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Are all PCIe slots short (or are there long ones)?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> General Gear  
Author Are all PCIe slots short (or are there long ones)?
Rex Coil 7
I'm looking at obtaining a PCI (PCIe) sound card for my project computer. One I am eyeballing is the RME Hammerfall, which is a PCI card.

My motherboard is an ASUS Prime Z370-A. It has several expansion slots, and per the manual the short ones are PCIe 3.0/2.0 1 ...... the long ones are PCIe 3.0/2.0 16.

Can I use a PCI card in the long PCIe slots? The manual doesn't say anything about this. The reason I ask is I can obtain a used RME PCI card for under $280. A PCIe RME card is just under $500, used. Although the PCIe card boasts latency as low as 0.7 milliseconds (wow!) and the PCI card goes as low as 1.5 milliseconds of latency, I'd like to know if the PCI option is available to me. (but ... 0.7 milliseconds/PCIe ... zing!)



JediDJ
You mean to use old PCI in PCIE slot ?
It's a no no !

You can use short PCIeX4 card in a long PCIeX16 slot.
Rex Coil 7
JediDJ wrote:
You mean to use old PCI in PCIE slot ?
It's a no no !
Well, no ... a new PCI device (aka "modern") in a PCIe slot. Would that make any difference?

seriously, i just don't get it
andybizarre
Well, PCI cards are ancient by today`s standards. You can`t use those in PCIe slots, regardless of their size. You would damage both the card and your motherboard.



Regarding latency: it is perhaps better to measure latency in samples instead of milliseconds. Buffers have a certain size in samples which correspond to a certain amount of time relative to the given sample frequency. A buffer of 32 samples is something like 0.7ms in 96kHz and 1.5ms in 48kHz (I didn`t do the exact math, but you`ll get my point).
Notron fn
Adapters (would need to hack case)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0024CV3SA/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_U_x_rRVvCb6HAHP FF

Or an expansion chassis?

https://ebay.us/h9EQ9O
Rex Coil 7
Notron fn wrote:
Adapters (would need to hack case)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0024CV3SA/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_U_x_rRVvCb6HAHP FF

Or an expansion chassis?

https://ebay.us/h9EQ9O
The adapter looks viable. Price is right as well. Does the use of an adapter affect performance in any way?

The expansion chassis could also work, but the added cost ($150.00) makes the attraction of the lower priced PCI cards evaporate.

Good suggestions though! Thank you for putting in the time it took to dig all of that up for me!!

andybizarre wrote:
Well, PCI cards are ancient by today`s standards. You can`t use those in PCIe slots, regardless of their size. You would damage both the card and your motherboard.



Regarding latency: it is perhaps better to measure latency in samples instead of milliseconds. Buffers have a certain size in samples which correspond to a certain amount of time relative to the given sample frequency. A buffer of 32 samples is something like 0.7ms in 96kHz and 1.5ms in 48kHz (I didn`t do the exact math, but you`ll get my point).
I understand that (the latency bit), I was attempting to be brief when I posted the latency figures, brevity is rare in my posts! But thanks for putting up that information ... there is an entire planet of readers that information of that type will help out. It is good to be succinct, as you were in your reply.

thumbs up

So moving forward here ...

What's even more odd is that the RME Hammerfall PCI card has "key slots" in the edge connector on both ends! It looks as though it would fit in the PCI 2.0 32 bit slot .. AND .. the PCI Express x16. Take a look ....

LINK = https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HDSP9632--rme-hammerfall-hdsp- 9632

However, on second look the two slots appear to have very different numbers of contacts ... the PCI Express x16 slot looks as though it has far more contacts than the PCI 2.0 32 Bit slot. So it appears to be a complete No-Go.

(exasperated long sigh "Oy ....").

~Gathering my self here~ ... Ok then, it appears I'm going to go with a PCIe audio interface card. Any suggestions beyond the RME HPSPE AIO (PCIe)? I'm planning on expanding ~which ever~ card via ADAT, so ADAT I/O is mandatory. I really don't want to spend a lot of money on the card, so the over-$1K units are not eligible as a choice.

Something like this is good (link below). ADAT I/O and multi-pin connectors for analog I/O (and headphones, MIDI, etc..). The cost of a new one is steeper than I'm wanting to go with, but used may be viable.

LINK = https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HDSPe9632--rme-hdspe-aio

I have access to one of the HDSPE-AIO cards for less than $500 (used). I'm ok with used (unless there is some reason I should not go that way). I reckon since there are essentially no moving parts, there is not too much risk involved with buying a used unit, given it isn't beat up or obvious visible damage.

