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MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Buchla, EMS & Serge Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next [all]
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weedywhizz
Hi,

just finished a 259 PCB set including reference designators. Just in case you guys are interested in an alternative source in Europe.
PCB2 has already been tested and works fine. PCB1 will be tested in the next 2-3 days - edit: works fine. Need to calibrate and compare now.

I'm also planning to do partial kits. Like the 266 PCBs with 4006 and noise ICs etc so you don't have to buy in 10 different shops for a single module.

PCB prices are around 60% of EMS prices.

Cheers
Steffen

julian
Good to see!

Steffen, could you confirm if you layout matches the panel files in current use?
weedywhizz
julian wrote:
Good to see!

Steffen, could you confirm if you layout matches the panel files in current use?


Hi Julian,

yes they match. Also testing the fit via 3D printed panels.
guitarfool
applause applause applause
lasesentaysiete
SlayerBadger!

good idea with the kits, too.

Why are some pads for the ics long and some round?
weedywhizz
lasesentaysiete wrote:
SlayerBadger!

good idea with the kits, too.

Why are some pads for the ics long and some round?


The round ones take less space on the PCB. When a trace runs through IC pins space is required. On the other side of the board the IC pads are all "long".
jimfowler
so dope. excellent work steffen.
tobb
Please make the pcb's in blue solder mask,looks much better!
weedywhizz
I'm open to ideas and sure blue PCBs can be done (incl. solder mask)

You might be one of 100 who likes that glossy blue more than matte black. So any feedback is appreciated.
tarandfeathers
I prefer being able to easily follow traces for troubleshooting, especially on complex designs, black PCBs are horrible for this. That said I am not in the market for more 259 PCBs but these do look very good.
cygmu
Just FWIW, I very much dislike the matte black for the same reasons as given above. But a board in matte black is preferable to no board at all smile
weedywhizz
292c - done & fully working....yes yes...I know - blue ones Mr. Green
I can offer both if there is demand.
mothertongue
Nice work, here's another vote for not-black (even though it looks great)! I will definitely support an alternative source of these PCBs.
electricmusicstore
weedywhizz wrote:
292c - done & fully working....yes yes...I know - blue ones Mr. Green
I can offer both if there is demand.


Steffen,

This 292c PCB looks, at least from the photo, identical to the PCBs we are selling at Electric Music Store. If I'm wrong please tell me what you have changed so I can compare. I haven't looked at the 259 yet but I'm also curious if its the same as the 259r ver1.

Just because these are cloned designs doesn't mean the PCB layout is fair game to copy. A lot of time was spent making these PCB layouts and verifying that they work. You can make your own clones, but please do your own PCB layouts.

If you prefer to discuss this over email you then send me one. I do not post to this forum much.

Shawn from EMS
mothertongue
Quote:
Just because these are cloned designs doesn't mean the PCB layout is fair game to copy.


????

What does that mean?
electricmusicstore
mothertongue wrote:
Quote:
Just because these are cloned designs doesn't mean the PCB layout is fair game to copy.


????

What does that mean?


The function, and hopefully the sound, are cloned as closely as possible. It doesn't mean the traces on the PCB, PCB layout, or the parts used are 100% identical to a vintage design. That would be very hard considering the change in parts used in those days versus now. There are a few modules where Roman cloned them as accurately as possible, in particular the 281 vintage version, the 259 rev. 2 and the 208 rev. 2, but for most modules it was necessary to change some things. When changes are made then its obvious when another PCB appears on the market with the exact same layout. Its not impossible to take a bare PCB and reproduce it including the traces, it just takes paying someone skilled enough to do it. It already happened with another Buchla related PCB set for sale. Its odd these "new" 292c also have exactly the same colors on the PCBs! Why sell something that already exists? Well I guess that part is pretty obvious.

If I'm wrong I'd welcome a reply from Steffen and I will apologize. I just find it very coincidental considering the other thread about the 208 LTD ED.

Shawn
tobb
The traces of the 259 rev2 clones are identical to the original,the only changes are the switching ic's they have a different pinout VS the obsolete vintage IC's .

Other then that up to date matching pair transistors are used.

SO if you apply these mods to a vintage layout you come to the same result as the pcb you are selling.

No magic involved !

If you want to keep selling your pcb's just drop the price!
electricmusicstore
tobb wrote:
The traces of the 259 rev2 clones are identical to the original,the only changes are the switching ic's they have a different pinout VS the obsolete vintage IC's .

Other then that up to date matching pair transistors are used.

SO if you apply these mods to a vintage layout you come to the same result as the pcb you are selling.

No magic involved !

If you want to keep selling your pcb's just drop the price!


hello Tobb.

