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+5 Volts - a dying relict?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author +5 Volts - a dying relict?
Todai
Since I don't understand all the details of module design - but will need a bigger case (who would've thaught?) at some point I'd like to hear some of the experts opinion...


Is +5V a soon to be extinct relict?
cackland
No classification of an expert here, however 5V is a standard voltage that is widely used across all different types of electronic components.
Jumbuktu
That's 'relic'.

If you want certain modules (e.g. Euclidean Circles) you will need 5v, but you don't have to design it into the case. You can use a dongle.
Todai
cackland wrote:
No classification of an expert here, however 5V is a standard voltage that is widely used across all different types of electronic components.


It is...but there are very few new modules using it.

I don't think I saw anything coming out in 2018 that required 5V?
Jumbuktu
Todai wrote:
cackland wrote:
No classification of an expert here, however 5V is a standard voltage that is widely used across all different types of electronic components.


It is...but there are very few new modules using it.

I don't think I saw anything coming out in 2018 that required 5V?


Most of the Rebel Technology stuff seems to use 5v and I think they are still rolling out new modules. Euclidean Circles 2 is about to be released and I am assuming it will need 5v as well.
JohnLRice
Todai wrote:
cackland wrote:
No classification of an expert here, however 5V is a standard voltage that is widely used across all different types of electronic components.


It is...but there are very few new modules using it.

I don't think I saw anything coming out in 2018 that required 5V?
It is fairly rare but the new Dove Audio WTF oscillator that came out late 2018 needs a +5v rail for the eurorack version I believe:
http://dove-audio.com/wtf-module/
RichyHo
Klavis Mixwitch (new in 2018) needs 5V as I found out after returning my first one as faulty d'oh!
Todai
RichyHo wrote:
Klavis Mixwitch (new in 2018) needs 5V as I found out after returning my first one as faulty d'oh!


Ouch... woah
Jumbuktu
I think the TSNM also needs +5v (but I don't have one to be positive about that).

There is lots of info on this topic in the sticky 'Definitive connecting power ...' thread. Someone suggested that Mutable Braids requires +5v, so I wouldn't call it obsolete. I wonder if Plaits needs +5v?
Shledge
Less and less modules seem to need a seperate 5v line, or have been updated later on to get 5V from the 12v rails (like braids).

I got a PSU3 case and only... one module needs 5v. Pointless to provide 4000ma of it! lol Currently have it used purely to plug USB devices in to power them.
UltraViolet
Any module that uses a larger amount of 5V (or 3.3V) current will probably be (and really should be if not) designed to use the 5V case power. Really not sure why it isn't be used more by hybrid modules like those from Mutable Instruments. Putting the digital circuitry on the 5V supply should reduce noise in the rest of the modules in the case. Maybe it doesn't really help much and the smaller connectors are easier to fit on a PCB.
coolshirtdotjpg
Jumbuktu wrote:
I think the TSNM also needs +5v (but I don't have one to be positive about that).

There is lots of info on this topic in the sticky 'Definitive connecting power ...' thread. Someone suggested that Mutable Braids requires +5v, so I wouldn't call it obsolete. I wonder if Plaits needs +5v?


Only older versions of braids (which is discontinued) used 5V, which is why mutable made an adapter. Later versions do not. Probably he just used an on-board voltage regulator.
Todai
UltraViolet wrote:
Any module that uses a larger amount of 5V (or 3.3V) current will probably be (and really should be if not) designed to use the 5V case power. Really not sure why it isn't be used more by hybrid modules like those from Mutable Instruments. Putting the digital circuitry on the 5V supply should reduce noise in the rest of the modules in the case. Maybe it doesn't really help much and the smaller connectors are easier to fit on a PCB.


Interesting point about the noise! Do you have any sources / tests / white papers about that?

I just double checked on MG - after selling Euclidean Circles I'm using none of my potential 2 x 4000 mA of 5V.

hmmm.....
pichenettes
UltraViolet wrote:
Any module that uses a larger amount of 5V (or 3.3V) current will probably be (and really should be if not) designed to use the 5V case power. Really not sure why it isn't be used more by hybrid modules like those from Mutable Instruments. Putting the digital circuitry on the 5V supply should reduce noise in the rest of the modules in the case. Maybe it doesn't really help much and the smaller connectors are easier to fit on a PCB.


