Lots of people selling MI Elements... Why?

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

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thee ghost ov n_phay
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Post by thee ghost ov n_phay » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:32 pm

I just bought one to use with my Doepfer ribbon controller. I really like it and can't see meyself selling it.

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Post by brandonlogic » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:47 pm

Zymos wrote:
brandonlogic wrote:
I guess it just didn’t sit right in the context of the other sounds I’m my patches.
Referring to Elements or SMR?

Either way, didn't mean to call you out, every approach is equally valid IMO.
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Post by selfdestroyer » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:59 pm

I was one of those Noobs that bought Elements as my first module.. which is funny now that I think about it. But that being said, I recently pulled mine out of my case and put in a Atom. I love a few different modes and hardly ever need to touch it physically since I do most control with LFOs and what not. So the small controls are not a problem for me.

I have had the Atom for about a month and I just keep putting off selling my Elements. I h ave noticed quite a few DIY Elements being sold on Reverb and was going to wait for that to die down some before I sell mine. Hell, I might just keep it.
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Post by BasementRob » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:57 pm

brandonlogic wrote:
honeyb wrote:It is large, maybe? Free up rack space?

Some people think Rings gets them close enough.
this is why i sold mine.

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Post by BasementRob » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:19 pm

I recently bought a used Elements for 330€ and I noticed that it has a very low output volume, which I find a bit disappointing. If I don´t turn up my speakers very high, (which also increases the noise) the output signal is just too low to get excited about it.. So I´m thinking about selling it again.

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Post by Videographics » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:11 am

For me, looking at Elements makes me think about the digital vs analog sounds I’m going for in my rack. I tend to reserve digital in my racks for voltage control modules like Stages (even though it has hidden in it a killer harmonic oscillator) and effects like delays and reverbs. I also think about how cases, by definition, become less modular as the modules in them get bigger and bigger.

When I see these bigger modules, I instinctively try to dissect them in my mind to think about whether or not they’re just a conglomeration of smaller modules I’d prefer to buy separately. I understand how in modeling synthesis the exciter and resonator are tightly linked, but in the case of Elements I know that every day I’d be imagining the resonator as a separate module. Or I’d be wishing I could bypass the resonator (essentially wasting it) so I could instead use some other resonator in my rack.

Lastly, for modeling synthesis, I can’t help comparing any modeling synth I use to the Structure synth in Logic Pro X / Mainstage (for $29). (Love that thing!) And once I’m there, I start questioning why I’m thinking about doing anything digital in Eurorack, figuring for the times I really wanted Elements in the modular world, I’d dial up the VCV rack version and pipe it in wth an Expert Sleepers ES-8. At some point digital is digital, right?

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Post by kesserich » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:58 am

Videographics wrote: Lastly, for modeling synthesis, I can’t help comparing any modeling synth I use to the Structure synth in Logic Pro X / Mainstage (for $29). (Love that thing!) And once I’m there, I start questioning why I’m thinking about doing anything digital in Eurorack, figuring for the times I really wanted Elements in the modular world, I’d dial up the VCV rack version and pipe it in wth an Expert Sleepers ES-8. At some point digital is digital, right?
This speaks to my earlier point about how to me Elements, Rings, Braids and Clouds all sound like VST plugins. I own a bunch of digital eurorack modules but they are things like Akemie's Taiko or NE's Manis Iteratus - stuff that doesn't have any kind of VST equivalent.

I get the desire for hardware but I've always viewed Eurorack as an expensive vector for getting sounds you can't find in any DAW. People who enjoy MI's sound aesthetic could save a ton of money by just sticking to software, so i'm always surprised how many units they sell.

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Post by lisa » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:22 am

kesserich wrote:I've always viewed Eurorack as an expensive vector for getting sounds you can't find in any DAW.
Are people really going for Eurorack mainly for the sound and not for the workflow?

You're not using your sound sources the same way when you're patching your modular as when you're making a track in your DAW, are you? I'm certainly not, anyway. I like digital voices in Eurorack but my Eurorack based music sounds very different from my music that originates in Ableton Live.
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Post by kesserich » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:57 pm

lisa wrote:
kesserich wrote:I've always viewed Eurorack as an expensive vector for getting sounds you can't find in any DAW.
Are people really going for Eurorack mainly for the sound and not for the workflow?

You're not using your sound sources the same way when you're patching your modular as when you're making a track in your DAW, are you? I'm certainly not, anyway. I like digital voices in Eurorack but my Eurorack based music sounds very different from my music that originates in Ableton Live.
I mean, that's why i buy eurorack. With stuff like VCV Rack, Reaktor blocks, and Bitwig(where you can modulate just about anything), I don't think there is workflow distinction these days. There's a physicality difference, sure. And definitely a price difference.

I also think in smaller communities like eurorack there is a higher tendency for manufacturers to make weird shit and take more chances than say Native Instruments. This is mainly what attracts me and lets me justify the ca$h.

