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Arturia applies to trademark "Synthi" and releases
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge  
Author Arturia applies to trademark "Synthi" and releases
chamomileshark
This is curious.

https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/017988629

I've e-mailed Robin.

Update: Arturia releases Synthi V

https://www.arturia.com/products/analog-classics/synthi-v/overview
cretaceousear
Doesn't prior art stop them doing that?
Or do trademarks go free if out of use, like lapsed web domains?
leeski
They are still making Synthi's those lovely EMS guys
mritenburg
Arturia has probably licensed the Synthi from EMS and will be making a software Synthi instrument.

Also, if you look at the application, it is for a "figurative" mark meaning that it is the shape of the typeface that they are looking to protect, not the word itself. Did Arturia file an application for a trademark over the word "synthi" as well?
synthichap
Intersting.

Of course, considering that they have digital matrix patching down already, they might attempt a hardware version.
chamomileshark
mritenburg wrote:
Arturia has probably licensed the Synthi from EMS and will be making a software Synthi instrument.

Also, if you look at the application, it is for a "figurative" mark meaning that it is the shape of the typeface that they are looking to protect, not the word itself. Did Arturia file an application for a trademark over the word "synthi" as well?


It looks like the same typeface as that on my Synthi.
ArguZ
Good thing i just upgraded my V-Collection smile
ashleym
ArguZ wrote:
Good thing i just upgraded my V-Collection smile


As I am never in a rush to upgrade I can catch the cheaper (but later) upgrades. The new version would normally be announced by this time of year.
jfloftin
chamomileshark wrote:
mritenburg wrote:
Arturia has probably licensed the Synthi from EMS and will be making a software Synthi instrument.

Also, if you look at the application, it is for a "figurative" mark meaning that it is the shape of the typeface that they are looking to protect, not the word itself. Did Arturia file an application for a trademark over the word "synthi" as well?


It looks like the same typeface as that on my Synthi.

Just what typeface is used by EMS?
Triglav
jfloftin wrote:
chamomileshark wrote:
mritenburg wrote:
Arturia has probably licensed the Synthi from EMS and will be making a software Synthi instrument.

Also, if you look at the application, it is for a "figurative" mark meaning that it is the shape of the typeface that they are looking to protect, not the word itself. Did Arturia file an application for a trademark over the word "synthi" as well?


It looks like the same typeface as that on my Synthi.

Just what typeface is used by EMS?


Eurostile Extended probably.
jfloftin
Triglav wrote:
jfloftin wrote:
chamomileshark wrote:
mritenburg wrote:
Arturia has probably licensed the Synthi from EMS and will be making a software Synthi instrument.

Also, if you look at the application, it is for a "figurative" mark meaning that it is the shape of the typeface that they are looking to protect, not the word itself. Did Arturia file an application for a trademark over the word "synthi" as well?


It looks like the same typeface as that on my Synthi.

Just what typeface is used by EMS?


Eurostile Extended probably.


I know that. The better choice is Microgamma font.

What I want to know is what did or does EMS use for the graphics on the machines themselves? Silverface or Morning Mist...
papz
For the Synthi A/AKS, texts are Akzidenz Grotesk and knobs scale numbers are Futura.
I don't know for the VCS3.
papz
Arturia committed this behind Robin Wood's back without informing him and without prior discussion.
tobb
Oeps,Behringer is running to late lol
papz
I thought and hoped this terrible info would cause more reactions. seriously, i just don't get it
elmerfudd
Dunnoh, desensitized to these things, maybe? Its a rip and burn world, artists loose their rights of intellectual property, and all of us loose ownership of our own data on a daily basis. Robin should TM and register his fonts in the US, he can then get a judgement and make customs confiscate all the offending product as counterfeit. Worked for Louis Vuitton.....Don't even know if there will be trademark reciprocity after Britain leaves the EU so might just be an opening salvo.
Labulle
I am shocked by this more than questionable behavior on the part of a brand like Arturia. Some companies would probably benefit from being more fair to those they take credit from in order to succeed.
MindMachine
Labulle wrote:
I am shocked by this more than questionable behavior on the part of a brand like Arturia. Some companies would probably benefit from being more fair to those they take credit from in order to succeed.