Technically, a separate supply rail for digital is a superior choice. If I had to design a format from scratch, I'll do that!

The problem is that it's always been an afterthought in the Eurorack format/standard. Back when I was selling modules requiring +5V I got so many support requests - people whose power distribution board did not provide +5V and who had to buy an adapter, people who moved a module to a different row and thought they broke it, and more frustrating, power distributions boards to which it was impossible to add a +5V adapter, or whose built-in +5V rail was underpowered.
kay_k
Actually I am planning to make future modules and mod my modules that currently leach on the +12V line to be user configurable in the next hardware revision. (i.e. jumper or swich for internal/external +5V)
asymmetric load is shit. I am guilty but I want to make things better in the future.
Shledge
It would make sense to have 5v seperate. There are so many cases out now that provide 5v for people who need it.

It's also a good means to rack stuff like arduino based eurorack projects, or anything that doesn't really need +/-12v. I'm doing just that with a shift-register based sequencer that I'm building.
Zentek
pichenettes wrote:
UltraViolet wrote:
Any module that uses a larger amount of 5V (or 3.3V) current will probably be (and really should be if not) designed to use the 5V case power. Really not sure why it isn't be used more by hybrid modules like those from Mutable Instruments. Putting the digital circuitry on the 5V supply should reduce noise in the rest of the modules in the case. Maybe it doesn't really help much and the smaller connectors are easier to fit on a PCB.


Technically, a separate supply rail for digital is a superior choice. If I had to design a format from scratch, I'll do that!

The problem is that it's always been an afterthought in the Eurorack format/standard. Back when I was selling modules requiring +5V I got so many support requests - people whose power distribution board did not provide +5V and who had to buy an adapter, people who moved a module to a different row and thought they broke it, and more frustrating, power distributions boards to which it was impossible to add a +5V adapter, or whose built-in +5V rail was underpowered.


All the support issues mentioned should be balanced with the horrendous power waste that many modules do by dropping the 12V to 5v (or even lower: 3V3 circuits) with a passive regulation.
To put things clearly, with passive regulation (a.k.a. linear), a single watt of 5V made that way draws 2.4 watts, meaning that 1,4 watt is wasted as heat in your case draining your 12V supply for nothing useful.
I understand that for reasons mentioned, the 5V is not appreciated by manufacturers.
In my humble opinion, what should prevail is to enforce that any case has a 5V rail, and educate users about the reasons why.

In my designs, I always use the 5V when needed for digital, whatever the consumption; every milliamp counts.
The only exception is when the consumption of the 5V is too high, I implement a high-efficiency switch-mode supply in the module to make the 12 to 5 conversion.

Otherwise, I also designed a supply dongle that converts the negative 12V rail to 5V.
It takes the power where there is usually plenty unused and avoids taking it from the positive 12V rail which is usually the most loaded.
tom_of_finland
kay_k wrote:
Actually I am planning to make future modules and mod my modules that currently leach on the +12V line to be user configurable in the next hardware revision. (i.e. jumper or swich for internal/external +5V)
asymmetric load is shit. I am guilty but I want to make things better in the future.


Most (maybe all?) of the Noise Engineering voice modules have the option to run on the 5v rail by flipping the little switch on the back of the module. They still take some power from the 12v, but it puts most of the processing load on the 5v. Helpful if you have like a Make Noise case and find you're out of juice on the 12v side of things.

It's a rad feature that they just kinda put a small blurb in all the manuals.
ersatzplanet
As more digital based modules become more prevalent, the +5V will become more useful. Most digital modules have a on-board jumper that allows the digital sections to derive power from the +5V rail and switch to +12v for older systems that don't have the +5V.

Whenever possible, digital modules should run off the +5V. This adds some (though not a ton) of isolation from the digital noise generated by them from bleeding into the other +12V using analog modules in your rig. This also lessen the load on the +12v supply of course too.

