Krell on Ciat-Lonbarde?

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odditymedium
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Krell on Ciat-Lonbarde?

Post by odditymedium » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:07 am

Is the Krell Patch possible on Peter's synths?

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Post by pugix » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:53 am

Not easily. The Cocoquantus Quantussy oscillators always have some kind of loop in their connections to each other. As I pointed out in the Krell thread, Krell patches stem from the application of stepped random voltages to the slopes of voltage controlled envelope generators. And this control graphs downward with no control feedback loops.

You need an oscillating EG with VC up and down slopes plus an end pulse to do each Krell voice. A Swoop might work for this. And a Dunst could provide random voltages and a VCA. A Denum could be the VCO/VCA. But you should have two random sources (each with a sample & hold) for a Krell voice: one for the EG and one for the VCO pitch. I don't know of a patchable Sample & Hold feature on any Ciat-Lonbarde gear. (Quantussy has ten S&H internally. Mr. Grassis has S&H on all outputs, but sourced internally.) So if you added a dual S&H module (such as the 2hp) to a set of I.F.M., you could probably do it.

My view is that Krells are limited, compared to the CV patterns you can get with the Quantussy, etc..
Richard
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odditymedium
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Post by odditymedium » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:13 am

thank you. is there a simple way to understand the quantussy's possibilities? as in, all the possible states?

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Post by pugix » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:20 pm

odditymedium wrote:thank you. is there a simple way to understand the quantussy's possibilities? as in, all the possible states?
I don't think there is any way to understand the possibilities. But you can get some idea:

1. Each 'cell' (oscillator + 2 sample & holds), is always connected to one of the other four in such a way the the Other's Castle output FM's the oscillator (at a depth of the Chaos knob), and the Other's Triangle output is sampled by the Castle input. The Red and Green LEDs show which Other is connected. The Blue LED shows if the S&H is in Track/Hold mode.

2. If you consider all the equivalent topologies to be one, there seem to be about 13 distinct topologies, i.e. different ways to connect five together. Then, for each of those 13, the five can be in S&H or T&H mode. So that is 2 to the fifth power, or 32 x 13 = 416 distinct states.

3. Now, for each of those 416 states, each Osc can be in one of three ranges, which is 3 to the fifth power or 243 states of range, from all low range to all high range.

4. 416 x 243 = 101,088 states.

Then, of course in any of those states, there are still the Base Frequency knob and the Chaos knob settings to work with.

If you really work at it, you can try to think your way through one of these configurations. But in the end you just have to play around with it. :)

Quite often I leave it in the power-up state (all Green LEDs), because this connects the five in a circular ring, which is the most complex. Any other topology has at least one cell that isn't controlling another one. For example, four cells can all be controlled by the fifth one (which is in turn controlled by one of the other four). Three are left not controlling any other.
Richard
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"Everything in our world is actually always modulated by everything else." - Peter B

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Post by odditymedium » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:55 pm

Wow, thanks.

How do you make the power-up state? Do you mean simply the state when power is turned on?

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Post by The Grump » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:57 pm

pugix wrote: Quite often I leave it in the power-up state (all Green LEDs), because this connects the five in a circular ring, which is the most complex. Any other topology has at least one cell that isn't controlling another one. For example, four cells can all be controlled by the fifth one (which is in turn controlled by one of the other four). Three are left not controlling any other.
it would be just as complex with all of the oscillators using a different but uniform configuration (and thus color scheme), would it not? With each oscillator being tuned uniquely from the others, all manner of wonderful strangeness is possible.

Something not many people do, that I am aware of, is explore the magic of the heterodyne stuff that can happen way up above the range of human hearing. If you get the adjustments correct, CRAZY patterns of subharmonics can appear, but you have to look for them, and be careful with your ears when you do!

:bananaguitar:

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Post by odditymedium » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:49 am

how to do this the grump

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Post by pugix » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:21 am

The Grump wrote:
pugix wrote: Quite often I leave it in the power-up state (all Green LEDs), because this connects the five in a circular ring, which is the most complex. Any other topology has at least one cell that isn't controlling another one. For example, four cells can all be controlled by the fifth one (which is in turn controlled by one of the other four). Three are left not controlling any other.
it would be just as complex with all of the oscillators using a different but uniform configuration (and thus color scheme), would it not? With each oscillator being tuned uniquely from the others, all manner of wonderful strangeness is possible.
Yes, by the most complex I mean that each oscillator is controlling another one. That only happens if they are in a ring. All green, all red, all green AND red, and all off are four equivalent configurations, each producing a ring of five.
Richard
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Post by Hainbach » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:22 am

The Grump wrote:
pugix wrote: Quite often I leave it in the power-up state (all Green LEDs), because this connects the five in a circular ring, which is the most complex. Any other topology has at least one cell that isn't controlling another one. For example, four cells can all be controlled by the fifth one (which is in turn controlled by one of the other four). Three are left not controlling any other.
it would be just as complex with all of the oscillators using a different but uniform configuration (and thus color scheme), would it not? With each oscillator being tuned uniquely from the others, all manner of wonderful strangeness is possible.

Something not many people do, that I am aware of, is explore the magic of the heterodyne stuff that can happen way up above the range of human hearing. If you get the adjustments correct, CRAZY patterns of subharmonics can appear, but you have to look for them, and be careful with your ears when you do!

:bananaguitar:
AAAAAH, so good!

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Post by odditymedium » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:31 am

how to get heterodyne subharmonics

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Post by The Grump » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:35 am

odditymedium wrote:how to get heterodyne subharmonics
Start with two oscillators set to high rate, cross-modding each other, get the pitch up fairly high, play with the chaos a bit and start listening. Play with the other three oscillators' cross mod settings, and let the strange bleeds work their magic as well. take your time, and move in small increments. I like to squish connections in addition to using bananas, and if I'm careful, I can get things to stabilize to the point that all kinds of strange things emerge. You'll also get more of this happening as you make drastic jumps in buffer sizes on the cocos, and pass things back and forth.

Of course, external sources are also quite useful in this regard. However, be careful not to cook your sound system or your ears with large amounts of energy that, while above your normal audible range, still can affect you.

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Post by The Grump » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:36 am

In-line resistors are also your friend. ;)

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Post by williamjturkel » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:41 am

On a related note, it is very easy to make Krell patches with IFM modules if you add a sample and hold. Without the sample and hold, I think it is possible to get something Krell-like but difficult.

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Post by pugix » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:09 pm

williamjturkel wrote:On a related note, it is very easy to make Krell patches with IFM modules if you add a sample and hold. Without the sample and hold, I think it is possible to get something Krell-like but difficult.
Another reason I wish there were an IFM sample & hold module.
Richard
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Post by cowboyelectronics » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:59 pm

pugix wrote:
williamjturkel wrote:On a related note, it is very easy to make Krell patches with IFM modules if you add a sample and hold. Without the sample and hold, I think it is possible to get something Krell-like but difficult.
Another reason I wish there were an IFM sample & hold module.
i'd gladly welcome a rhizomatic utility / logic module from ieaskul

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