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Our answer to modular polyphony: Supercritical Synthesizers
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author Our answer to modular polyphony: Supercritical Synthesizers
hzzzu


Hi! My name is Heikki and I’m from a new manufacturer called Supercritical Synthesizers. We started this as a hobby project with two other people (including our engineering genius Timo, tisaalho on MW) almost two years ago and now we decided to release it to public. The first product is the Demon Core Oscillator and accompanying it is the Demon Core Expander module.

The product itself is an oscillator, a digitally controlled one. But it is way much more. It has 16 configurable voices and some snake charming skills to control all the waves’ phases. It also might solve the long ongoing question of polyphony and paraphony in the eurorack context. We did label it as an oscillator while it wears the hats of: 1) An oscillator 2) A full synthesizer voice 3) Paraphonic sound generator to be sculpted with other modules. I believe the weirdest uses for this machine are yet to come. It surprises me every time I turn it on.

The main module makes the sound and has some traditional oscillator controls with some and-then-some. It has coarse and fine tuning with a handy indicator for concert pitch. The waves we’re dealing with are saw and pulse with PWM. The patty of this burger is that the 16 voices can be stacked in unison and/or in octave stacks. Picture a six octave stack of two oscillators each, I have no idea what to do with it. That’d be your job.

The timbral cheese comes from the spread and core stability control. Spread is a static spread (detune) and will adjust from a clockwork Juno via a creamy supersaw to a jazz player having a very bad day. Core stability is our drift control. Having played a couple of Jupiter 8’s and Timo having a dreamy OB-Xa we are fans of the VCO drift. The drift can be set from accurate modern poly drift to a broken and wandering VCO. Slightly below the middle is our favorite lush and pillowy 80’s-big-poly-machine-territory. This is the feature we crafted with care. FM, PWM, spread and stability have CV’s with offsets so you don’t need attenuverters if you don’t want to.

The bun this burger’s wrapped in is the concept of polyphony. The expander introduces us to polyphony. Connected, we can now allocate the voices to stacks, octaves and polyphony. 8x2, 16x1, 3x5. Decide on a polyphony, max the stack and divide to octaves. It’s entirely your choice. 4x4 is cool. Having four Mono/Poly oscillator setups in 20hp. It’s our favorite. We had this minimal setup in mind where the DCO would serve as the sound source and you can route it through your favorite filter modulated by an envelope and make your own tiny poly machine. I’m actively playing it in my band with the incredible Mutable Instruments Ripples filter as a poor man’s Jupiter 8. The Doepfer SEM filter is also delicious with this.

MIDI. The expander provides us with a midi interface with TRS-jacks. Midi in and a mirrored thru are accompanied with a convenient gate out. The expander has a gate switch which switches between a constant stream of sound and a gated mode. The gate mode is a polyphonic gating mode with ADSR-envelope for each allocated voice. The gate out has also a cool retrig for maximum searing funk. The DCO can played like a proper polyphonic keyboard. You don’t need extra 16 VCAs. The polyphony can be also controlled from the four FM inputs (with a global attenuator which has 1V/oct when full). We also hid some easter eggs with alternative CV modes for these four inputs.

The time sync thing: We encountered this anomaly by an accident in early dev stages. It was quite unusual so we decided to have controls for it. Since we know the phases of the waves, we start from stacked unison oscillators having all waves in the same phase. Over time the phases spread when the spread control is slightly opened. This causes a enveloped flanging effect which can be used as a thick bass sound or some flanging pads. Or something entirely else, we don’t know. It can be triggered via the main module sync trig jack or the midi note. The expander provides us also a time control which adjusts the time of the waves when they sync phases from past to future. Time travel’s always cool.

There’s a huge amount of options in this, we know. Some of them exist behind some button combos, but we tried to streamline it a bit. There’s no menu diving. There’s a magic combo to reset the module to get Dorothy and Toto back to Kansas. To trim the hedge between you and the music you can play a couple minutes’ WAV file to the FM input from your mobile phone to update the firmware updates enhancing the UI and fixing bugs in the future.

Main module tech specs:

    12hp, skiff friendly with 25mm depth.
    120mA +12V and 20mA -12V
    16 configurable voices (octave, stacks)
    Saw and pulse waves with PWM ranging from 0-100%
    Coarse tune for 6 octave range with half-step increments
    Fine tune for ± half step range
    A blinking tuning indicator for finding C note in every octave and A440 fine tuning
    1V/oct master pitch CV
    Linear FM CV (±8V) with attenuator
    Combined Spread / PWM CV (±8V) with offset function
    Stability CV (±8V) with offset function
    Trigger input for synchronizing the phases for all waves
    Mono audio output
    A function (shift) button to do magic for different controls!
    Software updates via audio
    Secure shrouded power connector with a supplied power cable


Expander module specs:

    8hp, skiff friendly with 25mm depth.
    Powers from main module, connects via supplied ribbon cable
    Connected, the oscillator draws now 130mA +12V and 30mA -12V
    MIDI interface with bipolar TRS-connector
    MIDI thru, polarity set with jumpers on the back
    MIDI channel learn function with pitch bend setting
    Gate output, 5v 4ms trigger in retrig
    Configurable polyphony, ADSR envelope for each voice
    Four pitch CVs (±8V) with global attenuator
    Control for phase sync timing
    We’re still working on the website, price and distribution but we hope to release them in a week or so.


We’re designing this by ourselves and we do most of the manufacturing locally. We’re trying to do this the eco-friendly way.

If you’re reading this far, thanks. We’re very enthusiastic about this. Ping me or Timo in this thread if you want to know more. Timo will talk for days about the technology.

Oh by the way. All of the sound coming out of the module is analog and we’re making this in Finland. Aliasing fans, sorry.

The 16 voice Demon Core Oscillator and Expander are available in May-June 2019 and the prices are: 16 Voice Demon Core Oscillator: 490€, Demon Core Expander: 280€ incl. VAT. US prices will be similar and be announced soon.

The DCO and Expander will be distributed by Alex4.

www.supercriticalsynthesizers.com

A teaser video of the Demon Core Oscillator on YouTube:


Demon Core Oscillator sound samples on Soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/supercritical-synthesizers/sets/16-voice-demon- core-oscillator-sound-samples
[s]https://api.soundcloud.com/playlists/764762295[/s]
Summa
screaming goo yo screaming goo yo wow! just wow!

love the burger analogy and who wouldn't want to hear "a jazz player having a very bad day"

consider me more than interested in this and just ship one over the ocean once you're ready applause
Paranormal Patroler
Cool stuff!

What's the TRS mapping you're using?
hzzzu
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Cool stuff!

What's the TRS mapping you're using?


We're using both. You can feed both polarities in and it will configure itself automatically. The thru polarity can be set with jumpers on the back so you can set it depending where you are routing the MIDI thru. For instance you can use a Beatstep via the Expander to a 0-Coast without adapters. We thought it would be handy this way.
Paranormal Patroler
hzzzu wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Cool stuff!

What's the TRS mapping you're using?


We're using both. You can feed both polarities in and it will configure itself automatically. The thru polarity can be set with jumpers on the back so you can set it depending where you are routing the MIDI thru. For instance you can use a Beatstep via the Expander to a 0-Coast without adapters. We thought it would be handy this way.


Perfect, thanks!
Christopher Winkels
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".
southberry
WOOOOW MY ASS IS BLEEDING
Keltie
This looks really impressive. Look forward to demos, pricing and availability info in due course.

Well done!
hzzzu
Keltie wrote:
This looks really impressive. Look forward to demos, pricing and availability info in due course.

Well done!


Thanks! Did you check out the Soundcloud ones? Some video demos are in progress.
gwpt
Sounds great.
What will it and expander cost?
kay_k
hzzzu wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Cool stuff!

What's the TRS mapping you're using?


We're using both. You can feed both polarities in and it will configure itself automatically. The thru polarity can be set with jumpers on the back so you can set it depending where you are routing the MIDI thru. For instance you can use a Beatstep via the Expander to a 0-Coast without adapters. We thought it would be handy this way.


The answer is so easy and yet not made it to a standard.
SlayerBadger!
Paranormal Patroler
kay_k wrote:
hzzzu wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Cool stuff!

What's the TRS mapping you're using?


We're using both. You can feed both polarities in and it will configure itself automatically. The thru polarity can be set with jumpers on the back so you can set it depending where you are routing the MIDI thru. For instance you can use a Beatstep via the Expander to a 0-Coast without adapters. We thought it would be handy this way.


The answer is so easy and yet not made it to a standard.
SlayerBadger!