The good news is we get to pick and choose which greedy corporations we purchase from.

This and their handling of the Microfreak credit has made up my mind.
Synesthesia
MindMachine wrote:

This and their handling of the Microfreak credit has made up my mind.


yup, that's it for me.

that showed Arturia in a particular light - and this is just another move in the bad direction.

this is worth than what Behringer is doing. there is a difference between cloning 30 year old machines made by a big corporation VS synths still in production, made by a brand like EMS.

i see there is a way to do opposition to this trademark request.... and there is zero opposition. Maybe this is where EMS should act ?

https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/017988629
thetaflux
Synesthesia wrote:
MindMachine wrote:

This and their handling of the Microfreak credit has made up my mind.


this is worth than what Behringer is doing. there is a difference between cloning 30 year old machines made by a big corporation VS synths still in production, made by a brand like EMS.


Is it though? The system 100 series is still in production, by Malekko Heavy Industry, licensed from Roland. The same thing with the Odyssey, ARP, and Korg.

I see no difference between them. All three are despicable.
ix
MindMachine wrote:
Labulle wrote:
I am shocked by this more than questionable behavior on the part of a brand like Arturia. Some companies would probably benefit from being more fair to those they take credit from in order to succeed.


The good news is we get to pick and choose which greedy corporations we purchase from.

This and their handling of the Microfreak credit has made up my mind.


bad news is it would appear that looking on most forums 98% of gear heads have zero ethics now toward rip off manufacturers and would sell their soul for anything if it was cheap and had 2 x osc and will support the Parasites

I think we live in a very dark age of selfish users personally , parasites and schemers and dominant businesses who really only care about their business profit margin and people seem to love them.,

Behringers just a cult really of cheap consumers with a massive ego maniac running things it would seem , its a bit creepy in all honesty how pathetically
cult follower like people became without question for one minute the ethics.
ArguZ
I am just waiting for the UL-thi
papz
Thanks for confirming ix's post relevance.
Hi5
ix wrote:

bad news is it would appear that looking on most forums 98% of gear heads have zero ethics now toward rip off manufacturers and would sell their soul for anything if it was cheap and had 2 x osc and will support the Parasites

I think we live in a very dark age of selfish users personally , parasites and schemers and dominant businesses who really only care about their business profit margin and people seem to love them.,

Behringers just a cult really of cheap consumers with a massive ego maniac running things it would seem , its a bit creepy in all honesty how pathetically
cult follower like people became without question for one minute the ethics.



Capitalism much? While I agree I also hope that no one who cries about this also shops at Amazon, Target, Walmart, etc.... EMS will continue to make small batches of synths at their current price point to the few that can afford it. If we want these mindsets to change then I hope we are all ready to take on the daily injustices of the companies that really have an effect on these ways of thinking. Stop creating the mindset for the cheapest price possible and maybe this will not happen so often.

It's very easy to criticize situations in the limited scope of the synth world while propagating the same very thing in daily life out of "convenience"
tobb
Registering a trademark by Arturia is more towards others softsynth sellers.


Talking of Ethics....who invented the 'EMS' brand and the 'Synhi' names?

Robin Wood?
papz
Robin Wood didn't design the Synthi nor invented the names but he aquired the full rights of EMS in 1995 after working for all incarnations continuously since 1970. I hardly can see any ethics issue on his side, in case that's what you insinuate.
rkilman
papz wrote:
Robin Wood didn't design the Synthi nor invented the names but he aquired the full rights of EMS in 1995 after working for all incarnations continuously since 1970. I hardly can see any ethics issue on his side, in case that's what you insinuate.


Hopefully he has done his due diligence in protecting the rights he acquired.

I just can't imagine what Arturia is thinking.
tobb
rkilman wrote:
papz wrote:
Robin Wood didn't design the Synthi nor invented the names but he aquired the full rights of EMS in 1995 after working for all incarnations continuously since 1970. I hardly can see any ethics issue on his side, in case that's what you insinuate.


Hopefully he has done his due diligence in protecting the rights he acquired.

I just can't imagine what Arturia is thinking.


yes indeed
papz
It's a bit more complicated unfortunately.
tobb
papz wrote:
It's a bit more complicated unfortunately.


