MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Line Level (iPad) directly to Black Output Module-it works!
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion  
Author Line Level (iPad) directly to Black Output Module-it works!
helder
I always read that line level is too low for eurorack level, but I simply tried to connect the headphone output of my iPad (used as a drum machine) into the stereo in of Erica Synth's Black Output module and it sounds great! Rockin' Banana! Should it NOT work?

thanks.
standudinski
are you listening to the headphones out on the erica synths? if so, you are in fact amplifying your input by a module designed to do so. try plugging the source into your filter in without any amplification and then route it to the output module from there.
helder
Well, I monitor it both out the master and the headphone out. I understand the output module is designed to amplify the signal out but the funny thing is that I am mixing the iPad directly into the output module with the other eurorack sources, and they all have the same level. I don't even have to have the iPad in full volume, although it does need to be up there for correct gain staging.

So, in other words, plugging eurorack levels and the iPad into the same eurorack mixer (the erica synths black output) renders similar levels to all inputs. I don't have to crank up the knob on the iPad channel in relation to the other (eurorack) inputs!

This for me is great, as I don't have to get a dedicated external module...

(Modules like the Endorphines Cockpit can accept both line and eurorack levels, and maybe the erica synth one can do the same, although it is not stated?...)
helder
Anyone else here has any ideas on this? Anypone who has a Black Output v2 module that want to try somethign similar?

Do all output/mixer modules do this?

I find it odd because I think it was not supposed to work...razz
Dave Peck
You're making an assumption that the headphone output is 'line level'. Do we know exactly what the signal level is? Headphone outputs can be MUCH hotter than 'line level', but it varies from product to product.
helder
I keep on experimenting. Depending on the eurorack signal sent to the mixer the drums from the iPad can be more or less drowned. In the first example attached (ZOOM0009) the drums hold very much the same level as the eurorack sources, but in the second (ZOOM0012) they struggle a little (iPad level and its channel on the mixer are cranked all the way up, while the eurorack sources are a little above half max). I think this is because in the second example the eurorack sources/oscillators are hotter.
R.U.Nuts
Of course you can run line level signals into a modular. It's not like it won't process line level. Problems start to occur once you try to mix line level with modular level signals. Then your line level signals will be much quieter than the modular level signals and you will have a hard time balancing everything. So you need a preamp to properly mix stuff...
helder
R.U.Nuts wrote:
Of course you can run line level signals into a modular. It's not like it won't process line level. Problems start to occur once you try to mix line level with modular level signals. Then your line level signals will be much quieter than the modular level signals and you will have a hard time balancing everything. So you need a preamp to properly mix stuff...


Yes, but what I am saying is that I am able to mix eurorack inputs and the iPad line level in the same eurorack mixer without a preamp (sound clips above). Thanks.
xenosapien
modular levels CAN be loud, but they don´t HAVE TO.

for example, I can mix my Braids' output with any other modular oscillator, and I´ll probably have to turn down the other OSC by a lot to get down to the same quiet level of Braids (in most modes it is relatively quiet).

so yes, it is perfectly possible that your iPads headphone out might be comparatively loud (as someone already said, headphone outputs tend to run hot levels sometimes) and if your eurorack sources are maybe on the quieter side (also possibly filtered and VCA'd to less than full amplitude?) it might just mix well.
R.U.Nuts
xenosapien wrote:
modular levels CAN be loud, but they don´t HAVE TO.

for example, I can mix my Braids' output with any other modular oscillator, and I´ll probably have to turn down the other OSC by a lot to get down to the same quiet level of Braids (in most modes it is relatively quiet).

so yes, it is perfectly possible that your iPads headphone out might be comparatively loud (as someone already said, headphone outputs tend to run hot levels sometimes) and if your eurorack sources are maybe on the quieter side (also possibly filtered and VCA'd to less than full amplitude?) it might just mix well.


Yeah that's true. Especially samplers and digital modules are sometimes quieter. But that's annoying IMHO and one reason why I use a mixing desk as my final mixer. This way I can adjust all signal levels with the channel preamps (attenuate hot stuff, boost quiet stuff). Otherwise it would be a pain to use a mixer as a compositional/performance tool because you always would have to be careful not to overdrive some channels while other channels only work when cranked. By proper level matching you can just slam faders up and down without worrying about anything.
helder
xenosapien wrote:
modular levels CAN be loud, but they don´t HAVE TO.

for example, I can mix my Braids' output with any other modular oscillator, and I´ll probably have to turn down the other OSC by a lot to get down to the same quiet level of Braids (in most modes it is relatively quiet).

so yes, it is perfectly possible that your iPads headphone out might be comparatively loud (as someone already said, headphone outputs tend to run hot levels sometimes) and if your eurorack sources are maybe on the quieter side (also possibly filtered and VCA'd to less than full amplitude?) it might just mix well.