I told you Korg would be the standard. I still laugh whenever I realize there are only two ways to go about this, and both are now a thing hihi

Winkels, crossroads? How so?
kay_k
bit of googling:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core

Btw, are you at SB19, Konstantine?
hzzzu
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".


Glad you were Able to connect the dots!
mdoudoroff
Watching this one carefully, mainly because I’m in the market for a compact oscillator to offload Sinfonion chords to—all the cool extras are BONUS!

I’m not sure yet whether this is a good fit for my primary purpose, but it sure looks intriguing. Seems like I might have to CV-to-MIDI to use the envelopes, which sounds a bit daunting.
Paranormal Patroler
kay_k wrote:
Btw, are you at SB19, Konstantine?


Always! Mr. Green
franman69
Wow... very interested...
JohnLRice
hzzzu wrote:
A teaser video of the Demon Core Oscillator on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/VtylQKIf5Bk

Demon Core Oscillator sound samples on Soundcloud:
[s]https://soundcloud.com/supercritical-synthesizers/sets/16-voice-dem on-core-oscillator-sound-samples[/s]
WOWZA! Looks and sounds great!!!

FYI: If you wrap your YouTube URL with [video][/video] tags and remove the letter "s" from the "https" the video will embed here:


SoundCloud is a little trickier but doable. If the named URL has too many spaces in the title or is too long it wont work here. The way around it is to grab the embed code and then just copy and paste the ID number URL out of it, fix the ":" and then wrap with [s][/s] tags:
[s]https://api.soundcloud.com/playlists/764762295[/s]
cackland
Very impressed. Nice entrance, I’ll be keeping a close eye on this one also
kay_k
added this to the TRS midi list ..
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2620781#2620781
The Junglechrist
Wow ! Impressive and very good looking !
mnchrme
Oh. I am intrigued. Price? Looks so good. love love love love
donttouchmyrice
If i'm understanding the voice allocating possibilities correctly:

-Over the midi In/thru jack, each of the 16 voices can be played independantly via midi.
-And with the expander attached, you have 5 V/oct inputs adressable over CV. so you could make any possible division of the 16 voices, over those 5 V/oct inputs? Or are those all the ones you've mentioned already (8x2, 5x3, 4x4, 16x1)?
-What happens when you control the voices over Midi and over V/oct inputs at the same time? is this possible?

Looks like a very cool module so far, great work! thumbs up
lisa
Nice demos, sounds lovely. Cool concept too. SlayerBadger!
pinkflag16
I was just thinking of paring down my modular a bit to fund either a Polysix or Mono/Poly. Then the Matriarch was announced. Now this. Good year so far.
pinkflag16
So just so I'm understanding how this works... I can hang a trs to MIDI dongle and plug in my cheap MIDI keyboard and start playing, right? What about using a Euro sequencer with CV/Gate? If I have the expander attached and am running into the CV/Gate ins on the main module, will the env/vca from the expander still be active?
TheRosskonian
donttouchmyrice wrote:
What happens when you control the voices over Midi and over V/oct inputs at the same time? is this possible?


Also curious about this along with the other ways the voices are split. Even split up between different configurations, there is still only one output? Or possibly could this be expanded?
chaosick
hzzzu wrote:


Hi! My name is Heikki and I’m from a new manufacturer called Supercritical Synthesizers. We started this as a hobby project with two other people (including our engineering genius Timo, tisaalho on MW) almost two years ago and now we decided to release it to public. The first product is the Demon Core Oscillator and accompanying it is the Demon Core Expander module.

The product itself is an oscillator, a digitally controlled one. But it is way much more. It has 16 configurable voices and some snake charming skills to control all the waves’ phases. It also might solve the long ongoing question of polyphony and paraphony in the eurorack context. We did label it as an oscillator while it wears the hats of: 1) An oscillator 2) A full synthesizer voice 3) Paraphonic sound generator to be sculpted with other modules. I believe the weirdest uses for this machine are yet to come. It surprises me every time I turn it on.

The main module makes the sound and has some traditional oscillator controls with some and-then-some. It has coarse and fine tuning with a handy indicator for concert pitch. The waves we’re dealing with are saw and pulse with PWM. The patty of this burger is that the 16 voices can be stacked in unison and/or in octave stacks. Picture a six octave stack of two oscillators each, I have no idea what to do with it. That’d be your job.

The timbral cheese comes from the spread and core stability control. Spread is a static spread (detune) and will adjust from a clockwork Juno via a creamy supersaw to a jazz player having a very bad day. Core stability is our drift control. Having played a couple of Jupiter 8’s and Timo having a dreamy OB-Xa we are fans of the VCO drift. The drift can be set from accurate modern poly drift to a broken and wandering VCO. Slightly below the middle is our favorite lush and pillowy 80’s-big-poly-machine-territory. This is the feature we crafted with care. FM, PWM, spread and stability have CV’s with offsets so you don’t need attenuverters if you don’t want to.

The bun this burger’s wrapped in is the concept of polyphony. The expander introduces us to polyphony. Connected, we can now allocate the voices to stacks, octaves and polyphony. 8x2, 16x1, 3x5. Decide on a polyphony, max the stack and divide to octaves. It’s entirely your choice. 4x4 is cool. Having four Mono/Poly oscillator setups in 20hp. It’s our favorite. We had this minimal setup in mind where the DCO would serve as the sound source and you can route it through your favorite filter modulated by an envelope and make your own tiny poly machine. I’m actively playing it in my band with the incredible Mutable Instruments Ripples filter as a poor man’s Jupiter 8. The Doepfer SEM filter is also delicious with this.

MIDI. The expander provides us with a midi interface with TRS-jacks. Midi in and a mirrored thru are accompanied with a convenient gate out. The expander has a gate switch which switches between a constant stream of sound and a gated mode. The gate mode is a polyphonic gating mode with ADSR-envelope for each allocated voice. The gate out has also a cool retrig for maximum searing funk. The DCO can played like a proper polyphonic keyboard. You don’t need extra 16 VCAs. The polyphony can be also controlled from the four FM inputs (with a global attenuator which has 1V/oct when full). We also hid some easter eggs with alternative CV modes for these four inputs.

The time sync thing: We encountered this anomaly by an accident in early dev stages. It was quite unusual so we decided to have controls for it. Since we know the phases of the waves, we start from stacked unison oscillators having all waves in the same phase. Over time the phases spread when the spread control is slightly opened. This causes a enveloped flanging effect which can be used as a thick bass sound or some flanging pads. Or something entirely else, we don’t know. It can be triggered via the main module sync trig jack or the midi note. The expander provides us also a time control which adjusts the time of the waves when they sync phases from past to future. Time travel’s always cool.

There’s a huge amount of options in this, we know. Some of them exist behind some button combos, but we tried to streamline it a bit. There’s no menu diving. There’s a magic combo to reset the module to get Dorothy and Toto back to Kansas. To trim the hedge between you and the music you can play a couple minutes’ WAV file to the FM input from your mobile phone to update the firmware updates enhancing the UI and fixing bugs in the future.

Main module tech specs:

    12hp, skiff friendly with 25mm depth.
    120mA +12V and 20mA -12V
    16 configurable voices (octave, stacks)
    Saw and pulse waves with PWM ranging from 0-100%
    Coarse tune for 6 octave range with half-step increments
    Fine tune for ± half step range
    A blinking tuning indicator for finding C note in every octave and A440 fine tuning
    1V/oct master pitch CV
    Linear FM CV (±8V) with attenuator
    Combined Spread / PWM CV (±8V) with offset function
    Stability CV (±8V) with offset function
    Trigger input for synchronizing the phases for all waves
    Mono audio output
    A function (shift) button to do magic for different controls!
    Software updates via audio
    Secure shrouded power connector with a supplied power cable


Expander module specs:

    8hp, skiff friendly with 25mm depth.
    Powers from main module, connects via supplied ribbon cable
    Connected, the oscillator draws now 130mA +12V and 30mA -12V
    MIDI interface with bipolar TRS-connector
    MIDI thru, polarity set with jumpers on the back
    MIDI channel learn function with pitch bend setting
    Gate output, 5v 4ms trigger in retrig
    Configurable polyphony, ADSR envelope for each voice
    Four pitch CVs (±8V) with global attenuator
    Control for phase sync timing
    We’re still working on the website, price and distribution but we hope to release them in a week or so.


We’re designing this by ourselves and we do most of the manufacturing locally. We’re trying to do this the eco-friendly way.

If you’re reading this far, thanks. We’re very enthusiastic about this. Ping me or Timo in this thread if you want to know more. Timo will talk for days about the technology.

Oh by the way. All of the sound coming out of the module is analog and we’re making this in Finland. Aliasing fans, sorry.