Edit, Yes probably
doepferiano
OH! I'm in DANGER too I've to apply for my BRAND "NYSTHI" !
papz
Indeed, Arturia clearly expressed their will to "enforce the brand and make sure it is not misused", targeting third parties such as for example the "SynthiMuse", a random phrase generator for MIDI instruments, who have registered their name in 2016.

I renamed my new "Synthi Card" for 208 because of this. It will be the "VCS3 Card".
chamomileshark
I contacted Robin when I originally saw this and got a thank you reply.

Papz you obviously know more - care to share in a PM?
Blingley
ix wrote:


bad news is it would appear that looking on most forums 98% of gear heads have zero ethics now toward rip off manufacturers and would sell their soul for anything if it was cheap and had 2 x osc and will support the Parasites

I think we live in a very dark age of selfish users personally , parasites and schemers and dominant businesses who really only care about their business profit margin and people seem to love them.,

Behringers just a cult really of cheap consumers with a massive ego maniac running things it would seem , its a bit creepy in all honesty how pathetically
cult follower like people became without question for one minute the ethics.


The horrors of democratization and disenfranchised people groups being allowed to buy instruments. I bet my ass that like 90% of the people complaining about Behringer are white middle or upper middle class people from a first world country that have never gone hungry due to monetary reasons. Even Behringer products cost nearly a month's wage in Serbia, for instance.

Ethics are a luxury. A lot of people making music today are not able to afford them.

Though yeah, trademarking someone else's thing is next level of scummy. lol
dan_p
^ seriously, i just don't get it
nectarios
tobb wrote:
....who invented the 'EMS' brand and the 'Synhi' names?

Robin Wood?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Zinovieff

Quote:
In 1969, Zinovieff sought financing through an ad in The Times but received only one response, £50 on the mistaken premise it was the price of a synthesiser. Instead he formed EMS with Cockerell and Tristram Cary.[15] At the end of the 1960s, EMS Ltd. was one of four companies offering commercial synthesizers, the others being ARP, Buchla, and Moog.[16]
3001
These synths need to be less fetishized and owned by the lucky few. I wish these were in the hands of more creative people like they used to be. The greatest usages of the synthi are probably long in the past due to it being a collector's item. d'oh!

Robin Wood's a really nice guy, but can't keep up with the demand. It'd be nice if they weren't just for the synth elitists. If these were more mass produced I think we'd see much more creative music out there. The ms20 mini and brutes and all that really had an impact on the music world with musicians being able to get more creative instead of just going the electribe cheap route. more cheap options more better!!! more inclusivity not exclusivity!!!
AutomaticGainsay
No one really responded with outrage in this forum when someone decried Peter Zinovieff simply because the media used the sort of phrase that the media uses to describe people like him, despite the fact that EMS wouldn't exist at ALL without him.

No one demonstrates this level of moral indignation when anyone in the world makes cheap copies of Don Buchla's work and sells them boldly despite not having any right to do so.

And yet, Arturia pursues a legal avenue in this way, and there is OUTRAGE and MORAL INDIGNATION all over the place.

Wow.
chamomileshark
AutomaticGainsay wrote:


And yet, Arturia pursues a legal avenue in this way, and there is OUTRAGE and MORAL INDIGNATION all over the place.

Wow.


I've lived long enough and have enough corporate experience to get the full facts before hitting the moral indignation button.

As someone commented "It's more complicated than that". I'll leave it that.

For the moment.
papz
No one registered the Buchla trademark behind Buchla's back.
lisa
papz wrote:
No one registered the Buchla trademark behind Buchla's back.

Well, they couldn't since Buchla has been trademarked (since 1966, it seems).

I don't really know what to say about this type of situation. Is Arturia really doing anything wrong? The name Synthi seems to be up for grabs, legally. Why isn't it already registered if anybody cares about it?

BTW, the opposition period runs out in a few days so if anybody wants to fight Arturia on this then it has to happen now.
papz
Robin Wood didn't register the "Synthi" brand despite the production has never stopped for 50 years. It's Robin's initial mistake, ok, but this doesn't excuse Arturia's move to sneakily take advantage of the situation when they became aware of this.
Arturia registered a competitor's brand for a product still in production behind his back. Isn't that wrong ?
Robin finally decided not to do a legal opposition and went for an "amicable" agreement. Hopefully he won't get scammed again.
lisa
I'm not sure how you'd define "sneakily" but this is how it's done. They filed an application for a trademark in November and it was published in December with a three month opposition period. What would some non-sneaky process look like to you?