I've sure read a lot of very positive reviews by end-users of the RME units, and owners seem to be quite loyal to them as well.

But I am open to suggestions!

thumbs up
Notron fn
I have a second hand raydat hanging off my Mac Mini as its sound card.

Second hand RME is a great way to go.
Rex Coil 7
Notron fn wrote:
I have a second hand raydat hanging off my Mac Mini as its sound card.

Second hand RME is a great way to go.
Sooper cool. thumbs up
andybizarre
I had no idea that RME is that expensive in the US. The HDSP AiO is like 600 Swiss Francs incl. VAT over here, which is 600 US dollars. I got my PCIe Raydat second hand incl. wordclock expansion for about 350. They pop up quite regularly here.
Do you know of a way to source stuff like that in Europe?
Rex Coil 7
I hath snaggeth yon RME HDSPe AIO (rev 1.4) ... for $450.00 shipped! They sell new for $899.00 pretty much anywhere you look.




The seller (eBay) had it at $520.00 shipped, I offered $450.00 shipped and inside of 30 minutes the offer was accepted. I sent the munnies, I rec'd the tracking number. Seller has hundreds of transactions, been an eBay member since 2008, with a 100% positive feedback rating.

Now, I'm waiting on a reply for the offer I made on a Behringer ADA8200 (ADAT equipped ... 8in/8out). These things have so many great reviews and high owner ratings, Sweetwater and Amazon rate them at 4.5 stars (out of 5), hundreds of glowing reviews by users. Many users pair this preamp up with RME PCI or PCIe interface cards as well. They sell new for $229.00, I've offered the seller $175.00. We'll see what happens.

(C'mon man .. hurry up ... I want to get this done before the Superbowl starts!)

thumbs up

andybizarre wrote:
I had no idea that RME is that expensive in the US. The HDSP AiO is like 600 Swiss Francs incl. VAT over here, which is 600 US dollars. I got my PCIe Raydat second hand incl. wordclock expansion for about 350. They pop up quite regularly here.

Do you know of a way to source stuff like that in Europe?
Well, no, not myself anyway. I know there are plenty of ways to go about it though. The thing that kills a lot of purchases is the US Dollar to ~whatever~ (Euro, Brit Pound, DM, Swiss Francs, whatever) and then the shipping. If Paypal is used they tag on about another 5% (or more) to the exchange rate as well. The other thing is if for some reason the item needs to be returned to the seller the return shipping is a hard hit.

I did ~ok~ on this one, I mean I bought it at essentially half price, and it appears to be in good shape. I suppose.

cool
peripatitis
The multiface/digiface had an updated pcie (1 lane ) option to replace the old pci format. I guess it is the same as the AIO card you bought. Does this fit to a new motherboard?
I might be facing a similar problem when I update my pc.

The multiface/digiface btw is a serious soundcard a lot more stable than the later usb/firewire rme cards offering a lot smaller latencies.

Compared to my firewire 800 it was night and day and I don't even want to think how those usb interfaces would perform comparatively.
Notron fn
I can always recommend the Motu 828 MkII.


It can be used standalone as a lightpipe ad da converter

—Note, it’s dc coupled so cv gear friendly

They seem to be quite bombproof.



This is how mine was packed when shipped cross country.

Bent rack ears? This probably caused bent rack ears on the gear it collided with.
Rex Coil 7
Notron fn wrote:
This is how mine was packed when shipped cross country.
The MSN Smack! <--- to the person that shipped it to you ... evil

Anyhow ....

I think this RME PCIe card is a good match for the rest of the new computer I'm building.

** ASUS Prime Z370-A motherboard.
** Intel i7-8700 "Coffee Lake" CPU - 6 cores, 12 thread, 3.4ghz.
** Cooler Master CPU air cooler.
** 16GB Corsair "Vengence" (2x8GB) DDR4 3000mhz RAM.
** 250GB Samsung EVO 970 - M.2 NVMe NAND SSD "boot drive".
** 1TB Toshiba P300 HDD mass storage - SATA3 7,200 rpm (but I'm adding more, I'll be making up some type of backup system, possibly RAID).
** 500 watt EGVA "Bronze 80" rated PSU.
** Win10.
** Ableton Live Suite 9.7.7
** RME HDSPe AIO PCIe audio interface w/ADAT.
** Behringer ADA8200 ADAT I/O rack unit (hopefully!)
** Ableton Push1.
** Akai APC40MkII mixer/controller.
** MIDI Fighters "Twister" MIDI controller.
** MIDI Fighters "3D" MIDI controller.