The 16 voice Demon Core Oscillator and Expander are available in May-June 2019 and pricing TBA soon.

www.supercriticalsynthesizers.com

A teaser video of the Demon Core Oscillator on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/VtylQKIf5Bk

Demon Core Oscillator sound samples on Soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/supercritical-synthesizers/sets/16-voice-demon- core-oscillator-sound-samples
[s]https://soundcloud.com/supercritical-synthesizers/sets/16-voice-dem on-core-oscillator-sound-samples[/s]


Wow, this is crazy. It seems like having the oscillator core of a Futuresonus Parva or something in a module.
chaosick
pinkflag16 wrote:
So just so I'm understanding how this works... I can hang a trs to MIDI dongle and plug in my cheap MIDI keyboard and start playing, right? What about using a Euro sequencer with CV/Gate? If I have the expander attached and am running into the CV/Gate ins on the main module, will the env/vca from the expander still be active?


Yes, also trying interested in this and trying to visualize.
JES
So: I play a Linnstrument. How would/could this work with MPE? Could I use channel pressure to module phase or tuning of the individual voices? Would they rotate as a I hit new triads?
PeterDeVault
Wow. I just peeked in from MU land and saw this. How awesome. One more reason to start a little Euroskiff...
Ringo
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".


Very tempting oscillator...technically.

It's really a pity that it has a pentagram on its faceplate and a "demon core" because that way it s a no-go for me personally. And I'm generally very interested in polyphonic stuff. Recently, quite a few modules seem to be predetermind to be dark or even evil. i, personally, do not think that it is funny or stylish or meant that way in some cases. I understand that there are people who make nice dark music, but references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.
Cortega
Ringo wrote:
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".


Very tempting oscillator...technically.

It's really a pity that it has a pentagram on its faceplate and a "demon core" because that way it s a no-go for me personally. And I'm generally very interested in polyphonic stuff. Recently, quite a few modules seem to be predetermind to be dark or even evil. i, personally, do not think that it is funny or stylish or meant that way in some cases. I understand that there are people who make nice dark music, but references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.


lol, that are only a symbol and a name, just put a sticker with the name Holy Cow over Demon Core and a Sticker with a picture of a any Hippie over the Pentagram and then Wiggler Heaven will appear.

and google Demon Core, should help you beware of Demons too.
Rex Coil 7
Ringo wrote:
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".


Very tempting oscillator...technically.

It's really a pity that it has a pentagram on its faceplate and a "demon core" because that way it s a no-go for me personally. And I'm generally very interested in polyphonic stuff. Recently, quite a few modules seem to be predetermind to be dark or even evil. i, personally, do not think that it is funny or stylish or meant that way in some cases. I understand that there are people who make nice dark music, but references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.
I completely respect your position, full-on. And it is totally ok to feel the way you do about this issue.

thumbs up
Carl Licroy
Fantastic! More chords demo please, it sounds really good so far. Is it based on curtis 3340 chips or another design?
gwpt
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Ringo wrote:
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".


Very tempting oscillator...technically.

It's really a pity that it has a pentagram on its faceplate and a "demon core" because that way it s a no-go for me personally. And I'm generally very interested in polyphonic stuff. Recently, quite a few modules seem to be predetermind to be dark or even evil. i, personally, do not think that it is funny or stylish or meant that way in some cases. I understand that there are people who make nice dark music, but references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.
I completely respect your position, full-on. And it is totally ok to feel the way you do about this issue.

thumbs up


Just to be pedantic...

It doesn't have a pentagram on it. It has leds organised as an octagram (which is not a 'evil' symbol)
and 'demon core' refers to a piece of plutonium in an experiment gone wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core

So, there aren't really any demonic references at all. If that makes you more comfortable with it smile
jjh
Both brand and product name refer to nuclear energy, which itself may be questionable topic to some. But this is not a matter of religion even though literally speaking "demon" is mentioned.
Orange
@supercritical congrats! thumbs up

Ringo wrote:


Very tempting oscillator...technically.

It's really a pity that it has a pentagram on its faceplate and a "demon core" because that way it s a no-go for me personally. And I'm generally very interested in polyphonic stuff. Recently, quite a few modules seem to be predetermind to be dark or even evil. i, personally, do not think that it is funny or stylish or meant that way in some cases. I understand that there are people who make nice dark music, but references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.


Personally, I think you don’t know what you are talking about....
But good to know your red line SlayerBadger!
target_destroyed
Ringo wrote:
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".


Very tempting oscillator...technically.

It's really a pity that it has a pentagram on its faceplate and a "demon core" because that way it s a no-go for me personally. And I'm generally very interested in polyphonic stuff. Recently, quite a few modules seem to be predetermind to be dark or even evil. i, personally, do not think that it is funny or stylish or meant that way in some cases. I understand that there are people who make nice dark music, but references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.


Dude... what? "Penta" by definition means "five." If anything that led arrangement has eight "points." You're getting worked up over something that isn't there... Also the pentagram is not an inherently "evil" symbol (and was even used by the christians at one point), and as mentioned above the "demon core" was a chunk of plutonium involved in an accident in 1945. Google, man. d'oh!
JES
In Ringo's defence, I've got a PhD and write about the history of technology and didn't get the reference either. But I just looked it up, so thanks everyone.

And I get annoyed at sexist-sounding names, so Ringo's entitled to his position, whatever the actual intended reference is (i guess you know where I fall on the "is MW sexist?" debate).

Now, I've got more questions about the oscillator:

If it's not the only MIDI controlled thing in your rack, how would you set it up? Will there be MIDI through or something, or can you set it up with an Expert Sleepers FH-2 somehow?

TIA!
Ceres
Every time a eurorack module is purchased, an angel loses its wings. Praise be our dark lord.
Ringo
gwpt wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Ringo wrote:
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".


Very tempting oscillator...technically.

It's really a pity that it has a pentagram on its faceplate and a "demon core" because that way it s a no-go for me personally. And I'm generally very interested in polyphonic stuff. Recently, quite a few modules seem to be predetermind to be dark or even evil. i, personally, do not think that it is funny or stylish or meant that way in some cases. I understand that there are people who make nice dark music, but references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.
I completely respect your position, full-on. And it is totally ok to feel the way you do about this issue.

thumbs up


Just to be pedantic...

It doesn't have a pentagram on it. It has leds organised as an octagram (which is not a 'evil' symbol)
and 'demon core' refers to a piece of plutonium in an experiment gone wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_core

So, there aren't really any demonic references at all. If that makes you more comfortable with it smile


Thanks, you are right of course. It is an octagram on the faceplate, not a pentagram. Totally my fault. And demon core - I looked it up: It is also known as a failed experiment with a nuclear bomb which caused the death of two scientists. So the symbolism and the name are really not as bad as I thought.
The oscillator itself seems to be impressive. Maybe I can overlook the demonic name under these circumstances. However, I still see it as a disadvantage, personally.
pinkflag16
Ringo wrote:


...which caused the death of two scientists. So the symbolism and the name are really not as bad as I thought.

Christopher Winkels
Ringo wrote:
a nuclear bomb which caused the death of two scientists. So the symbolism and the name are really not as bad as I thought.


d'oh!
mskala
hzzzu wrote:
Oh by the way. All of the sound coming out of the module is analog


This seems a strange thing to say about a module that generates the sound digitally. Even if it's literally true that the output is an analog signal because you put it through a DAC, that's not what most people mean when they talk about analog synthesis.
Virusinstaller
This is really cool. It kinda sounds like Hyve synthesiser, in a good way of course & of course different.
Drenched in a little reverb. Luscious!
Timmy
mskala wrote:
hzzzu wrote:
Oh by the way. All of the sound coming out of the module is analog


This seems a strange thing to say about a module that generates the sound digitally. Even if it's literally true that the output is an analog signal because you put it through a DAC, that's not what most people mean when they talk about analog synthesis.


It is described as a DCO, thus the waveforms are in fact created using a ramp or triangle core analogue circuit, not via a DAC - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitally_controlled_oscillator
mskala
Timmy wrote:
It is described as a DCO, thus the waveforms are in fact created using a ramp or triangle core analogue circuit, not via a DAC - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitally_controlled_oscillator


Does DCO mean exactly that in this context, or is it being used as an abbreviation for "Demon Core Oscillator"?
cioaudio
mskala wrote:
Timmy wrote:
It is described as a DCO, thus the waveforms are in fact created using a ramp or triangle core analogue circuit, not via a DAC - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitally_controlled_oscillator


Does DCO mean exactly that in this context, or is it being used as an abbreviation for "Demon Core Oscillator"?