Robin could have filed an application right after he took over or in October of 2018. He could also have opposed the registration. I'm guessing he isn't very bothered by any of this as long as Arturia doesn't go after his production?
papz
Quote:
What would some non-sneaky process look like to you?

Prior consultation and agreement.
Be sure Robin is very bothered by this move.

As said before, this is a bit complicated.
AutomaticGainsay
papz wrote:
No one registered the Buchla trademark behind Buchla's back.


Not for lack of trying, papz.
AutomaticGainsay
papz wrote:
Robin finally decided not to do a legal opposition and went for an "amicable" agreement. Hopefully he won't get scammed again.


Then isn't this the end of it?
dan_p
I'm finding it hard to comprehend how anyone can think it isn't at least a little bit out of order to register someone else trademark of a product still in production. And the wigglers citing synthesisers for the masses, starving children and white privilege... Big Lolz
papz
AutomaticGainsay wrote:
Then isn't this the end of it?

This doesn't make Arturia's move more fair. They should have consulted Robin before doing this instead of registering his brand behind his back hoping he wouldn't notice it, which would have occured if Camomileshark and other people hadn't warned him.

As dan_p wrote "I'm finding it hard to comprehend how anyone can think it isn't at least a little bit out of order to register someone else trademark of a product still in production."
Looks like we're probably naive idealists ? seriously, i just don't get it
Graham Hinton
AutomaticGainsay wrote:
No one really responded with outrage in this forum when someone decried Peter Zinovieff simply because the media used the sort of phrase that the media uses to describe people like him, despite the fact that EMS wouldn't exist at ALL without him.


The media used the sort of phrase that Zinovieff fed them, he has been a master of playing the media for over 50 years. EMS would not have started without Zinovieff's [then] wife's money, but it is naive to assume that David Cockerell and Tristram Cary would never have done anything for the rest of their lives without that help.


dan_p wrote:
I'm finding it hard to comprehend how anyone can think it isn't at least a little bit out of order to register someone else trade mark of a product still in production.


It's a fairly common practise. I know of one person who became a millionaire by registering trade marks of large companies in countries where they were not registered, including "St. Michael" in Spain so when M&S decided to expand there they had to buy their own trade mark back. It was cheaper than reprinting all their packaging. The people who do it are scum like the people who grab domain names and try to sell them to people they apply to. The best thing is to let them waste their money.

There is a difference between a trade mark (TM) and a registered trade mark (R). Since the "Synthi" trade mark has been in continuous use by EMS since 1972 they have prior usage which may invalidate later registration. However trade mark law is different in different countries.
bwhittington
Blingley wrote:

Ethics are a luxury. A lot of people making music today are not able to afford them.


That is a truly shocking, dispiriting view.
elmerfudd
bwhittington wrote:
Blingley wrote:

Ethics are a luxury. A lot of people making music today are not able to afford them.


That is a truly shocking, dispiriting view.


Oh the irony, 'Ethics are the aesthetics of the future' (poorly translated as the end justifies the means) is a Marxist maxim, now being recycled to justify a naked power (money) grab by predatory capitalists.
Ol Karl is spinnin in the grave. Or laughing, as bougie Synhti owners square off against bougie wannabe artists who think a synthi nameplate on a $300 synth is, like, exactly the same thing!
If they have the skills they should make a low cost synth that captures the synti signal and workflow flexibility and they would sell a load of them, wouldn't matter what they named it, call it THE TURD. But its soo much easier to poach the name and stick it on a turd and just sell the panache.
slow_riot
It would be more interesting to see customers judge how the money they spend is being used... e.g. how are the staff treated, what business practices are employed to obtain the desired results?

