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MIDI mangling
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software  
Author MIDI mangling
StrangeAttraction
Hello
Anyone familiar with software that allows you to mangle Midi sequences/files?
The exact methods of mangling could be different eg. stretching, transposing, rearranging notes, doing some probabilistic transformations, phrase phase rotation.
I understand that some of these can be done simply in most DAWs, but I wonder if there’s a plug-in which has a bunch of interesting algorithms for simply mangling sequences, the weirder, more probabilistic and out there, the better.
Bonus if it allows for more Midi or control messages to be sent to control the mangling parameters. Ideally,I could hook my modular to the laptop via expert sleepers and send some CV->MIDI.
Thanks
rovadams
Sounds like the old Cycling 74 product M - I used it to do randomized MIDI variations - https://cycling74.com/products/m
StrangeAttraction
rovadams wrote:
Sounds like the old Cycling 74 product M - I used it to do randomized MIDI variations - https://cycling74.com/products/m


cheers, very interesting!
Panason
Numerology may be worth checking out too.
Yasha
XX by U&I software is kinda like Metasynth for MIDI. You can select portions -- not necessarily contiguous -- of a piano roll and then copy & paste, stretch or compress along the time or pitch axes, invert or reverse, transpose or conform to a scale/mode, randomize selected parameters by chosen percentages, etc.

It's still rather rectilinear; I wish you could rotate selections, or stretch them along diagonals or curves. I'm confused by how it handles velocity and it's a poor plug-in host. Also, it's Mac-only. But it's the closest I've seen to a graphic editor for MIDI.
dpcoffin
There's a Max for Live tool for this:
https://www.ableton.com/en/packs/midivolve/#?item_type=max_for_live

You can load MIDI files into Numerology, but I don't know how much more it can do with them besides randomizing values to a set degree and timing. No special mangling algorithms I know about.

I don't know if you can work with your own dragged-in MIDI (seems likely), but the best list of mangling algorithms I've seen is inside RapidComposer:

"Included rhythm generators: Schillinger's Interference, Polyrhythm, Subdivision, Generic Rhythm, Probabilistic Rhythm, Euclidean Rhythm, Smooth Rhythm, Bass Rhythm, Simple Intervals, Toggle Intervals
Included phrase generators: Arpeggiator, Bass Generator, Chord Generator, Dyads Run, Generator, Fingerpicking Generator, Generic Generator, Phrase Container, Piano Run Generator, Strings Staccato Generator, only in the full edition: Melody Generator, Random Melody Generator, Phrase Morpher
Included variations: Add Chord Notes, Add Interval, Adjust Note Lengths, Apply Rhythm, Audio Gain, Delay Notes, Double Note, Double Phrase, Expression, Extract Rhythm, Humanize, Join Notes, Limit Note Range, MIDI Echo, Make Monophonic, Mirror Horizontally, Mirror Vertically, Permute Chord Notes, Quantize, Remove Note, Remove Short Notes, Rests, Rotate Notes, Simplify Phrase, Spread Out Chord Notes, Staccato-Legato, Strumming, Swap Chord Notes, Swing, Transpose, Triple Phrase, Velocity, Velocity Generator
Melody generation (full edition only), melody auto-harmonization using 2 methods…"

http://www.musicdevelopments.com/features.html

EDIT: http://www.musicdevelopments.com/midiimportingt.html
StrangeAttraction
@dpcoffin great suggestions! thanks we're not worthy
Panason
That RapidComposer looks really good and is currently on discount...

dpcoffin
Yeah, RC seems an invaluable, unique tool. But not really a performance device, like Numerology, for instance, right? In that you don't get to adjust it as it's running…more stop, set up, start, repeat…?

I've got Num, and I'm sure I'm under-using it, and perhaps described it above inaccurately; it's certainly a feature-monster, most of which I haven't explored yet. Its strength so far, for me, is that most everything is modulatable, so it's certainly easy to set up endlessly morphing MIDI-streams, mod'ing parameters inside the sequencers. Which doesn't feel "algorithmic", but definitely modular.

I'm totally fascinated by musical-machines like these, but so far have found MIDI FX in Logic (no doubt Live/Bitwig/Reason are similarly powerful) to be the most flexible AND approachable, since you can run all sorts of astounding sequencers (such as from Kontakt scripts and Reaktor AND Numerology) into all sorts of modifiers, which can mod each other, etc., and point the results at anything…

Then there's always THIS to keep an eye on:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=454461
Panason
Numerology is amazing but that UI needs a huge screen to be usable for me.