Your comments don't contradict anything I've said. Please read my post. I was commenting about the 292c which definitely does not share the same PCB layout as a vintage module. On a vintage 292 you have the panel and behind it you have a pot board and a main PCB board. Not so on Roman's, it is all on one board.

On Steffen's version it looks almost identical to Roman's board. Even the component silkscreens look as identical as I can see from an online photo. How is that possible? A couple lines of silkscreen are slightly smaller for where the vactrols are placed, but oh so slightly. Very minute.

I specifically didn't bring up the 259 because Roman's rev. 2 is as identical as possible to a vintage one so I have less "magic" (as you call it) to point to in trying to figure out if it was cloned or not. Instead, what I've mentioned is pretty hard to refute that its anything but a straight up copy.

So you change the conversation to prices. That's a totally different thing to discuss. If cars were cheaper maybe people wouldn't steal them? Roman had his reason for his prices and I have mine. He spent a lot of time on PCB layouts and getting the modules to work correctly, creating BOMs, etc. Even if they were clones they don't just make themselves and work right away. He had to track down and buy vintage Buchla modules to make comparisons. He surely profited from his work after some period of time. That's his benefit.

I bought the stock, store and pcb layouts from Roman. I am trying to pay back the money that I've invested. I've kept the previous prices mostly the same. There were a couple adjustments but not many. New products were added, again at an expense. Who knows what will happen to the prices once I've been paid back? I would love to see lower prices too, when feasible. But you're making an assumption that things are overpriced, which may seem true compared to the actual cost of PCBs, but not necessarily compared to what I've invested in the store. And because things are overpriced, in your opinion, it allows people to just copy at will. Like anything, someone can come along and copy something without investing in the rights to the physical product or the R&D behind it and sell it for less money but that doesn't make it ethical just because you find the original price too high.

Shawn
electricmusicstore
electricmusicstore wrote:
Like anything, someone can come along and copy something without investing in the rights to the physical product or the R&D behind it and sell it for less money but that doesn't make it ethical just because you find the original price too high.

Shawn


BTW, yes, I recognize the irony in that statement. But I think I pointed out above that the work I'm referring to is Roman's work, not Don's original work. Let's not make a 3rd topic. It has already been discussed many times.

Shawn
pre55ure
Tobb - I think you are correct about the 259. It appears to follow both the vinatge one and Roman's version (which also follows the vintage one).

As far as I can tell, the 292C looks like an exact copy of the one that EMS sells (which obviously isn't the vintage layout).

IDK maybe that doesn't bother anyone else, but undercutting another modular synth company by making the same product (maybe it's not - but it certainly looks like it is) feels wrong to me.

I'm having a hard time seeing how this is any different than Behringer releasing clones of the Roland modular stuff that Malekko took the time and energy to redo.
CliffordMilk
Good news
weedywhizz
Hi Shawn,

to sum up:

- if Roman takes Buchla's modules for which Buchla / Don himself, whoever invested in R&D, panel design etc to clone their modules to make profit = totally fine in every aspect (ethics etc)

- if someone else now clones Romans clones = bad idea, the devil will get me.

To me it sounds more like cherry-picking when you say its fine to clone a 259 and 281 vintage module but not the other modules because they were made by Roman, who at least cloned the functionality, the panel and maybe a few other things. Roman took advantage of what already has been done by Buchla on the 259 and 281 by fully cloning them (ethics), at least panels and stuff from other modules....ethics...and nobody complained.

The initial idea was to give European customers much better access to Buchla 200 series PCBs. It honestly sucks to shop around in 10 different shops, pay VAT and postage etc to build a single module with all its "special" parts. eBay, Mouser, Digikey, ElectricDruid, Thonk just to name a few.
Thats what I'm now trying to consolidate.
In the early days when you took over the EMS shop I sent an email to you asking about some kind of wholesale to allow European customers to buy those PCBs in an European store without the hassle of customs, VAT etc.
You declined which is totally fine but didn't stop my one-stop-shop idea.
Now a few months later I decided to offer those PCBs in Europe by doing them myself. As someone who is building 200r modules for half a decade now it still bugs me to buy stuff all around the world. Its time now!

The 292c PCBs are indeed about 90% identical, what I've changed so far is:

-wider traces
- traces for sure aren't exactly the same. Still need to route manually
-slightly larger holes on all pads to allow solder to flow better through the holes when using resistors with thicker leads (KOA Speer as an example)
- Made larger reference designators in TrueType except where it didn't work for better readability (Romans ref-degs are tiny - not getting younger here). TrueType also has "smoother" letters, the ones on Romans boards seem to have "Stroke" or just a different PCB manufacturer. Letters and numbers look different.
...well and if it makes you happy I'll move some of the parts so everyone can clearly identify that this is NOT Romans PCB.