Yes, this makes perfect sense to me and matches my experiences. On some mixes (using some eurorack sounds) the iPad sounds blends efffortlessly, while with others it struggles to keep up (as in examples above). Interesting. I might need to get an external boost module but for nos I was happy to find that still it was usable just straight into the eurorack mixer.
helder
R.U.Nuts wrote:
Yeah that's true. Especially samplers and digital modules are sometimes quieter. But that's annoying IMHO and one reason why I use a mixing desk as my final mixer. This way I can adjust all signal levels with the channel preamps (attenuate hot stuff, boost quiet stuff). Otherwise it would be a pain to use a mixer as a compositional/performance tool because you always would have to be careful not to overdrive some channels while other channels only work when cranked. By proper level matching you can just slam faders up and down without worrying about anything.


That’s useful to know! What outboard mixer do you use? One should get a mixer with gain boost knob on each channel then, yes? Thanks.
xenosapien
I´m actually doing the same, @R.U.Nuts - I use an old model of a Mackie VLZ 1202 mixer.

@helder exactly, you´d want a gain knob on most channels.

in my case, my mixer only has gain knobs for the mono channels, but I make that work by connecting my Octatrack, Machinedrum etc. to the stereo channels - all of which have their own output volume control and gain staging in the unit itself, so I can easily make those to be the "loudest" sources in the mix.
helder
xenosapien wrote:


@helder exactly, you´d want a gain knob on most channels.


Is this for the external, line level, signals and the quiter modules? I was thinking of getting the behringer Xenyx 1002FX (I need a small mixer), but it has only 2 channels with gain knobs. My eurorack sources are (and will be) a mother 32, rings (and clouds), 2hp pluck, 4ms SMR, Mangrove and a plaits. Externally I would like to add an iPad (softsynths and drums) and possibly others later if needed.

As far as I can tell, the mother 32, pluck and rings are fairly hot. I still don't have the mangrove and plaits. I was thinking of running the eurorack sources directly into the channels on the behringer mixer without the gain knobs, and any line level souces to these gain-boosting channels.

Do you reckon, based on this, that behringer mixer would work?
Thanks in advance.
xenosapien
I would stay away from the (cheap) Behringer units.

I have had only really bad experiences with them... granted, that was in 2015 and I HEAR that they have become better - but still, I would never recommend a piece of gear that I literally gladly threw into a dumpster.

Basically, you´ll want it so whatever you plug into the mixer, you have a little bit of room for both attenuation and amplification.
This can be done by leaving the Gain at "unity" (which is about 25% of the gain range on my Mackie, for example) so I can either attenuate down by a few dB or gain it up by up to ~12db.

So, if you only have 2 sources that are either way too loud or way too quiet, 2 gain-knob equipped channels might be enough.

But ideally, it would be the other way around, like in my case.
R.U.Nuts
xenosapien wrote:
I´m actually doing the same, @R.U.Nuts - I use an old model of a Mackie VLZ 1202 mixer.

@helder exactly, you´d want a gain knob on most channels.

in my case, my mixer only has gain knobs for the mono channels, but I make that work by connecting my Octatrack, Machinedrum etc. to the stereo channels - all of which have their own output volume control and gain staging in the unit itself, so I can easily make those to be the "loudest" sources in the mix.


Mackie user here, too Guinness ftw! - And I also had a Behringer mixer that I tested for about ten minutes and then boxed it again to return it Miley Cyrus.

@helder: I use a Mackie 1402VLZ 3. It has gain pots on all mono ins and +4/-10dB switches on the stereo channels. - And it has faders. I'd reccomend something with faders. Though bigger it's so much more fun to use. - And get something with some sends and other routing options. Even though you don't know what they're for yet, you maybe discover some cool tricks you can do with them.
helder
Thank you both for the helpful tips. I will discard the behringer option then and will look further into it. Thnaks again.
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion  
Page 1 of 1
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group