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Post by MindMachine » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:43 pm

I have no computer in my studio so I need a Rings or Elements in my racks in order to get some of those timbres.

As for many Elements for sale... it is big and many want the flavor of the month I reckon. I would love to have a few and do a live ensemble type thing with my bass through the ole EH Ravish pedal. But that would be a bit pricey and require some additional power as well.

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Post by Videographics » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:16 am

lisa wrote:You're not using your sound sources the same way when you're patching your modular as when you're making a track in your DAW, are you.
I absolutely agree. I really love how one’s perspective on everything seems to change as you start patching. I think we can all agree patching is essential to the modular experience.

What I’m interested in is what motivates people who are obviously comfortable with complicated technology and digital devices to completely reject everything a computer or tablet might offer their music.

I also think it’s interesting the way some (I think inappropriately) equate using a computer with using a DAW. I often use computers in live performance but never a DAW. Decades before modern DAWs, computers were contributing to live performances. (I think of thinks like Laurie Spiegel’s Music Mouse.) Now we have MAX/MSP, Pure Data, VCV Rack, Mainstage, and countless other sequencers, arpeggiators, and effects [non DAW apps] that run on computers and tablets. And these often have I/O options, user interfaces, and capabilities that run rings around anything digital in Eurorack or desktop devices. I’m not saying these people should use computers or tablets instead of digital Eurorack modules. I’m just suggesting that people’s knee jerk disdain for computers and tablets begins to look increasingly misplaced as things like Expert Sleepers ES-8 and FH-2 modules, and VCV Rack, increasingly bridge the gap that has historically separated the modular world from MIDI controllers, computers, and tablets. And this misplaced disdain becomes increasingly evident as we compare these new options with large digital Eurorack modules like Elements.

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Post by iheartmodular » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:06 am

main reason for not wanting to make music with computer is that i sit at computer all day doing work and must have some time away from the screen because too much not good for you

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Post by Hyberus » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:22 pm

After my original Doepfer A-100 system Elements was the next thing I bought. You'd have to kill me to get me to part with it . . .
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Post by lisa » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:57 pm

Videographics wrote:What I’m interested in is what motivates people who are obviously comfortable with complicated technology and digital devices to completely reject everything a computer or tablet might offer their music.
People will say that they use a computer all day at work so they don't want to be staring on a computer screen when they are making music. They will also tell you this on online forums that they somehow access not using a screen. :hihi:

I think, unfortunately, it's often really about two other aspects: 1. the love of gear and 2. the power of computer software. The love of gear is self-evident; people just like to buy toys. The power of computer software is darker and seldom mentioned; when you use a computer to make music you have no excuse for not making great sounding, full featured tracks. When you're into Eurorack there is a community that has a tolerance for rather poor sounding jams without any kind of thoughtful arrangement. If the bar for acceptable music is high then anyone can feel discouraged, and vice versa.

Thirdly, modular is an exclusive club and people like to be part of something exclusive. That's why you can see tons of complaints every time it's being popularized somehow (by a popular youtuber or a TV show, for instance).
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Post by Videographics » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:19 pm

iheartmodular wrote:main reason for not wanting to make music with computer is that i sit at computer all day doing work and must have some time away from the screen because too much not good for you
I hear this so often and I feel for people for whom this is an issue. I’m usually fine as long as the computer is well-integrated into my rack and no longer the focus. It also helps that I boot from a dedicated ‘music’ hard drive with no notifications or productivity apps, and I turn off internet access. For me, turning off the internet/wi-fi and silencing my notifications is what gives me the most relief from being plugged in to a day at the computer doing email, web browsing, and productivity apps. Not using a full blown DAW also helps me avoid making the computer the focus of my music making.

Although I often use my rack without a computer, when I’m going for digital sounds, I don’t deny the computer’s utility. But I find having the right interfaces (ES-8/FH-2/MOTU) to make the computer fully patchable is essential! (Each ES-8 can scale to 64 patch points!) Investing in a few of these interfaces is a whole lot cheaper than buying racks of digital modules. And, for digital, this approach can significantly increase the physical patching possibilities of your rack when compared to ‘fixed’ digital hardware modules like Elements.

If I was truly feeling maxed out by computer technology, I’m not sure turning to screen/menu-based Eurorack modules, desktop samplers and sequencers would get me far enough away from from it. In those situations I tend to redirect myself toward hanging with friends or playing acoustic instruments. And likewise, I feel more inclined to work with an analog modular setup than one with lots of digital modules — even ones like Elements that don’t have a screen. Unlike with analog modules, with digital modules like Elements, I just can’t stop thinking about the more powerful and flexible computer-based alternatives.

