INDEPENDENT and that is the whole point of this post. its a miracle that something as successful as linux is still able to maintain that spirit. it needs the support of a lot of artists to stay that way and not be corrupted by business interests in the long run like everything else. anybody still remembers how cool apple started off in the 80s? wheels for the mind? ... look at them now.


Perhaps my comment was somewhat badly worded - I'm talking more about the rhetoric.

I'm glad you're happy about feeling independent, use a lot of open source software from operating system up, and like the route of doing things from more ground up yourself. It's a good path I wish as many people as possible would be interested in taking. It's not for everyone as different people have different focus with eg. music making, but it feels Linux is getting better and better for that task year by year in general (I use it for a lot of other things, just not for music yet).

At the same time, being happy is a bit different from calling using or developing other operating systems or commercial pieces of audio software "intellectual slavery" or "corporate slavery", and claiming a 200 person company operating in what is a relatively niche market as "evil empire" who bought another niche company "to make sure nobody else can include" their tech in their products feels kind of tiresome.

It's a bit like that "analog sounds SOOO much better than digital" thing - I'm happy people find that analog synths they use have a voice of their own and that voice is something they like a lot, but usually that "happiness" comes at the expense of needing to underline how much something else sucks at every possible opportunity. Which is, again, a bit boring.

(Btw. Reaper is probably so cheap and sustainably developed, because it's made by a millionaire who is so good at what he does he doesn't need to pay wages to a developer team... because he has a developer team average size of one to two people including himself - that's very cool, but not everybody can do it)
witchbutter
lilakmonoke wrote:
the only thing that saves us from this is that there are still smart folks around that are actively opposed to intellectual slavery. one of them is miller puckette who is a dsp scientist and the inventor of max. he reprogrammed the whole thing, called it pure data and made sure it cannot be commercialized.


I am indeed trying to learn PureData if I could make more time. But I also disagree that paying for software is somehow endorsing intellectual slavery. On linux I would still use Bitwig which is a great DAW and worth the subscription costs. It's true that some predatory companies like Adobe and Autodesk soak people essentially because they have a pile of patents in their software. Really the issue in software is that copyright and patents are so ass backwards.

Remember also that the people who develop the linux kernel and all the major distributions have to get paid too, and the reason they are so successful is because of donations from many major vendors.

lilakmonoke wrote:
i can assure you anything can be replaced and if you do you will learn something new ;-)


I have worked with linux servers on a daily basis for 15 years. The linux desktop has certainly evolved and periodically I set up a PC with the latest Ubuntu OS and KX studio, but the learning curve is seriously intimidating. One only has so much time per day.
matthewjuran
GNOME 3 is an improvement.
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
Page 1 of 3
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group