For instance, for all of Uli Behringer's marketing of Music Tribe as a people's liberation resistance, almost everyone who worked there disagrees:

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/MUSIC-Tribe-Reviews-E662385.htm

Assuming the customer can afford such alternative strategies towards capital, they may well yield better results for them in multiple dimensions, these big companies are only in it for one reason, no matter what the marketing says.
weinglas
dan_p wrote:
I'm finding it hard to comprehend how anyone can think it isn't at least a little bit out of order to register someone else trademark of a product still in production. And the wigglers citing synthesisers for the masses, starving children and white privilege... Big Lolz


Sad, but true waah
flashheart
bwhittington wrote:
Blingley wrote:

Ethics are a luxury. A lot of people making music today are not able to afford them.


That is a truly shocking, dispiriting view.

Agreed. confused And this attitude while musical tools have NEVER been cheaper in real terms. seriously, i just don't get it
Ceres
Wëèêę¿
papz
elmerfudd wrote:
But its soo much easier to poach the name and stick it on a turd and just sell the panache.

Well said thumbs up
MindMachine
Arturia is on a marketing roll lately! zombie
Blingley
bwhittington wrote:
Blingley wrote:

Ethics are a luxury. A lot of people making music today are not able to afford them.


That is a truly shocking, dispiriting view.


Perhaps, but it's true - and probably going to not only stay true, but to accelerate into the near future.

flashheart wrote:

Agreed. confused And this attitude while musical tools have NEVER been cheaper in real terms. seriously, i just don't get it


Yes, but democratization also means that the more disenfranchised are trying to get a voice in music. Back when only wealthy people could afford instruments, the only people that could afford instruments could also afford to care about ethics. And as these people were the only people able to afford the instruments, they were the only target market for them - and as such the manufacturers of these products had to care as well.

In addition to that, competition has never been more fierce. Even people from disenfranchised groups and poor countries need to compete on a global scale, should they wish to find an audience for their music.

To put it into perspective, India has 1,3billion people, or close to 18% of the entire world population. The GDP per capita is less than two thousand US dollars - the median wage is likely well below that. Living in a modernizing society, these people will want to take part in the cultural artefacts of the global society - including music. Do you think someone living on $1500/year gives a damn whether or not there is some outstanding IP dispute on their instrument manufacturer? And that is not even the most extreme example: Kinshasa is predicted to become the largest city on the planet by 2075, and D.R. of Kongo sports an astounding GDP per capita of less than $500.

The average person on the planet is poor, likely to get more poor, but still wants to have a voice in the culture of our planet. These people do not, and will not, give a damn about some people on an internet synth geek forum getting their emotions hurt, or some synth manufacturer in a faraway country losing their profits over someone copying their designs. And as these areas grow relatively richer, that is able to afford instruments at all, they will form the largest market for these products. It is as such unlikely that most manufacturers will give a shit either.
papz
Do you think many people living on $1500/year consider buying a synth, even as "cheap" as $300 ? Seriously ?
The manufacturers of cheap instruments rather target wealthier people strongly affected by GAS who always want more and don't care about ethics, like most synth geeks on the forums.
dan_p
Blingley wrote:

Back when only wealthy people could afford instruments


Ahh yes, that time back yonder when the rich landowners kept music away from the proles in the fileds and the poor were left in cultural isolation waiting for someone to invent folk music...
Blingley
papz wrote:
Do you think many people living on $1500/year consider buying a synth, even as "cheap" as $300 ? Seriously ?


There are, believe it or not, people of above average wealth in these countries. People for whom a basic keyboard synth is an investment similar to someone buying a grand piano in the wealthier western countries. And there are certainly people of below average wealth in more wealthy countries. The point is that the relative wealth of the average person interested in making music has significantly decreased as music trends and culture as a whole became global due the the internet.

papz wrote:
The manufacturers of cheap instruments rather target wealthier people strongly affected by GAS who always want more and don't care about ethics, like most synth geeks on the forums.


Or it may be just that being on these forums we get overexposed to that group of people. Besides, most synth geeks won't be happy unless the product is organically sourced from the finest component farms grown in the exact same old-stock conditions of the synths of yore.

dan_p wrote:
Blingley wrote:

Back when only wealthy people could afford instruments


Ahh yes, that time back yonder when the rich landowners kept music away from the proles in the fileds and the poor were left in cultural isolation waiting for someone to invent folk music...


Well, for whatever it's worth, not much of many folk traditions remains to this day and age, and the history of European music for instance is basically laden with church music and relatively wealthy composers. Having good instruments gives you cultural power. Or perhaps you think that many of the churches invested heavily into organs for the sheer lulz of it.