Many systems that do provide +5V, often supply a very meager amount of it. This is often in the under 500mA level. As a maker of a USB Lamp and Power Access module, I have to constantly remind people buying them to check their supplies to see if they have enough power to drive external devices they plan on connecting to them. Some cases are rather pitiful (TipTop Mantis=300mA, uZeus=170mA for example) while others have a decent 1A (Make Noise and Pittsburgh for example) to the larger range of the Doepfer PSU3 at 4Amps.

The +5V rail is not going to go away. I think its use will instead increase.
Just another rookie
Klavis no drain.
Draws power from the -12 Rail.

I thought it was the perfect solution. If you don’t have 5v built in.

A couple of things I’ve built have on board 5v.
Bastl noise 7805
Frequency central wave runner. 78L05 & 79L05
(And I haven’t built much!)



P.s.

Relikt=relic. German/English.
Todai+Berlin= hmmm.....
sad banana
Keltie
mordax data has a jumper option, and mine is set to take 5v from the rail, rather than convert the 12v.

I'm a power moron, but from what my fluffy non EE brain can gather from the power threads, unbalanced +ve and -ve loads can lead to noise as the difference ends up on the 0v.

So 5v in general, and the ample provision of the doepfer psu3 in particular seems a good thing.
mskala
I think use of the +5V supply is becoming more popular, not less, as the world moves more towards digital modules and as most new Eurorack powered cases include +5V (which wasn't always true in the past).
UltraViolet
pichenettes wrote:
UltraViolet wrote:
Any module that uses a larger amount of 5V (or 3.3V) current will probably be (and really should be if not) designed to use the 5V case power. Really not sure why it isn't be used more by hybrid modules like those from Mutable Instruments. Putting the digital circuitry on the 5V supply should reduce noise in the rest of the modules in the case. Maybe it doesn't really help much and the smaller connectors are easier to fit on a PCB.


Technically, a separate supply rail for digital is a superior choice. If I had to design a format from scratch, I'll do that!

The problem is that it's always been an afterthought in the Eurorack format/standard. Back when I was selling modules requiring +5V I got so many support requests - people whose power distribution board did not provide +5V and who had to buy an adapter, people who moved a module to a different row and thought they broke it, and more frustrating, power distributions boards to which it was impossible to add a +5V adapter, or whose built-in +5V rail was underpowered.


That is a very good reason. Obviously not using a separate supply for all the digital circuitry is working well or it would be a big issue that people would be complaining about. In a perfect world there would be 3 separate power supplies:

1) +12V/-12V for the analog circuitry
2) +5 (or really maybe +3.3V would be better at this point in time) for the digital circuitry to isolate the digital switching noise from the analog part.
3) A super low noise supply with large audio grade capacitors just for the analog to digital (ADC) and digital to analog (DAC) converters. They are the most sensitive of all to any fluctuations in the supply voltage.

There is a UTube review of a HiFiBerry audio board for the Raspberry Pi where using a a separate low noise supply made a dramatic difference in the audio quality. But, this is the worst case situation of isolating a DAC from digital noise. Also we are generating sound rather than trying to reproduce it exactly so a tiny amount of noise can just become part of the timbre.
bemushroomed
mskala wrote:
I think use of the +5V supply is becoming more popular, not less


Nope... bought tons of modules 2018, none required +5v, the years before it there were several modules i bought which required it. It's gone on mutable instrument modules, totally gone on the digital modules i bought (bought plenty of them).
Rex Coil 7
bemushroomed wrote:
mskala wrote:
I think use of the +5V supply is becoming more popular, not less


Nope... bought tons of modules 2018, none required +5v, the years before it there were several modules i bought which required it. It's gone on mutable instrument modules, totally gone on the digital modules i bought (bought plenty of them).
So because the modules you bought don't require 5v then that means 5v is becoming less popular? Well if that ain't some narcissistic shyit!

Just proves an old adage I had espoused decades ago;

... perception = 100% of reality ...

seriously, i just don't get it
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