Whats the problem with the color ? Is there a RAL palette of 16.7 million colours to choose from for reference designators and PCB soldermask ?
I didn't choose black because I want the PCBs to look exactly like yours, I did because I like the colour. Seems like some guys prefer blue though.
At the end I don't care what color the PCBs have.


And no - I will not touch modules like the 244 and 25s. I'm only interested in what Buchla offered.
I'm also doing my own BOMs with a few different parts, especially the caps and will offer Mouser carts.

Cheers
Steffen
tobb
electricmusicstore wrote:


Your comments don't contradict anything I've said. Please read my post. I was commenting about the 292c

On Steffen's version it looks almost identical to Roman's board. Even the component silkscreens look as identical as I can see from an online photo. How is that possible?


Ah yes the 292C, hmm yes true,maybe he just cloned it wink

electricmusicstore wrote:

So you change the conversation to prices. That's a totally different thing to discuss. Roman had his reason for his prices and I have mine.


I know exactly why those pcb's where expensive when they where sold by Roman.[/quote]

electricmusicstore wrote:

I bought the stock, store and pcb layouts from Roman. I am trying to pay back the money that I've invested. I've kept the previous prices mostly the same.


I agree with that,but you are just a reseller now,you are not involved into the R&D (that has been paid back),its up to you to maintain/choose your prices,but you have to deal with competition now..and the possibility some guy rip some stuff due to the fact the prices are not cheap is high.

If you drop the prices of your pcb's you will sell more of them,and the risk for copys becomes very low (if you can manufacture more of them its no issue to drop the price)
BugBrand
weedywhizz wrote:
Hi Shawn,

to sum up:

- if Roman takes Buchla's modules for which Buchla / Don himself, whoever invested in R&D, panel design etc to clone their modules to make profit = totally fine in every aspect (ethics etc)

- if someone else now clones Romans clones = bad idea, the devil will get me.

To me it sounds more like cherry-picking when you say its fine to clone a 259 and 281 vintage module but not the other modules because they were made by Roman, who at least cloned the functionality, the panel and maybe a few other things. Roman took advantage of what already has been done by Buchla on the 259 and 281 by fully cloning them (ethics), at least panels and stuff from other modules....ethics...and nobody complained.

The initial idea was to give European customers much better access to Buchla 200 series PCBs. It honestly sucks to shop around in 10 different shops, pay VAT and postage etc to build a single module with all its "special" parts. eBay, Mouser, Digikey, ElectricDruid, Thonk just to name a few.
Thats what I'm now trying to consolidate.
In the early days when you took over the EMS shop I sent an email to you asking about some kind of wholesale to allow European customers to buy those PCBs in an European store without the hassle of customs, VAT etc.
You declined which is totally fine but didn't stop my one-stop-shop idea.
Now a few months later I decided to offer those PCBs in Europe by doing them myself. As someone who is building 200r modules for half a decade now it still bugs me to buy stuff all around the world. Its time now!

The 292c PCBs are indeed about 90% identical, what I've changed so far is:

-wider traces
-slightly larger holes on all pads to allow solder to flow better through the holes when using resistors with thicker leads (KOA Speer as an example)
- Made larger reference designators in TrueType except where it didn't work for better readability (Romans ref-degs are tiny - not getting younger here). TrueType also has "smoother" letters, the ones on Romans boards seem to have "Stroke" or just a different PCB manufacturer. Letters and numbers look different.
...well and if it makes you happy I'll move some of the parts so everyone can clearly identify that this is NOT Romans PCB.

Whats the problem with the color ? Is there a RAL palette of 16.7 million colours to choose from for reference designators and PCB soldermask ?
I didn't choose black because I want the PCBs to look exactly like yours, I did because I like the colour. Seems like some guys prefer blue though.
At the end I don't care what color the PCBs have.


And no - I will not touch modules like the 244 and 25s. I'm only interested in what Buchla offered.
I'm also doing my own BOMs with a few different parts, especially the caps and will offer Mouser carts.

Cheers
Steffen


I believe that copying the 292C board layout (regardless of the PCB being a functional clone) breaks copyright. Hard to enforce of course - but it should be viewed as not right and honour should still play an important part in behaviour within our small scenes.

Do your own layout - then all is OK.
Other factors (clones / prices / etc.) are beside the point in this issue.
weedywhizz
Quote:
Ah yes the 292C, hmm yes true,maybe he just cloned it wink


Done what Roman did with Buchla's 259 and 281
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