Or perhaps your argument is that the poor should be content making music for only their close circle to hear and happy being forgotten, without even trying to make a mark on the world, letting the rich people to do it instead? hmmm.....
chamomileshark
Maybe we can drop the political economics and stick to the original subject?

The original subject has nothing to do with producing cheap hardware versions of existing products. It has nothing to do with the purchasing power (or lack of) of potential customers.
dan_p
thumbs up

chamomileshark wrote:

The original subject has nothing to do with producing cheap hardware versions of existing products. It has nothing to do with the purchasing power (or lack of) of potential customers.
bwhittington
Blingley wrote:
bwhittington wrote:
Blingley wrote:

Ethics are a luxury. A lot of people making music today are not able to afford them.


That is a truly shocking, dispiriting view.


Perhaps, but it's true - and probably going to not only stay true, but to accelerate into the near future.


I think I may have been misunderstood. I consider your conclusion and the fact that someone would draw such a conclusion to be shocking and dispiriting. You seem to think your opinion represents the state of the world. I see it more as an absurd notion in support of your consumer habits (or your internet arguments, or whatever). I'm sure you are a great guy in real life and aren't reading your comment in as horrifying a light as I am. I'm hearing that ethics, the foundation of society in my view, are trivialities next to you being able to buy cheap gear. For the sake of, you know, all mankind, I'll hope your wrong on that one.

For what very little it matters, I'd definitely take surviving European folk music traditions over the modern Euro/synth scene. hihi
Blingley
bwhittington wrote:


I think I may have been misunderstood. I consider your conclusion and the fact that someone would draw such a conclusion to be shocking and dispiriting. You seem to think your opinion represents the state of the world. I see it more as an absurd notion in support of your consumer habits (or your internet arguments, or whatever). I'm sure you are a great guy in real life and aren't reading your comment in as horrifying a light as I am. I'm hearing that ethics, the foundation of society in my view, are trivialities next to you being able to buy cheap gear. For the sake of, you know, all mankind, I'll hope your wrong on that one.

For what very little it matters, I'd definitely take surviving European folk music traditions over the modern Euro/synth scene. hihi


For whatever it's worth, I own neither Arturia nor Behringer products. But I also come from a wealthy European nation, and have lived my entire life in relative luxury. I can factor ethics to my consumption habits. Presumably, so can most people on this forum. Modular synths are not a cheap hobby.

But I've certainly been to places and met people who can't. And yet I believe these people deserve to have access to instruments that allow them to compete in the global music market; that they have meaningful contributions to make. So people - especially people living in privilege - making blanket statements about manufacturers catering to this market and the people buying their products really rubs me the wrong way.
papz
chamomileshark wrote:
The original subject has nothing to do with producing cheap hardware versions of existing products. It has nothing to do with the purchasing power (or lack of) of potential customers.
Misk
Blingley wrote:

Ethics are a luxury. A lot of people making music today are not able to afford them.



lol this shit is straight tone deaf — Are you seriously suggesting that there's a relationship between wealth and ethics?

go back to reddit.
lud
There are more important things than modular synths blingley, ethics are one of them. The poor are the ones being exploited to make knock off Synthis and Moogs. Arturia are almost like scammers the way they're treating the industry
chamomileshark
Now out

https://www.arturia.com/products/analog-classics/synthi-v/overview

Just watched the videos and listened to the sound demos and I have to say it has absolutely nailed the sound of an Arturia software synth.

Listened to the Mellotron and that sounds nothing like any Mellotron I've heard either...
richard
I don't care two figs about the product but I'd sure like to massacre their copy writer
ryangaston
richard wrote:
I don't care two figs about the product but I'd sure like to massacre their copy writer


Was thinking exactly the same thing confused
Siren
I don’t know it for a fact that Arturia keep releasing the same exact software synth under different names.
I just know it’s true..

razz
ArguZ
The funny thing is that most synths are very much the same in the hands of new people.
That explains the success of the Access Virus.
Anyway, their predatory politics aside , isn't it time for some AB comparisons ?
Maybe a vintage vs a Clooney vs Arturia ?
Graham Hinton
The real difference is that many people have got through a gig using an EMS Synthi without it crashing, and still do after 50 years. If you don't like a particular part of the design it can be fixed. That's not a reputation that Arturia have earned...
This picture on a screen is as much a Synthi as a Beat Step "Pro" is professional.
seamonkeyman
Just listened to the demos, and as above, it sounds nothing as in NOTHING like a Synthi.

