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Mixing desk help!
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Production Techniques  
Author Mixing desk help!
sillyquestions?
Hi, im trying to solve an issue im having at the moment...

Basically, im having a jam, got my pedals going through an AUX and then sending that to my channels on my desk. All is well... It's just when I go to record everything with effects on, my desk which is the 12MTK records everything to the one channel on Ableton (13/14) and then all my drums, synths, pads, you name it are all recorded to the one channel on my DAW. It's impossible to post EQ and everything ends up super muddy!

My question lies here.. Is there a way to which I can record the WET FX through AUX into my DAW and be able to assign them each there own channel (DAW). Doesnt have to be this desk, if someone can reccomend one that can do it great!

Also, whatever I have playing back through Ableton will record back into ableton too! Surely theres a way where I can play my sounds back from Ableton through my desk and still be able to record instruments from my desk into my DAW without it recording what's already recorded?

Hmmmm! it's a mystery and I want to efffin solve it. Surely theres a way.
Koekepan
There are a few approaches. One would be a mixer with subchannels that can be routed to a particular set of outputs. Or you could use something like the Zoom Livetrak or the Tascam Model 24, that will record all the channels individually. Or you could use an audio interface that gives your DAW all the stems individually.

Does any one of these ideas work?
indifference point
I record with my 12MTK all the time into ableton.

Various euro/synth outs going into channels 1-8.
Aux 1 return into 9/10.

Each channel in ableton is recording each MTK channels 1-10.
Ableton master out going to 11/12 for playback.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your issue, you're only recording master MTK channels 13/14 which will always record everything.

MTK into ableton will always record pre fader/eq.
naturligfunktion
Great question, I also sometimes struggle with the 12MTK.

I agree with the post above; you should record every channel seperately. You can do this simultaneously with the recording of channel 13/14. Just remember to set ex. in channel 1 and then ex out channel 1 on each channel that you intend to record.

For example, I record sort of like this:

Channel 1: Main sequence from my modular
Channel 2: Noise from the modular, usually act as a really funky hihat
Channel 3: Kick from drum machine
Channel 4: Precussion from drum machine
Channel 5: A slightly broken moog
Channel 6: Delay (from aux 2)
Channel 7/8: Turntables
Channel 9/10: Reverb (from aux 1)

Channel 11/12 is at the moment not used in the recording process.

When I record i have not USB RTN pushed down. That I do first when I start to arrange the tracks after the recording (e.g. during this time 11/12 usually have both the reverb and delay- recordings, freeing up those tracks).

I do not, however, agree that ableton record prefader. Yes if you record channel 13/14, but no if you record each channel individually. I experiment currently to record jams, arrange them a bit, eq and what now, and then record a dub of the whole thing.

Anyways, hope that this was helpful
indifference point
naturligfunktion wrote:

I do not, however, agree that ableton record prefader. Yes if you record channel 13/14, but no if you record each channel individually. I experiment currently to record jams, arrange them a bit, eq and what now, and then record a dub of the whole thing.


Maybe we're saying the same thing but to clarify, you cannot record the individual channels post eq. You will hear the difference in your monitors but ableton won't be recording the eq. From the manual:

Console channels always send their post-gain, pre-EQ signal to their respective USB channel to be picked up and recorded by the PC/MAC Via USB

In fact here's a little tip if it's not obvious: when setting recording levels for each individual channel, I turn all the faders down because they don't do anything when using usb recording. The only thing that matters are the gain knobs at the top. I monitor everything on my Ableton master channel going into MTK 11/12 so I hear exactly the levels that I'm recording. Also this gets rid of the monitoring latency issues if you're only monitoring pre-ableton.

In other words, if you are using usb recording on your MTK, you have to look at it for what it is: a huge 12 channel audio interface with individual gains. Nothing else. If you want to use/record the fader and eq settings you will have to use it like a standard mixer and go out the main audio outs.


______________________________
sillyquestions?
Koekepan wrote:
There are a few approaches. One would be a mixer with subchannels that can be routed to a particular set of outputs. Or you could use something like the Zoom Livetrak or the Tascam Model 24, that will record all the channels individually. Or you could use an audio interface that gives your DAW all the stems individually.

Does any one of these ideas work?


Im not sure if they work yet man but thanks very much for the reply. All im really wanting to achieve is a nice workflow where I can record wet FX through AUX into Ableton with no fuss and everything be assigned accordingly to Ableton. The only way I can seem to have all my channels recorded into Ableton seperate is by having them dry! Its nae effin use to me!
sillyquestions?
indifference point wrote:
I record with my 12MTK all the time into ableton.

Various euro/synth outs going into channels 1-8.
Aux 1 return into 9/10.

Each channel in ableton is recording each MTK channels 1-10.
Ableton master out going to 11/12 for playback.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your issue, you're only recording master MTK channels 13/14 which will always record everything.

MTK into ableton will always record pre fader/eq.