Not sure what the link to KVR is about?
dpcoffin
Panason wrote:

Not sure what the link to KVR is about?


Apparently the dev at Loomer has been working on THE monster MIDI processing tool for many years, and has finally promised to release something "in 2018".
dpcoffin
dpcoffin wrote:
Panason wrote:

Not sure what the link to KVR is about?


Apparently the dev at Loomer has been working on THE monster MIDI processing tool for many years, and has finally promised to release something "in 2018".


WELL, this long-awaited Super-Monster MIDI Processor thingy is finally HERE:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=517104

What is Architect?
Architect is a modular MIDI toolkit, which you can use to build MIDI generating, sequencing, and processing devices using a visual flow-based programming language. It has a collection of over 300 built-in modules, ranging from the big - analogue-style modular step sequencers and Lua script modules - down to the small - bitwise manipulators and mathematical functions - and everything in between. Devices can be exported as macros, shared, or re-used in further projects. Unlimited undo and redo ensure encourages exploration by guaranteeing that you can return to a "good" state.



Merry Xmas/Holidays, all!
Mantaray
Midivolve for M4L as linked by dpcoffin is really great, it doesn't do everything you mentioned but it does a lot.
foolprint
....
eclectics
This one's old and interesting

https://nosuch.com/keykit/
dpcoffin
Earlier I said:
"Yeah, RC seems an invaluable, unique tool. But not really a performance device, like Numerology, for instance, right? In that you don't get to adjust it as it's running…more stop, set up, start, repeat…? "

I've now spent some time with RC and been having amazing results with it, and yes it CAN definitely be adjusted while running. As a composing, arranging tool and not explicitly a performing tool like Numerology, it's not quite as fast or easy to adjust lots of its parameters, since you aren't working at the single note or event level where any note or parameter can be just grabbed and moved or automated, but the overall level of control is vastly deeper.

Most of the videos I've watched are not very good at showing the basic RC workflow in ways total beginners like myself can grasp quickly, but this one is pretty good in that way, I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP42OfaAatA

Once you're seriously looking for tutorials and help, there's plenty of that, plus the dedicated KVR forums are excellent with very active participation from the dev.

Of course it can be used as a vst, or host them, or on Mac, with the IAC driver, so it'll run anything, not just internal soundfonts.
dpcoffin
Here's an old, geeky Windows-only, apparently free thingy, looks deep:

http://www.palette-mct.com/index.html
dpcoffin
FYI, here's the first of a series of short intro videos showing Rapid Composer mangling MIDI:

https://youtu.be/Wyeltb5IMqs
ersatzplanet
I got into Cycling74 MAX version 2 before they added the audio capabilities (which was called Max/MSP when they did) and did a lot of MIDI mangling with it. I was always trying to do the stuff I did on my Atari with Dr.T Sequencer which had all kinds of boolean and if/then sort of operations you could insert into sequences. Stuff like "at step #X, choose randomly to play sequence A, C, E, or F, and play it 4 times and then play sequence B and start over". MAX is perfect for this sort of this sort of thing, and much more. Stuff like "transpose channel 16 by these many notes but only when channel 4 is playing between this note and this note". Lots lof logical and mathematical possibilities and solutions. That is why MAX and Pure Data (the free close cousin of MAX) is used by almost all the installation and procedural arts out there. Try out Pure Data if you can't afford MAX. It can do all the things MAX can in the MIDI realm. Just not as pretty. You will have to program the stuff but it is a very modular process going it - hooking up boxes that do one simple function to make a much more complex system.
dpcoffin
ersatzplanet wrote:
I got into Cycling74 MAX version 2 before they added the audio capabilities (which was called Max/MSP when they did) and did a lot of MIDI mangling with it.

You will have to program the stuff but it is a very modular process going it - hooking up boxes that do one simple function to make a much more complex system.


I longed for Max access for many years, and finally got it with Live 9… Sorry to say, I never did more than grab stuff from the user-built library.

What I actually dreamed about Max being able to do for me is exactly what I finally found in Rapid Composer:) Not an endlessly versatile tool-builder's tool-kit like Max or PD (both of which I still promise myself to some day come to grips with), but a more than deep enough (for me) collection of already-built, already internally- and externally-interactive tools in an already music-theory- and song-building-rich environment.

Still, your description has once again turned my head wistfully back towards Max, so thanks for that:) And back at Architect, too, big time; fascinated to see what THAT turns into!
dpcoffin
…and here's the second RC features demo:

https://youtu.be/iFFyu22Qjz0
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