So I think this system is very well balanced with components known to work well with one another. Did the entire pile of gear for about $2,000 total. I think I did pretty good!

Now I just have to put the damned thing together. lol

thumbs up Thanks so much for the guidance, everyone! thumbs up
Rex Coil 7
dbl post
andybizarre
Congrats! Please make sure to use only Toshiba-compatible optical connectors. We discussed ADAT cables in this thread: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212642

When you got everything up & running, please report back and tell us how you like your new audio workstation!
Rex Coil 7
andybizarre wrote:
Congrats! Please make sure to use only Toshiba-compatible optical connectors. We discussed ADAT cables in this thread: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212642

When you got everything up & running, please report back and tell us how you like your new audio workstation!
Thank you!

Everything regarding my entire system is in the project thread linked in my signature titled "Modular computer". So just click on that and you'll be taken directly to the project thread which includes updates, construction methods, component and parts sources, specifications, and so on. As well as quite a few pictures.

SCORED THE BEHRINGER ADA8200 just minutes ago!


Seller had it at $220.00, I offered $175.00 shipped and my offer was just accepted! I paid the man, so we're on our way! This pic is right from the ad itself, it's the one I just bought.



So it appears I'm good to go .... well, other than the "lightpipe" ADAT cables. Since Member *andybizarre gave me some guidance on that I'll be looking for a few of those now! (Thank you!). I'll be sure to hit up the thread you linked!!

It's been a good day today
... thumbs up
JediDJ
MOTU 828 mkIIs often had problems with burned out firewire.
Very problematic device.
Better don't plug firewire on this at all.

MKIII was an improvement.
JohnLRice
Notron fn wrote:


This is how mine was packed when shipped cross country.
angry
People who pack like this should be put into a box and shipped across country to see how THAT works out for them! hihi
Panason
I bought a used Roland controller keyboard and when it arrived the pitch stick had punctured the cardboard box and was literally sticking out.
Amazingly it had not broken and worked fine. Roland FTW..... but I actually prefer wheels, lol.
Panason
Notron fn wrote:
I have a second hand raydat hanging off my Mac Mini as its sound card.


Is this with a thunderbolt adapter or what?
gruebleengourd
Problem above already solved but just for the info

The RME PCI cards do not work with any of the PCI-e to PCI adapters I've found. I tried quite a few because I didn't want to have to upgrade my PCI HDSP for a new motherboard.

If you don't already have the card, you should definitely spend the extra dollars to get the PCI-e version. While you can still get PCI legacy motherboards, it's not worth building around your old soundcard.
Rex Coil 7
gruebleengourd wrote:
Problem above already solved but just for the info

The RME PCI cards do not work with any of the PCI-e to PCI adapters I've found. I tried quite a few because I didn't want to have to upgrade my PCI HDSP for a new motherboard.

If you don't already have the card, you should *definately spend the extra dollars to get the PCI-e version. While you can still get PCI legacy motherboards, it's not worth building around your old soundcard.
*definitely cool

Rex Coil 7 wrote:
I hath snaggeth yon RME HDSPe AIO (rev 1.4) ... for $450.00 shipped! They sell new for $899.00 pretty much anywhere you look.




The seller (eBay) had it at $520.00 shipped, I offered $450.00 shipped and inside of 30 minutes the offer was accepted. I sent the munnies, I rec'd the tracking number. Seller has hundreds of transactions, been an eBay member since 2008, with a 100% positive feedback rating.
peripatitis
JediDJ wrote:
MOTU 828 mkIIs often had problems with burned out firewire.
Very problematic device.
Better don't plug firewire on this at all.

MKIII was an improvement.


This was also true for RME's firewire 800 series I believe.


JohnLRice wrote:
Notron fn wrote:


This is how mine was packed when shipped cross country.
angry
People who pack like this should be put into a box and shipped across country to see how THAT works out for them! hihi


thumbs up
wickfut
Notron fn wrote:
I can always recommend the Motu 828 MkII.


It can be used standalone as a lightpipe ad da converter

—Note, it’s dc coupled so cv gear friendly

They seem to be quite bombproof.



This is how mine was packed when shipped cross country.

Bent rack ears? This probably caused bent rack ears on the gear it collided with.


Damn.

I had a Modwright Valve hifi Preamp worth about £2000 sent to me in a box like a cornflake box once. Luckily only the power switch was damaged and Modwright sent me a replacement for free.
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