I'm lucky enough to have an AKS and a VCS3 at arm's reach to attest to this. help

Despite the somewhat weird sixth form political ramblings above, I can also confirm that although I have access to these great synths, I'm not part of the 'bougie' (sic) (bourgeoisie?), (but yes Sir, I can boogie).... nanners

FWIW, I've previously been very broke, homeless, eating instant noodles with a coathanger as I didn't have a fork level of poor, and I can absolutely confirm that at that time I wasn't that bothered about having a 'voice in the culture of our planet'. That's a totally mental perspective, I was very concerned with basic survival at the time, but anyway I don't want to encourage the armchair revolutionaries to dive back in.

The ethical thing here to me is important, just because something is possible, and perhaps everyone else is doing it, doesn't make it necessarily 'right'. Grabbing somebody else's stuff is never cool, whether it's conducted through some legal process or otherwise is irrelevant, if Arturia snagged the 'Synthi' name, by anything other than a direct approach to Robin Wood to me is a deal breaker in buying any more of their shonky stuff. (Sorry, had to get that in as my Minibrute fell to bits).

Before a gang of Che Guevara acolytes pile on me for being a covert 'bougie', I'm personally so far left of centre that you're wasting your time, and I didn't acquire my stuff through exploiting the proletariat. (mods please forgive me for skirting politics in a vague attempt at humour).
chamomileshark
I've provided some simple audio demos of the VCS3 on the KvR forum as most people don't have access to one.

Aside from the whole thing of their dealings with Robin, I think if you are going to trade on the cache of an icon they could have done a better job. SIAC (Reaktor ensemble) sounds to me more accurate and more in the spirit of the EMS. That was Zootook a decade or so ago and I don't think he had access to a Synthi.

and to me the Mellotron is even worse (and I wonder if they sorted that out with the owners of that trademark).

One thing I have noticed though was that they seem to have dropped the endorsement by the great and the good - I think they did that with several of their earlier synths but I didn't see anyone like JMJ saying how accurate their Synthi V was...
papz
In March 2018, Baptiste Le Goff, a Product Manager of Arturia, asked me if I could cooperate to a software Synthi AKS project that would be the best ever by giving infos and testing the software to get it as close as possible to the real thing. I replied I'd be happy to cooperate as long as Arturia has an agreement with Robin Wood. He replied that they had contacted Robin, he was ok and an agreement was pending. I trusted him and accepted.

I helped them providing many info about operation and circuits, replying the developer's questions... At some point they asked me if I could help find a Synthi for sale or to rent, I offered to lend one of my perfectly working AKS. In September 2018 I visited the Arturia premises in Grenoble to bring the Synthi, meet the crew and see the first drafts of the software. Everybody there was very friendly and at the time of signing the lending contract, I asked about the agreement with Robin and was told all was ok.

The rest of the story is explained in previous posts : there was no actual agreement with Robin, they even stole his SYNTHI brand behind his back. So they are thieves and liars. I won't detail tractations here but it seems that the aforementioned "amicable" agreement also failed : Robin will get nothing and plans to defend his rights in a legal action.

I resigned in February 2019 and they returned my Synthi.

Next to this, the untruthful communication about the MicroFreak introducing it as a "collaboration with their friends of Mutable Instruments" (it was not, they just used Mutable Instruments' open source code) made me realize a bit lately that they actually did not want any real input from me, most suggestions that I did about the software were instantly rejected even before to give them a try 'it will be too difficult technically', despite I insisted on that these were essential to reproduce the "real" Synthi experience they claim they want to offer. I found it suprising because at the same time they told they wanted me to be very picky when I'd test the software, and point any difference.
I was naive. It's now clear that they were more interested in using me and my good reputation regarding the Synthi to do name dropping, like they did with Mutable Instrument and in their promotional videos for other products.