If you think you need to be physically patching lots of digital, maybe try an experiment: see how it feels if you shut down all your productivity apps, notifications and internet access, and immerse yourself in VCV Rack, MAX/MSP or Pure Data for a bit. Then add in an ES-8 to integrate that into your rack. Doing this before investing in a rack full of digital modules like Elements could save enough to go on a nice vacation.
Last edited by Videographics on Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by mathomas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:20 pm

Funny, I have a fellow modular buddy who is going to double-up on Elements, and I think it’s a great idea. It’s a very deep module (yeah, and wide, too ;-)). The time is right for this, apparently, if prices are taking a nosedive. It actually has me thinking.

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Post by mathomas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:25 pm

Oh, and Elements is awesome. I’ll just leave this here...

[video][/video]

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Post by Videographics » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:54 pm

lisa wrote:I think, unfortunately, it's often really about two other aspects: 1. the love of gear and 2. the power of computer software. The love of gear is self-evident; people just like to buy toys. The power of computer software is darker and seldom mentioned; when you use a computer to make music you have no excuse for not making great sounding, full featured tracks. When you're into Eurorack there is a community that has a tolerance for rather poor sounding jams without any kind of thoughtful arrangement. If the bar for acceptable music is high then anyone can feel discouraged, and vice versa.
Thanks, lisa! I think this is really great insight into the cyberphobia (hyelophobia?) epidemic sweeping the world of electronic music!

If someone appreciates digital sounds and experimental electronic music enough to purchase a module like Elements, I think it’s really sad to think the mere existence of DAWs might prevent them from exploring all the other great things a computer can offer for electronic music experimentation.

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Post by bwhittington » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:05 pm

Videographics wrote:Lastly, for modeling synthesis, I can’t help comparing any modeling synth I use to the Structure synth in Logic Pro X / Mainstage (for $29). (Love that thing!)
To me you just raised the perfect argument for hardware. I love the sound of Structure, but I’ve always wanted more programmable control over its parameters. A physical interface with cv offers something quite a bit more alive in my use than a static patch in Logic. Or maybe I’m just missing how you assign controllers to individual parameters in Structure? If something like that we’re possible, I’d be into learning how!

My one dislike if Elements is that it doesn’t quite feel like the lab-experiment side of building your own sounds that I like about modular synths, but i sure do love what it does!

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Post by electricanada » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:02 pm

mathomas wrote:It’s a very deep module (yeah, and wide, too ;-)).
Richard Pryor approved this post.
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Post by mathomas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:25 pm

electricanada wrote:
mathomas wrote:It’s a very deep module (yeah, and wide, too ;-)).
Richard Pryor approved this post.
:miley:

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Post by Prunesquallor » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:15 am

mathomas wrote:Oh, and Elements is awesome. I’ll just leave this here...

[video][/video]
:yay: :love: :hail:
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Post by Videographics » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:51 am

bwhittington wrote:Or maybe I’m just missing how you assign controllers to individual parameters in Structure? If something like that we’re possible, I’d be into learning how!
This is how...

The ES-8 gives you patchable CV and audio I/O in Eurorack for whatever you're running on the computer. For VCV Rack (and things like Audulus, Max/MSP, Pure Data, etc.) you're working with fully patchable CV and audio for all your components. But the ES-8's patchable CV inputs can also be converted to MIDI, and then used to control soft synths like Sculpture. There are literally hundreds of MIDI-controllable parameters in Sculpture can be put under CV control using the jacks on the ES-8. And the assignments happen just as they would with any other MIDI controller in MainStage.

There are few if any limitations patching things like VCV Rack into your Eurorack, but there are some limitations when doing this kind of thing with conventional virtual synths like Sculpture. The main limitation is that you generally can't run audio-rate signals into the control inputs. So even though Sculpture offers an incredible range of controllable parameters and stereo audio outputs, like most conventional soft synths, it has no audio inputs. For that you'll want to go back to VCV Rack or some other digital synthesis environment like Audulus, Max/MSP, Pure Data, etc.

And don't forget, once you're setup with an ES-8 to work with VCV Rack or soft synths like Sculpture, you'll also have easy access to an entire universe of AU/VST digital audio effects with similar levels of control over parameters. And these effects WILL have audio inputs accessible from your rack. And some will even have separate side chain audio inputs.

(BTW, sorry I was initially referring to Structure when I meant Sculpture.)

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Re: Lots of people selling MI Elements... Why?

Post by 3hands » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:41 pm

My new ep is full of elements. I absolutely love it. I compare it to a sort of updated Korg Prophecy MOSS engine but having it in a modular environment opens it up to so much. And I disagree about it “sounding” like elements. I can put it through my BORG filter or my SEM and it sounds like 2 different animals. Also, elements into rings into clouds... (ducks)
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Re: Lots of people selling MI Elements... Why?

Post by LDT » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:25 am

An exodus? I’ll bite:
I don’t see an exodus at all, but if there was one, I would imagine it would refer to some of the many people who got into it, for running rings through clouds and stare at blinking lights in company of succulents. And perhaps some of these people found other interests now.
But really, I don’t see it. Remember, the more people are into this, the more modules will continuously be put for sale.

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