Not really sure I understand here man but I guess it's because Im not really down with the lingo. Are you saying that you can record all ur FX wet from AUX into Ableton and still have it all assigned to seperate channels? Not just 13/14? we're not worthy
sillyquestions?
naturligfunktion wrote:
Great question, I also sometimes struggle with the 12MTK.

I agree with the post above; you should record every channel seperately. You can do this simultaneously with the recording of channel 13/14. Just remember to set ex. in channel 1 and then ex out channel 1 on each channel that you intend to record.

For example, I record sort of like this:

Channel 1: Main sequence from my modular
Channel 2: Noise from the modular, usually act as a really funky hihat
Channel 3: Kick from drum machine
Channel 4: Precussion from drum machine
Channel 5: A slightly broken moog
Channel 6: Delay (from aux 2)
Channel 7/8: Turntables
Channel 9/10: Reverb (from aux 1)

Channel 11/12 is at the moment not used in the recording process.

When I record i have not USB RTN pushed down. That I do first when I start to arrange the tracks after the recording (e.g. during this time 11/12 usually have both the reverb and delay- recordings, freeing up those tracks).

I do not, however, agree that ableton record prefader. Yes if you record channel 13/14, but no if you record each channel individually. I experiment currently to record jams, arrange them a bit, eq and what now, and then record a dub of the whole thing.

Anyways, hope that this was helpful


Yeah it sort of was but im just not sure I understand. Thanks for your input though, I feel im getting a little closer. Honestly, once I sort this out ill be on my way to a victory. Happy to get another desk if it's going to be able to help me achieve this. Btw, just been on your soundcloud. Some cool ideas.
Koekepan
Well I know that it's possible because I've seen it done.

On the other hand, I'm not an Ableton user, so I can't really tell you how.

However, regardless of anything else, if you are recording a channel, and you can loop the wet signal into that channel, you should be recording the wet signal.
naturligfunktion
indifference point wrote:

Maybe we're saying the same thing but to clarify, you cannot record the individual channels post eq. You will hear the difference in your monitors but ableton won't be recording the eq. From the manual:

Console channels always send their post-gain, pre-EQ signal to their respective USB channel to be picked up and recorded by the PC/MAC Via USB

In fact here's a little tip if it's not obvious: when setting recording levels for each individual channel, I turn all the faders down because they don't do anything when using usb recording. The only thing that matters are the gain knobs at the top. I monitor everything on my Ableton master channel going into MTK 11/12 so I hear exactly the levels that I'm recording. Also this gets rid of the monitoring latency issues if you're only monitoring pre-ableton.

In other words, if you are using usb recording on your MTK, you have to look at it for what it is: a huge 12 channel audio interface with individual gains. Nothing else. If you want to use/record the fader and eq settings you will have to use it like a standard mixer and go out the main audio outs._


Mate that clarified a lot! Im going to try to monitor the master channel on 11/12, as I have had quite some latency issues as you described.

One question though: How do you bounce/export the final product? I usually set the levels right, maybe do a little eq on the mixer, and then I record everything on channel 13/14. I then solo that audio file and export it. It feels wrong (even though it sound nice), like there is an easier way to do it.

@sillyquestions?: You can absolutely record your AUX seperately from everything else. Just make sure to record them to a seperate channel smile and thanks for the listen!
sillyquestions?
Okay, well thanks everyone for the replies. Can anyone suggest to me a setup that I can go try now that allows me to record WET FX and assign each channel to record into ableton that corresponds to the channels on my desk? Cheers!
indifference point
naturligfunktion: glad I could help! I was kinda miffed when I first got the MTK and found that channel 11/12 only has rca audio ins, but realized that the usb in makes it the perfect channel to monitor ableton (and everything routed through it). Dunno if this answers your question but I almost always record the individual channels 1-10 for post processing/editing in ableton. Sometimes I'll do a "scratch" record of everything from 13/14 but if it's something I think I want to use then I'll record individual channels.

And by "use" I mean edit/finalize in ableton, bounce and never let it see the light outside my bedroom studio This is fun!

sillyquestions?:
dry euro/synth output -> MTK ch 1 (turn aux 1 up for pedal fx)
MTK aux 1 -> pedals -> MTK ch 2

ableton:
ch 1: "Audio From" ch 1 MTK, Monitor "In": record dry signal
ch 2: "Audio From" ch 2 MTK, Monitor "In": record wet signal

This is of course for mono signals but the same would apply to stereo, just with two channels for inputs and/or aux returns.

I also recommend setting up ableton monitoring as I described above so you can monitor all actual levels going into ableton and not have monitoring latency that you might otherwise (incorrectly) think is clock latency.

ableton/computer usb -> MTK ch 11/12 usb
select usb/rtn button
in ableton set your "Master Out" to 11/12
make sure all ableton channels set to "Monitor In"

when recording, turn all your MTK faders down except for 11/12 which is your master monitoring channel; adjust input/recording levels with gain knobs at top






________________________________
sillyquestions?
indifference point wrote:
naturligfunktion: glad I could help! I was kinda miffed when I first got the MTK and found that channel 11/12 only has rca audio ins, but realized that the usb in makes it the perfect channel to monitor ableton (and everything routed through it). Dunno if this answers your question but I almost always record the individual channels 1-10 for post processing/editing in ableton. Sometimes I'll do a "scratch" record of everything from 13/14 but if it's something I think I want to use then I'll record individual channels.