The product acronym is unfortunate, but the first post does describe it as a digitally controlled ocillator (singular). I'm hoping it comprises 16 digitally controlled oscillators.
The first post does apologize to aliasing fans which strongly suggests a sampled data system is not providing the oscillators.
mskala
cioaudio wrote:
he product acronym is unfortunate, but the first post does describe it as a digitally controlled ocillator (singular). I'm hoping it comprises 16 digitally controlled oscillators.


I was really hoping for an answer from the manufacturers. The original posting is vague and makes some contradictory claims, like the "apologies to aliasing fans" thing, which if literally and absolutely true is not compatible with the temporal aliasing of traditional DCOs - so I took that as marketing hype rather than a literal technical description. Maybe they just mean the controller's clock speed is fast enough that it's not a problem. The way it's worded almost makes it sound like they are saying there's no aliasing specifically because the module is made in Finland, which is ridiculous - so what I get from it is that the wording is not careful and should not be taken too seriously. Your guess is as good as mine or Timmy's when we attempt to read between the lines of the advertisement, but without the specific technical answers that their engineer is supposed to be eager to give, we're just shooting in the dark.

The thing is, 16 analog integrators, 16 precise current drivers for them, and 16 reset circuits, plus the entire digital side, is a lot to pack into a 12HP 25mm-deep Eurorack module. As a rough guess I think they need something like three op amps per oscillator minimum, and that makes 48; 12 standard quad op amp packages. It's surely possible with a high-density multi-layer PCB, but I'd really like to see a good photo of that PCB. Even just stuff like doing the power distribution well, to prevent crosstalk among the oscillators and noise coming over from the digital side, is impressive when we're talking about that level of density on a board. If I'm understanding the ad copy for the expander right, it's adding a further 16 VCAs (so, what's that, four 2164 packages or similar, plus the driver and support circuitry for those, as well as all the other things the expander does?) in 8HP and that's impressive density, too.
cioaudio
mskala wrote:
cioaudio wrote:
he product acronym is unfortunate, but the first post does describe it as a digitally controlled ocillator (singular). I'm hoping it comprises 16 digitally controlled oscillators.


I was really hoping for an answer from the manufacturers. The original posting is vague and makes some contradictory claims, like the "apologies to aliasing fans" thing, which if literally and absolutely true is not compatible with the temporal aliasing of traditional DCOs - so I took that as marketing hype rather than a literal technical description. Maybe they just mean the controller's clock speed is fast enough that it's not a problem. The way it's worded almost makes it sound like they are saying there's no aliasing specifically because the module is made in Finland, which is ridiculous - so what I get from it is that the wording is not careful and should not be taken too seriously. Your guess is as good as mine or Timmy's when we attempt to read between the lines of the advertisement, but without the specific technical answers that their engineer is supposed to be eager to give, we're just shooting in the dark.

The thing is, 16 analog integrators, 16 precise current drivers for them, and 16 reset circuits, plus the entire digital side, is a lot to pack into a 12HP 25mm-deep Eurorack module. As a rough guess I think they need something like three op amps per oscillator minimum, and that makes 48; 12 standard quad op amp packages. It's surely possible with a high-density multi-layer PCB, but I'd really like to see a good photo of that PCB. Even just stuff like doing the power distribution well, to prevent crosstalk among the oscillators and noise coming over from the digital side, is impressive when we're talking about that level of density on a board. If I'm understanding the ad copy for the expander right, it's adding a further 16 VCAs (so, what's that, four 2164 packages or similar, plus the driver and support circuitry for those, as well as all the other things the expander does?) in 8HP and that's impressive density, too.


16 DCOs only requires 16 integrators, 16 digital lines to reset them, a 16 channel DAC to provide the signal to be integrated and maybe a few other minor bits (an ARM MCU). These oscillators do NOT alias, they merely have discretisation of possible frequencies and with high resolution timers this temporal discretisation is not likely to be a problem. I know for a fact you can pack 12 such oscillators in a very small module so 16 is feasible. A DCO swaps the frequency error of a VCO for amplitude error and this effectively means you may end up with separate control of amplitude and frequency in order to be able to compensate the amplitude error. I'm not aware of any reason why you couldn't use this amplitude control as a VCA and it doesn't need any more parts because it just varies the value to be integrated.

But I agree that the initial post is a bit too vague and we're all just guessing so I too look forward to more details in the coming weeks. Really just wanted to point out that 16 real digitally controlled oscillators isn't perhaps as hard as you might think
zeroseven
Oh wow.

Will definitely be keeping an eye on this
Sandrine
These sound & look really great! Can't wait to see more as I love MIDI control and DCO's yummy!
The dual polarity for MIDI TRS is totally required, I did that on my Reflex LiveLoop Flash-8 expansion but then I ran into one that uses the sleeve and tip (I think the BSP is that) so now there needs to be 3 jumpers ugg
Most are tip-ring though thankfully.
ckwjr
loved the demo video. The module and expansion look fantastic.
hzzzu
Hey hey! Back to work after a busy launch weekend, thank you all for your replies. Timo will get back on the technical side of things shortly.

Meanwhile the prices in the EU are now public. 16 Voice Demon Core Oscillator: 490€, Demon Core Expander: 280€ incl. VAT. US prices will be similar and be announced soon.

The DCO and Expander will be distributed by Alex4.
tisaalho
Hi everybody, and great to hear your feedback on our first pair of modules! w00t

I'm Timo, and I do the engineering, coding etc in Supercritical Synthesizers. The whole thing got started as my DIY synth electronics hobby started to get a bit out of hand, and here we are now Mr. Green

A lot of good questions! Let me take those one at a time, in separate posts to avoid one ultralong post to rule them all.

Timmy wrote:

It is described as a DCO, thus the waveforms are in fact created using a ramp or triangle core analogue circuit, not via a DAC - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digitally_controlled_oscillator


This is pretty close! And indeed, the ambiguity with the product name acronym as Digitally Controlled Oscillator is intentional Mr. Green

Basically, it's an analog ramp generator with a digital reset driven from an MCU, just like a Juno DCO, except that our frequency resolution is between ten to one hundred times better than the Juno's (depending on which range setting on the Juno you're comparing to). However, we played a little trick with the reset circuit allowing us to combine much of the analog electronics from multiple oscillators into one, and that's why we can fit it into 12HP. There is a cost though: that means that there are no individual outputs. That would be a different module with different tradeoffs.

The core is then not quite a saw core or a triangle core, but something a bit more powerful... a Demon Core (so there, now there's at least a few options to choose from when interpreting the name)! You can also check out how the movie cameras in Pratchett's Moving Pictures work hihi

So, from a sound quality / psychoacoustics perspective, the end result is:

  1. no aliasing, since we round the period in clock ticks to an integer
  2. because of the above, frequency resolution is quantized, however, the master clock is 72MHz, so the the pitch resolution is 0.05 cents at 2KHz, which is good enough to do things like very subtle pitch jitter etc if desired (and you hear that in the demos, at least in my own use the Core Stability control is usually a bit below halfway by default, and more if I want to sound like a dodgy vintage VCO poly)
  3. No digital quantization, i.e. the ramp is true analog


So basically, with the Core Stability at zero, it sounds like DCO synths such as the Junos, but due to the better pitch resolution we can model the drift and jitter of a VCO, do subtle detuning etc etc.
tisaalho
Next topic, the amplitude envelopes:

cioaudio wrote:

... A DCO swaps the frequency error of a VCO for amplitude error and this effectively means you may end up with separate control of amplitude and frequency in order to be able to compensate the amplitude error. I'm not aware of any reason why you couldn't use this amplitude control as a VCA and it doesn't need any more parts because it just varies the value to be integrated...


This is more or less correct, there's no VCAs but rather the amplitude can be controlled per voice when generating the waveform, and that's where the envelopes are applied.
hzzzu
tisaalho wrote:

The core is then not quite a saw core or a triangle core, but something a bit more powerful... a Demon Core (so there, now there's at least a few options to choose from when interpreting the name)! You can also check out how the movie cameras in Pratchett's Moving Pictures work hihi


Wrong Moving Pictures. This is the correct and only Moving Pictures.
kay_k
JES wrote:
..
If it's not the only MIDI controlled thing in your rack, how would you set it up? Will there be MIDI through or something, or can you set it up with an Expert Sleepers FH-2 somehow?

TIA!



sorry for the off topic advertisement of my shit but there is an answer to this:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/lpzw-modules-wk3-midi-thru
tisaalho
JES wrote:


If it's not the only MIDI controlled thing in your rack, how would you set it up? Will there be MIDI through or something, or can you set it up with an Expert Sleepers FH-2 somehow?