I didn't test the software, but I'm not surprised to read that it doesn't sound like a Synthi. It just can't sound neither behave like a Synthi the way it was done.
ersatzplanet
Papz - it looks like that the only thing they used your Synthi for was the photo shoot and the video.
papz
I see what you mean and totally agree except that it's not my Synthi on the pic and video but another one. lol

Arturia wrote:
Synthi V looks and feels as good as it sounds.

I couldn't say better. lol
gminorcoles
What a bizarre tale. It's a small world why would they not go straight to the source and work directly with EMS?
mgscheue
Emilie made quite similar comments. She met with Arturia but they had already pretty much made up their minds about the MicroFreak and weren’t really interested in hearing any substantive input.
papz
gminorcoles wrote:
What a bizarre tale. It's a small world why would they not go straight to the source and work directly with EMS?

Because Arturia's managers are thieves, think like thieves and act like thieves. Working with EMS was the initial project but when they noticed the opportunity to rather grab the Synthi brand, they just did it. One cannot go against his nature.
Triglav
papz wrote:
gminorcoles wrote:
What a bizarre tale. It's a small world why would they not go straight to the source and work directly with EMS?

Because Arturia's managers are thieves, think like thieves and act like thieves. Working with EMS was the initial project but when they noticed the opportunity to rather grab the Synthi brand, they just did it. One cannot go against his nature.


What's your opinion on the iVCS3 iPad app? I haven't had the chance to try a real VCS3 (although I've played with a Synthi 100) but it seems pretty well done.
papz
I only saw the iVCS3 on a friend's phone once, actually I'm not very interested in software synths.
We compared AB with a real VCS3 and it's not the same of course (tbh I think no software will ever be able to sound and behave close to a VCS3) but the interface respects the VCS3 look and the $15 price makes it a more interesting bargain than other much more expensive emulations.

It's good to mention that the owners of the iVCS3 app have a fair license agreement with Robin Wood and respect it.
snufkin
Basically Arturia are complete scum, I wouldn't touch their products after these two examples of predatory activity.
chamomileshark
I feel a bit bad that I'd previously got the CMI and Synclavier. I know the Synclavier is probably ok given Cameron's involvement. Less sure about the CMI.
doepferiano
I love more my VCS3 than my iVCS3 ! grin grin

(don't blame me Alessandro ! )

papz wrote:
I only saw the iVCS3 on a friend's phone once, actually I'm not very interested in software synths.
We compared AB with a real VCS3 and it's not the same of course (tbh I think no software will ever be able to sound and behave close to a VCS3) but the interface respects the VCS3 look and the $15 price makes it a more interesting bargain than other much more expensive emulations.

It's good to mention that the owners of the iVCS3 app have a fair license agreement with Robin Wood and respect it.
misa
Whoa, papz, that is quite shocking!

And thank you for getting your side of the story out to make people reconsider getting Arturo’s products.
cornwallradiophonic
misa wrote:
Whoa, papz, that is quite shocking!

And thank you for getting your side of the story out to make people reconsider getting Arturo’s products.


i pondered a few Arturia products soon , i wont go near the shite now.

Its like the moral ethics almost totally gone in many humans now , i find this story fucking unbelievable , who owns that company or made that decision ?
deftinwulf
Jesus Christ, Arturia.

I'm so glad I sold my Keystep and bought a Mantis instead of a Rackbrute.

The Microfreak was bad enough, but based on Emilie's followup comments (and retractions of previous comments by way of deletion), it seemed that some misunderstanding had occurred and been rectified. So I forgave it.

But after this situation and papz recounting of it, I'm done with Arturia. Shocking, disgusting behavior.
kinkujin
I’m glad to have read this though it saddens and sickens me. I’m not surprised as not much in the capitalist mindset does surprise me. Humans be humans - but reading others comments from this forum does give hope in the humans.

I’m sure some of my purchasing decisions are not pure, but I do believe I have bought my last Arturia product.
ranix
Amazing and disappointing to hear how Arturia have gone down the toilet. I really love the hardware I've gotten from them so far and the way they've treated their customers, like when they released schematics for the MiniBrute. I love my Beatstep Pro. But bad management kills companies when left unchecked, and if they've got managers acting like thieves the company's days are numbered. It's a very fast race to the bottom once the company starts acting that way.
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