And by "use" I mean edit/finalize in ableton, bounce and never let it see the light outside my bedroom studio This is fun!

sillyquestions?:
dry euro/synth output -> MTK ch 1 (turn aux 1 up for pedal fx)
MTK aux 1 -> pedals -> MTK ch 2

ableton:
ch 1: "Audio From" ch 1 MTK, Monitor "In": record dry signal
ch 2: "Audio From" ch 2 MTK, Monitor "In": record wet signal

This is of course for mono signals but the same would apply to stereo, just with two channels for inputs and/or aux returns.

I also recommend setting up ableton monitoring as I described above so you can monitor all actual levels going into ableton and not have monitoring latency that you might otherwise (incorrectly) think is clock latency.

ableton/computer usb -> MTK ch 11/12 usb
select usb/rtn button
in ableton set your "Master Out" to 11/12
make sure all ableton channels set to "Monitor In"

when recording, turn all your MTK faders down except for 11/12 which is your master monitoring channel; adjust input/recording levels with gain knobs at top


Cool, thanks for the reply. And just to clarify. This setup will let me record my Aux in Wet to Ableton to corresponding channels on desk? This giving me the ability to post EQ etc and not have it record all to the one channel? Does that make sense? Cheers again.



________________________________
indifference point
sillyquestions? wrote:
This setup will let me record my Aux in Wet to Ableton to corresponding channels on desk? This giving me the ability to post EQ etc and not have it record all to the one channel? Does that make sense?


So ultimately you're asking if you can record the MTK eq into ableton?

To my knowledge, you will only be able to record MTK eq on the master channel 13/14 if you are using usb recording (and I didn't even realize that until naturligfunktion mentioned it). And if you do that, you will be recording ALL channels at once if you have multiple inputs going on.

You will never ever be able to record a single MTK channel over usb into ableton with the MTK eq applied. I'm not sure why you would want to do this anyway given you have much more eq control with the universe of eq's available to you in ableton/vst?

edit: if I've got your goal correct, i.e. you want to use/record outboard/mixer eq's, then the MTK is probably not for you. What you want/need is an analog mixer with individual audio outs for each channel and a multi-input audio interface of some sort (basically what Koekepan said in his first post)


__________________________
sillyquestions?
It's more for my pedals, I dont really like working in Ableton. Surely theres a way. Is there a desk that allows it? Im actually flabbergasted at the idea of there not being a way. What would be the point in External FX? I mean having to solo everything to record a 200 wet bar loop is not productive...
indifference point
lol mate i'm sorry but you've lost me at this point. i hope you get everything sorted the way you want.

_____________________________
sillyquestions?
Haha no worries. Thanks anyway. I guess it's looking impossible.
Chevron87
Definitely sounds like you need a mixer with multiple busses or outputs
sillyquestions?
Chevron87 wrote:
Definitely sounds like you need a mixer with multiple busses or outputs


Could you explain how this would work for me? Cheers
naturligfunktion
indifference point wrote:
naturligfunktion: glad I could help! I was kinda miffed when I first got the MTK and found that channel 11/12 only has rca audio ins, but realized that the usb in makes it the perfect channel to monitor ableton (and everything routed through it). Dunno if this answers your question but I almost always record the individual channels 1-10 for post processing/editing in ableton. Sometimes I'll do a "scratch" record of everything from 13/14 but if it's something I think I want to use then I'll record individual channels.

And by "use" I mean edit/finalize in ableton, bounce and never let it see the light outside my bedroom studio This is fun!


Okey mate I did try this and I am quite pleased with the result. The monitoring did really make the levels more even, and I could use more of my jam in the final recording, so thanks again!

One question though: All the tracks where send to the master, which I monitored through 11/12. Then when everything was recorded, I edited in ableton and did the usual, like track one = sequencers, track three = kicks etc (i.e. the individual tracks where not sent to the master).

How do you usually bounce? If you do that is. Im thinking to record the final thing on track 13/14, but maybe it's smarter to send everything to the master? I dunno.

Anyways, thanks for mixing tips!
dubonaire
indifference point wrote:

So ultimately you're asking if you can record the MTK eq into ableton?

To my knowledge, you will only be able to record MTK eq on the master channel 13/14 if you are using usb recording (and I didn't even realize that until naturligfunktion mentioned it). And if you do that, you will be recording ALL channels at once if you have multiple inputs going on.

You will never ever be able to record a single MTK channel over usb into ableton with the MTK eq applied. I'm not sure why you would want to do this anyway given you have much more eq control with the universe of eq's available to you in ableton/vst?


That's not quite correct. You can't record a channel's EQ direct from that channel, but you can route the channel through the Aux channels and Sub busses and then back to another channel. Cumbersome, but do-able.
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