The Expander has a MIDI thru on TRS, with polarity selectable via a pair of jumpers. That's exactly because we anticipated that you'll often want to feed the same MIDI to control other things too, and it would be annoying to split the MIDI externally.

donttouchmyrice wrote:
If i'm understanding the voice allocating possibilities correctly:

-Over the midi In/thru jack, each of the 16 voices can be played independantly via midi.
-And with the expander attached, you have 5 V/oct inputs adressable over CV. so you could make any possible division of the 16 voices, over those 5 V/oct inputs? Or are those all the ones you've mentioned already (8x2, 5x3, 4x4, 16x1)?
-What happens when you control the voices over Midi and over V/oct inputs at the same time? is this possible?


Correct on the first point. The second and third are related, so let me clarify how that works:


  1. The main module V/Oct input always shifts everything up or down (it's bipolar, +-5V range), whether or not the expander is connected
  2. When the expander is not connected, or the expander is set to Stream -mode, the full number of voices as set by the current polyphony plays all the time.
  3. When MIDI notes are played, they're allocated in round-robin schedule to the voices, as determined by the polyphony setting. If the expander is set to Gated -mode, MIDI notes gate the envelopes for each voice
  4. The expander CV inputs always shift the pitch of voices 1 - 4
  5. You can divide the 16 voices almost as you like, i.e. you can do for example (poly x stack) 7x2, or 3x4, or whatever. As a UI simplification though some combinations like 1x14 are skipped simply because there not much difference in the sound for 1x13 and 1x14 for example, and it gets tedious to click through all the combinations.
  6. The possible stack depths are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 12, 16, paired with any polyphony from the list below such that poly x depth doesn't exceed 16.
  7. The possible polyphonies are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 16, and again paired with any stack depth from the above list such that the total does not exceed 16. There's a bit more choices for the polyphony, since sometimes you might want to have a very specific number of voices playing in the Stream -mode to play chords of specific sizes


So just a few use cases for this (Heikki might have a few more ideas, and I'm sure there will be tons more once people start using the modules!):

The main module alone: the 1V/Oct input works as usual in an oscillator

The main module + expander, using only MIDI, with envelopes: if none of the V/Oct CV's are connected, this works like an ordinary MIDI polysynth, with MIDI triggering the voices and their envelopes. This would also be your basis for a string synth -like paraphonic setup, where you throw in an external filter to process the sound further. You'll probably want to use the Gate / Trig Out on the expander to gate an external envelope for the filter.

The main module + expander, using only the expander CV's: Here you'd set the polyphony to 4, switch the expander to Stream -mode and plug in the four CV's on the expander. You then have four voices playing all the time, which you can articulate with an external VCA, filter etc. Again, the Gate / Trig Out will probably come in handy.

Chord memory: Set the expander to Stream -mode, play a single chord over MIDI, and you get chord memory with MIDI determining the chord and the main module CV shifting that chord up and down.
tisaalho
hzzzu wrote:
tisaalho wrote:

You can also check out how the movie cameras in Pratchett's Moving Pictures work hihi


Wrong Moving Pictures. This is the correct and only Moving Pictures.


Hmm, how about reading Moving Pictures while listening to Moving Pictures, would that be ok? hmmm.....
tisaalho
Anyway, let's continue with the CV question:

So what happens if you have, say, polyphony of 5, and you play a Cmaj9 chord over MIDI. If none of the CV's are attached, then that is exactly what you get. Now, say you attach all four expander CV's, with say +1V, -1V, +2V and +3V (I'm picking easy numbers here, of course you'd usually use something other than full octaves). Then the first voice gets shifted up by an octave, next down by an octave, the third up by two octaves, the fourth up by three octaves, whereas the fifth one stays put (since there's no CV input for it). Which of the voices of the chord are the first, second etc? That would depend on the order you played the notes in, and the state of the voice allocator before playing the notes (which you can reset from the front panel by toggling the stream/gated -mode).

Then, if you further insert a CV, let's say -1V to keep things easy, to the main module V/oct input, what happens? That shifts everything down by one octave, i.e. you get the first voice is now at the same pitch it was before, the next is down by two octaves, the third up by one octave, the fourth up by two octaves, and the fifth one down by one octave. These are relative to what the MIDI notes would do without any CV's.

So, I hope these answers clear things up a little, and don't hesitate to ask more, we'll be happy to answer!
mskala
tisaalho wrote:
However, we played a little trick with the reset circuit allowing us to combine much of the analog electronics from multiple oscillators into one, and that's why we can fit it into 12HP. There is a cost though: that means that there are no individual outputs. That would be a different module with different tradeoffs.

The core is then not quite a saw core or a triangle core, but something a bit more powerful... a Demon Core (so there, now there's at least a few options to choose from when interpreting the name)! You can also check out how the movie cameras in Pratchett's Moving Pictures work :hihi:


If how it works is a secret you don't want to reveal, that is your prerogative. But the above is ad copy, not a technical description.
cioaudio
tisaalho wrote:



The main module + expander, using only the expander CV's: Here you'd set the polyphony to 4, switch the expander to Stream -mode and plug in the four CV's on the expander. You then have four voices playing all the time, which you can articulate with an external VCA, filter etc. Again, the Gate / Trig Out will probably come in handy.


This appears to be exactly what folk with ACL Sinfonions ordered will require for the chord section. Excellent.

Great to have you here.
flo
tisaalho wrote:
JES wrote:


If it's not the only MIDI controlled thing in your rack, how would you set it up? Will there be MIDI through or something, or can you set it up with an Expert Sleepers FH-2 somehow?


The Expander has a MIDI thru on TRS, with polarity selectable via a pair of jumpers. That's exactly because we anticipated that you'll often want to feed the same MIDI to control other things too, and it would be annoying to split the MIDI externally.


I'd like to see MIDI any connection on the rear with a 3p KK header (on any module with MIDI, actually). Then everyone can wire that to whatever connector they like in whatever polarity is needed (which certainly wouldn't be a 3.5mm TRS jack in my case), on the front or the rear of the modular... thumbs up No one does that though except Graham Hinton seriously, i just don't get it How does your module connect to the expander?

Cheers Guinness ftw!
Dstepatl
This looks interesting, I am looking forward to hearing more about it in the future.
Carl Licroy
cioaudio wrote:
tisaalho wrote:



The main module + expander, using only the expander CV's: Here you'd set the polyphony to 4, switch the expander to Stream -mode and plug in the four CV's on the expander. You then have four voices playing all the time, which you can articulate with an external VCA, filter etc. Again, the Gate / Trig Out will probably come in handy.


This appears to be exactly what folk with ACL Sinfonions ordered will require for the chord section. Excellent.

Great to have you here.


Same with Instruo Harmonaig thumbs up
mdoudoroff
Carl Licroy wrote:
cioaudio wrote:

This appears to be exactly what folk with ACL Sinfonions ordered will require for the chord section. Excellent.


Same with Instruo Harmonaig thumbs up


Main caveat is that it’s all mixed down to one output. I started a list of such high density oscillators here.
chrisj
tisaalho wrote:

So, from a sound quality / psychoacoustics perspective, the end result is:

  1. no aliasing, since we round the period in clock ticks to an integer
  2. because of the above, frequency resolution is quantized, however, the master clock is 72MHz, so the the pitch resolution is 0.05 cents at 2KHz, which is good enough to do things like very subtle pitch jitter etc if desired (and you hear that in the demos, at least in my own use the Core Stability control is usually a bit below halfway by default, and more if I want to sound like a dodgy vintage VCO poly)
  3. No digital quantization, i.e. the ramp is true analog


So basically, with the Core Stability at zero, it sounds like DCO synths such as the Junos, but due to the better pitch resolution we can model the drift and jitter of a VCO, do subtle detuning etc etc.


Works for me. I'm quite fond of the analog rawness of my old Farfisa Commander (currently parked as I was overusing it) and that uses a top octave divider to produce oscillators, just in a fixed way rather than a configurable way.

I'd be interested to hear demos using bright raw-output chords in a high register: far from using this to find fault, if the pitch quantization gets sketchier but stays not-aliased you'll probably get a distinctive and desirable sound out of the lil' bugger. Already sounds nice to me smile
JES
tisaalho wrote:


So what happens if you have, say, polyphony of 5, and you play a Cmaj9 chord over MIDI.


Thanks for patiently answering so many questions. Let me re-ask one you may have missed. Any planned suppor for MPE? Or, how would the module handle MPE?
tisaalho
JES wrote:

Thanks for patiently answering so many questions. Let me re-ask one you may have missed. Any planned suppor for MPE? Or, how would the module handle MPE?


Of course, sorry, I meant to answer but that one slipped my mind!

So the initial version of firmware will not have MPE support. At the moment, we don't have explicit plans to support that in a firmware update either, but on the other hand we don't want to exclude that.

What would you like to control with MPE? Per note pitch and volume are obvious targets, on the other hand Spread and Core Stability might give some interesting opportunities for expression cool

Hmm... maybe implementing MPE would be the perfect excuse for me to get myself a Linnstrument/Seaboard etc hmmm.....
kay_k
flo wrote:


I'd like to see MIDI any connection on the rear with a 3p KK header (on any module with MIDI, actually). Then everyone can wire that to whatever connector they like in whatever polarity is needed (which certainly wouldn't be a 3.5mm TRS jack in my case), on the front or the rear of the modular... thumbs up No one does that though except Graham Hinton seriously, i just don't get it How does your module connect to the expander?

Cheers Guinness ftw!


I'm putting MIDI inputs and outs/thru on the back of my modules (5V serial signal, not current loops) and I am planning an internal buffered clock & midi thru board too.
Also: Pamela's New Workout has a internal out and Mutable Instruments Grids has a MIDI input for clock (I can also say Grids works with my modules Out ports)

In the moment there is no standard for something like this, so single pins with jumper cables is the most probable future for such a thing. I personalty don't like that people are putting such things on the CV/GATE lines of the standard connector cos it's going to confuse people.

Sorry for being off topic! sad banana
dubonaire
JES wrote:
In Ringo's defence, I've got a PhD and write about the history of technology and didn't get the reference either. But I just looked it up, so thanks everyone.


This is thread drift but, anyhow...

I find the Slotin criticality incident one of the most fascinating events in the history of 20th century technology. Not least because Los Alamos was a bunch of gifted scientists creating weapons of mass destruction that they didn't even fully understand. It's also an amazing case study about human behaviour and safety. It blows my mind that Slotin was levering the plutonium sphere with a clumsy screwdriver. Given the time it occurred, I'd hazard a guess that a lot of those guys at Los Alamos were on legal amphetamines, probably not getting much sleep and drinking in the evenings together after long amphetamine fuelled days in the lab developing weapons to kill millions.

I find it fascinating to think of Slotin's experience, because he immediately knew he killed himself but wasn't dead yet, and wondering if he killed others in the room.

Actually this used to be my profile pic:

[/img]
tisaalho
flo wrote:


I'd like to see MIDI any connection on the rear with a 3p KK header (on any module with MIDI, actually). Then everyone can wire that to whatever connector they like in whatever polarity is needed (which certainly wouldn't be a 3.5mm TRS jack in my case), on the front or the rear of the modular... thumbs up No one does that though except Graham Hinton seriously, i just don't get it How does your module connect to the expander?

Cheers Guinness ftw!


The module and expander are connected with a 26 pin 0.05" pitch flat ribbon cable (included with the expander). Sorry to say it won't be possible to inject the MIDI from there. The THRU appears on the jumper pins (0.05" pitch) for polarity selection, but I suppose it's the IN you're more interested in?
JES
tisaalho wrote:
JES wrote:

Thanks for patiently answering so many questions. Let me re-ask one you may have missed. Any planned suppor for MPE? Or, how would the module handle MPE?


Of course, sorry, I meant to answer but that one slipped my mind!

So the initial version of firmware will not have MPE support. At the moment, we don't have explicit plans to support that in a firmware update either, but on the other hand we don't want to exclude that.

What would you like to control with MPE? Per note pitch and volume are obvious targets, on the other hand Spread and Core Stability might give some interesting opportunities for expression cool

Hmm... maybe implementing MPE would be the perfect excuse for me to get myself a Linnstrument/Seaboard etc hmmm.....


Thanks tisaalho.

The only really important thing for the Demon Core at first is that the MIDI through passes MPE data correctly.

So here's what I think I'd need with a Linnstrument to make MPE work with an oscillator module. If you pulled this off, I think it would be the first MPE oscillator in Eurorack.

1. MPE is "note per channel" so 4 note polyphony takes 4 channels. So the Demon Core needs to be able to be addressed 4 channels at a time. This allows, within the MIDI standard, for each note to have its own velocity and aftertouch. This is super useful with things like piano multisamples. It's less critical with analog synths because that's not how people expect to hear them (so much of music is about expectation). But people could learn to change their expectations....

2. Aftertouch and Y axis could be assigned to Spread and/or Stability. Again per note/channel.

Here's a good explanation of MPE (Roli has one too): http://www.rogerlinndesign.com/mpe.html

Also happy to talk Linnstrument vs Seaboard if you are seriously considering one or the other (I own a Linnstrument and a Seaboard block).
elpas0
770 eur? Well, that escalated quickly..
Birth_Chord
This monster sounds absolutely excellent. It says 490 Euros including VAT online right now?

Where is the best place to purchase one as a US resident? Only found on seemingly obscure site so far.
slumberjack
sorry fot that noob question but i simply don't get it:

there are 16 single analoque oscillators 'in' this module?
PopGoblin
Waiting eagerly for this - the midi on the expander is genius...

I see Schneidersladen has 'em listed. Will you be selling online from your own site, or should we just preorder from Schneiders?
Footkerchief
slumberjack wrote:
sorry fot that noob question but i simply don't get it:

there are 16 single analoque oscillators 'in' this module?

Kind of. Digitally controlled oscillators produce a true analog wave, with some compromises. This is a great explanation of the principle: https://electricdruid.net/roland-juno-dcos/
JES
Footkerchief wrote:
slumberjack wrote:
sorry fot that noob question but i simply don't get it:

there are 16 single analoque oscillators 'in' this module?

Kind of. Digitally controlled oscillators produce a true analog wave, with some compromises. This is a great explanation of the principle: https://electricdruid.net/roland-juno-dcos/


Wow. That was an amazing read. I've learned TWO bits of history from this thread.
slumberjack
Footkerchief wrote:
slumberjack wrote:
sorry fot that noob question but i simply don't get it:

there are 16 single analoque oscillators 'in' this module?

Kind of. Digitally controlled oscillators produce a true analog wave, with some compromises. This is a great explanation of the principle: https://electricdruid.net/roland-juno-dcos/


thx for the link. but my question remains. are there 16 individual digital controlled but analoque generated waveforms being produced an the board of this module? one oscillator for each note? or is the some kind of magic happening?
Rex Coil 7
pinkflag16 wrote:
Ringo wrote:


...which caused the death of two scientists. So the symbolism and the name are really not as bad as I thought.



Christopher Winkels wrote:
Ringo wrote:
a nuclear bomb which caused the death of two scientists. So the symbolism and the name are really not as bad as I thought.


d'oh!
Member *Ringo ..... can you hear yourself speak?

I no longer respect your position and no longer feel it's ok to feel the way you do.

I speak for myself, and no-one else.

(... and unsubbed ...)

cool
mskala
slumberjack wrote:
thx for the link. but my question remains. are there 16 individual digital controlled but analoque generated waveforms being produced an the board of this module? one oscillator for each note? or is the some kind of magic happening?


Some kind of magic happening, was the response when I asked about this earlier in the thread.
slumberjack
mskala wrote:
slumberjack wrote:
thx for the link. but my question remains. are there 16 individual digital controlled but analoque generated waveforms being produced an the board of this module? one oscillator for each note? or is the some kind of magic happening?


Some kind of magic happening, was the response when I asked about this earlier in the thread.


to me the answer to your question was a bit unclear. i'd be fair enough for people like me with no specific knowledge of circuitry to get a straight yes or no response. we'll keep waiting for the guys to reply.

peace
mskala
slumberjack wrote:
mskala wrote:
Some kind of magic happening, was the response when I asked about this earlier in the thread.


to me the answer to your question was a bit unclear.


To me, too! I was hoping the manufacturers would give specific details. But I think it's at least clear that it is not 16 fully independent analog cores; they said some significant parts are combined to allow a smaller number of integrators (maybe even just one integrator) to produce what is claimed to be an output equivalent to what would come from mixing the outputs of 16 independent cores. I'm not going to speculate on how that might work, given that there's too much speculation and too few facts in this thread already.
tisaalho
JES wrote:


The only really important thing for the Demon Core at first is that the MIDI through passes MPE data correctly.



It does, the thru is an old school hardware MIDI thru, no processing, filtering etc.

JES wrote:


So here's what I think I'd need with a Linnstrument to make MPE work with an oscillator module. If you pulled this off, I think it would be the first MPE oscillator in Eurorack.

...

Also happy to talk Linnstrument vs Seaboard if you are seriously considering one or the other (I own a Linnstrument and a Seaboard block).


Thanks! Yeah, it seems like an interesting idea to do MPE. I'm not promising anything, but I'll take a look once we've shipped the first batch of modules etc, i.e. I'll hopefully have a bit more time on my hands cool

I'm definitely open for recommendations on Linnstrument vs Seaboard etc. I've tried the Seaboard a couple of times in a store, but somehow didn't "get into it" immediately. But obviously a few minutes isn't probably enough to learn to appreciate it!
tisaalho
slumberjack wrote:
mskala wrote:
slumberjack wrote:
thx for the link. but my question remains. are there 16 individual digital controlled but analoque generated waveforms being produced an the board of this module? one oscillator for each note? or is the some kind of magic happening?


Some kind of magic happening, was the response when I asked about this earlier in the thread.


to me the answer to your question was a bit unclear. i'd be fair enough for people like me with no specific knowledge of circuitry to get a straight yes or no response. we'll keep waiting for the guys to reply.

peace


Whether it's a yes or no depends on how you exactly phrase your question lol

"Does it physically have the same circuitry as 16 ordinary Juno style DCO's would have?": No.
"Does the output signal have the qualities expected of a sum of 16 Juno style DCO's: entirely aliasing free, spectrum extends up to the far ultrasonic, no quantisation of levels (i.e. waveform is analog by any definition of the word), exact quantized frequency/pitch (unless intentionally modulated)": Yes.

Anyway, we prefer to keep the detailed principle of operation a secret for know, as it's unique to us and we've spent quite some effort in developing this. We hope you understand, and let the sound speak for itself!
slumberjack
tisaalho wrote:
slumberjack wrote:
mskala wrote:
slumberjack wrote:
thx for the link. but my question remains. are there 16 individual digital controlled but analoque generated waveforms being produced an the board of this module? one oscillator for each note? or is the some kind of magic happening?


Some kind of magic happening, was the response when I asked about this earlier in the thread.


to me the answer to your question was a bit unclear. i'd be fair enough for people like me with no specific knowledge of circuitry to get a straight yes or no response. we'll keep waiting for the guys to reply.

peace


Whether it's a yes or no depends on how you exactly phrase your question lol

"Does it physically have the same circuitry as 16 ordinary Juno style DCO's would have?": No.
"Does the output signal have the qualities expected of a sum of 16 Juno style DCO's: entirely aliasing free, spectrum extends up to the far ultrasonic, no quantisation of levels (i.e. waveform is analog by any definition of the word), exact quantized frequency/pitch (unless intentionally modulated)": Yes.

Anyway, we prefer to keep the detailed principle of operation a secret for know, as it's unique to us and we've spent quite some effort in developing this. We hope you understand, and let the sound speak for itself!


i didn't asked about 'the same circuitry' i was asking if there were 16 individual analoque osc (what the heck how ever they are controlled, clocked or if their handpicked on a asian backstreet market) as a soundsource. sorry for being pendantic it's just out of couriosity again, is that a yes or no?

thanks for your answer in advance!
Footkerchief
slumberjack wrote:

i didn't asked about 'the same circuitry' i was asking if there were 16 individual analoque osc (what the heck how ever they are controlled, clocked or if their handpicked on a asian backstreet market) as a soundsource. sorry for being pendantic it's just out of couriosity again, is that a yes or no?

thanks for your answer in advance!

If you don't mean "16 individual analoque osc" from the perspective of circuitry, for what purpose or from what perspective are you asking? There aren't 16 individual output jacks.
JES
tisaalho wrote:


I'm definitely open for recommendations on Linnstrument vs Seaboard etc. I've tried the Seaboard a couple of times in a store, but somehow didn't "get into it" immediately. But obviously a few minutes isn't probably enough to learn to appreciate it!


Ok: here we go:

Seaboard is basically a keyboard crossed with a double bass. The squishiness is great but if you aren't a great keyboardist, it won't make you any better. I've played bass for 38 years, so when the Linnstrument came out with rows designed in 4ths, I was thrilled because I instantly understood the relationships among the notes. I wish for slightly more squishiness.

Once you learn to program the Linnstrument, you can do it in less than 5 minutes and don't need a computer. The Seaboards seem to need to be plugged into a computer. Roger Linn personally replies to support queries and usually in less than 24 hours. The Roli people took a week to let me know they'd get back to me in another week. Linnstrument is more expensive.

Or maybe you were asking about the musical usefulness of MPE in a modular context? I can answer that too...

But I won't derail the thread totally so PM me if you want to talk about it more. My opinions are just that. Others may have different ones.
Ringo
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
pinkflag16 wrote:
Ringo wrote:


...which caused the death of two scientists. So the symbolism and the name are really not as bad as I thought.



Christopher Winkels wrote:
Ringo wrote:
a nuclear bomb which caused the death of two scientists. So the symbolism and the name are really not as bad as I thought.


d'oh!
Member *Ringo ..... can you hear yourself speak?

I no longer respect your position and no longer feel it's ok to feel the way you do.

I speak for myself, and no-one else.

(... and unsubbed ...)

cool


I have said multiple times that I don´t like the name "demon core" either. seriously, i just don't get it

Also, I am not responsible for it. The potentially controversial name is the decision of the manufacturer.

However, if I had to choose between two ills, I would slightly prefer a reference to an historical, albeit deadly, nuclear experiment to a module with a supposedly demonic core. Both interpretations are unfortunate in my opinion. I think there is nothing wrong with my opinion.
tisaalho
slumberjack wrote:


i didn't asked about 'the same circuitry' i was asking if there were 16 individual analoque osc (what the heck how ever they are controlled, clocked or if their handpicked on a asian backstreet market) as a soundsource. sorry for being pendantic it's just out of couriosity again, is that a yes or no?



It does not have 16 individual oscillator circuits. It has a single analog oscillator core producing the sound.
southberry
More Demo please ! I'm more interested by what I do with it that I can't do with others ! I don't really care about the technique to achieve this module ,
it looks like the sound source I was missing in my modular ....
tisaalho
southberry wrote:
More Demo please ! I'm more interested by what I do with it that I can't do with others ! I don't really care about the technique to achieve this module ,
it looks like the sound source I was missing in my modular ....


We'll try to get around to doing more demos, hopefully later this month. Is there anything specific that you'd like to hear demoed?
hzzzu
Regarding demos, I could try to do some quick patch demos soon if you have some specific patch ideas. Shoot!
2disbetter
Footkerchief wrote:

Kind of. Digitally controlled oscillators produce a true analog wave, with some compromises. This is a great explanation of the principle: https://electricdruid.net/roland-juno-dcos/


Thank you for the link and info. Fantastic information!
southberry
tisaalho wrote:
southberry wrote:
More Demo please ! I'm more interested by what I do with it that I can't do with others ! I don't really care about the technique to achieve this module ,
it looks like the sound source I was missing in my modular ....


We'll try to get around to doing more demos, hopefully later this month. Is there anything specific that you'd like to hear demoed?


I don't know , a proper video demo of the module must be great. I mean with "16 osc" it must be capable of a really fat sound. I'm a big fan of wave animator stuff and that kind of module to emulate the effects of multiple osc ... this module can save me a lot of HP / patch ... This is what I like in old vintage polysynth ala Polysix / Juno ....
PopGoblin
I got to play around with it at SB16... sounded great to my ears.

Still hoping for a release date soon!?
tisaalho
PopGoblin wrote:
I got to play around with it at SB16... sounded great to my ears.

Still hoping for a release date soon!?


It's already on presale at a number of retailers, and we are aiming to ship the first batch in June.
elpas0
Guys, will you be selling them on your own website? Shipping from Finland to Moscow seems more reasonable, than from PerfectCircuit:)
hzzzu
elpas0 wrote:
Guys, will you be selling them on your own website? Shipping from Finland to Moscow seems more reasonable, than from PerfectCircuit:)


Sorry, we're not currently selling them directly through our website. It should pop up in stores around Europe soon. We're distributed by Alex4 and we hope to have them available in your favorite store soon.

We're looking forward to opening our website when we have gathered the list of stores where our modules are available!
cioaudio
hzzzu wrote:

We're looking forward to opening our website when we have gathered the list of stores where our modules are available!


Looking forward to reading the manual when it's available too.
versipellis
As I mentioned in the other post, I'd love to have someone compare the sounds of this versus the Acid Rain Chainsaw - both seem to fill fairly similar niches, and both individually sound great already wink
hzzzu
Yo, video time! The cool people at Sonic State made a video with Timo at SB19. Here you can see the basic functionality of the machine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JImK0pRbj7s

The manual/quick start guide should be ready very soon. I'll post it here when I've put some finishing touches on it.
cioaudio
Excellent video, thanks to yourself and Timo, so looking foward to the manual but the video covered most things.
ckwjr
A very cool module, but it seems like a much harder sell without the expansion. What was the thinking about not just selling the module and expander together as a poly synth module?

Edit: ok, I get it, purely cost. At current exchange rates it's going to cost ~$860 for the module and expansion. ~$550 for the DCO and ~$310 for the expansion

With something like Atlantis costing $700, we're paying something like an additional 24% for midi/polyphony. Honestly, that doesn't seem outlandish at all, but I still wouldn't buy the DCO alone for $550. I'd wait until I could afford both.

Price-setting for Eurorack polyphony will be a fun task. I'm glad I'm not tasked with it!
hzzzu
Here we go! I made some blueprints for you. I hope you get the idea, though the image size is quite small because MW. This is the current state of the firmware.



ckwjr
So yeah. Extremely expensive on an absolute basis for 20hp of module/expansion. Possibly not outrageous in terms of functionality, which is beastly.
MATSmile
Yeah, main module really needs to have MIDI In otherwise it's just another cloud oscillator seriously, i just don't get it
gummyboy
tisaalho wrote:

The main module + expander, using only the expander CV's: Here you'd set the polyphony to 4, switch the expander to Stream -mode and plug in the four CV's on the expander. You then have four voices playing all the time,


and it says "4 FM inputs for the first four polyphonic voices" on your blueprint


I am a bit confused with "first four polyphonic voices". Does that mean I can have only 4 voices and lose rest of 12 voices if I feed 4 1v/oct cv into 4 inputs on the expander? Or 4 voices and each voice has 4 oscillators or voices(kind of...I can't pick right word here)?

I want to use this with Sinfonion.
Hooft
I'm interested in the tuning- can I get microtones out of this thing?
versipellis
MATSmile wrote:
Yeah, main module really needs to have MIDI In otherwise it's just another cloud oscillator seriously, i just don't get it


I just realized.. So.. wait. The only way to play the individual voices polyphonically is via the TRS MIDI in? Which is only on the expansion module? confused That's.. why. confused
tisaalho
gummyboy wrote:

I am a bit confused with "first four polyphonic voices". Does that mean I can have only 4 voices and lose rest of 12 voices if I feed 4 1v/oct cv into 4 inputs on the expander? Or 4 voices and each voice has 4 oscillators or voices(kind of...I can't pick right word here)?


With 4 voices controlled via the 4 CV's, you indeed have 4 oscillators for each voice.
PopGoblin
I think it sounds great... and have pre-ordered at Schneiders, and waiting eagerly.

Can post samples here, when it arrives
PopGoblin
Any updates on this? (Or updates for your website while we wait?)

cheers!
hzzzu
Hey yo yo!

Super busy action time here! We received the PCBAs and we're currently assembling them with Timo. The final software is nearly finished and we're putting final touches on the test automation.

The website is waiting for some small bits of information and should be live soon! The week (or so) mentioned at the website slipped a bit but we'll try the DCO's time travel feature to fix it. Sorry 'bout the delay! Guinness ftw!
PopGoblin
No worries. Glad to hear that you are making progress!!
cioaudio
I notice the site is up at last, a few new details
tisaalho
Hi all, it's been a bit quiet here as we've been busy finishing up the first batch of modules! All the units have now been put together (by hand, we've tightened quite a few nuts and attached almost as many pot hats etc over the last couple of weeks cool ). Now it's just a matter of getting the firmware in and making sure they work. Here's what the test and calibration rig looks like hihi



So every pair of units goes through here, the firmware is flashed in, the pitch CV's get calibrated to a high accuracy calibrated DAC (the off-white "Thingamajig" module in the picture), every mechanical and electronic thingie gets tested (we built the worst MIDI out ever in the Thingamajig to make sure the MIDI In on the Expander can read even that signal!), the sound output is evaluated by ear, and so on. We want to make sure the modules are perfect before we ship them!

Anyway, all of this high-tech time travelling test gadgetry is finally working as it should be, and it shouldn't be long now that we get the first batch out the door...
PopGoblin
Looking good! Very excited about it...
PopGoblin
Got it - and only had time for a very brief "switch on, get sound through" test.... arrrrgh

Demon Core through QPAAS through Dervish:

https://soundcloud.com/popgoblin/demon-core-thru-qpaas-thru-dervish/s- YY2d5

Can do more after the next weekend if anyone is interested.
hzzzu
Oh maaaaannnnnn... How awesome to hear the first sound samples of our first instrument by someone other than ourselves! love

How’s the manual? If something relevant is missing from there, ping me.

We’re taking a short summer break after the launch and but we’ll try to check this thread now and then.

PopGoblin wrote:
Got it - and only had time for a very brief "switch on, get sound through" test.... arrrrgh

Demon Core through QPAAS through Dervish:

https://soundcloud.com/popgoblin/demon-core-thru-qpaas-thru-dervish/s- YY2d5

Can do more after the next weekend if anyone is interested.
cioaudio
I see Juno has 4 on ebay uk but rather pricey so I've ordered from dv247 (musicstore) at a more resonable price
Robrecht
Just picked mine up this afternoon, with the Expander.



I was mainly interested in polyphony and wow, it doesn't disappoint -- I might be selling my Minilogue now (for my use, I don't mind sending chords through a single filter). The super fat stacked mono sounds are great as well.

Here's a quick recording of my first explorations (Demon Core through MI Ripples, the additional arpeggio's are my Mother 32).



Edit -- some more thoughts. I don't know what magic is performed on what is apparently just a single analog oscillator core, but (taking into account that the voices can't be processed/filtered seperately) it really does play like a polysynth. The clever midi implementation is certainly a part of that, with a "virtual" VCA and full ADSR envelope for each note. And it responds to sustain pedals, too, which is great.

I still have to experiment with the Time Sync thing, but it sounds very cool. Distributing the 16 available voices over unison, stacked octaves and polyphony is easy, the secondary functions of the knobs are all very logical, and there are some clever details like the led blinking to indicate tuning to C and the auto-adjusting TRS midi jack. It just feels like a very well-thought-out, completely finished product. I'm impressed.

Edit 2 -- some more noodling.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/robrechtv/demon-core-test[/s]
The Time Sync feature is interesting. It's like because you can "position" the beating/flanging in time, the sideband harmonics due to the spread/detune almost get their own attack and decay, triggered independently for each note? Which helps to set the notes apart when playing polyphonically, almost in the way that having a separate filter envelope for each note would. Al least that's my impression at the moment.
cioaudio
Mine just arrived from musicstore, first listenable result:

First test

The power ribbon cable was too short for the bottom of my rack.

Not sure I figured out how to allocate voices properly so now to read all the manuals for the modules involved since this is only the second time I've used the rack.
Robrecht
I've only had a couple of sessions with mine after I picked it up two weeks ago, as I had to leave on holiday only a few days later. Luckily, I recorded some of them, and this one happened to fit quite nicely over a time-lapse video I just shot of the view out of my window.



Can't wait to get back home and really explore what this module can do.
dooj88
wow Robrecht, killer stuff. don't normally go for that old school fat poly vibe, but this thing sounds realllly good.
versipellis
Robrecht wrote:
I've only had a couple of sessions with mine after I picked it up two weeks ago, as I had to leave on holiday only a few days later. Luckily, I recorded some of them, and this one happened to fit quite nicely over a time-lapse video I just shot of the view out of my window.



Can't wait to get back home and really explore what this module can do.


That is one gorgeous view!
Robrecht
dooj88 wrote:
wow Robrecht, killer stuff. don't normally go for that old school fat poly vibe, but this thing sounds realllly good.

Thanks! That vibe is right up my alley, and I'm stoked to have it in my rack now along with my more "modern" sounds.

versipellis wrote:
That is one gorgeous view!

Nice, huh? Now I really regret not having put together that small travel skiff to sit on the balcony here in the evenings and play.
wsy
Ringo wrote:
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".


Very tempting oscillator...technically.

It's really a pity that it has a pentagram on its faceplate and a "demon core" because that way it s a no-go for me personally. And I'm generally very interested in polyphonic stuff. Recently, quite a few modules seem to be predetermind to be dark or even evil. i, personally, do not think that it is funny or stylish or meant that way in some cases. I understand that there are people who make nice dark music, but references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.


I'm not going to say I'm taking offense, but I have met and chatted and worked with people who
knew Harry Daghlian and Louis Slotin personally.

A sad story, no matter how you spin it.

Please be kind to their memory; they were doing what they thought was right, for a cause
that all felt was just, and they gave their lives in the process.

- Bill
versipellis
wsy wrote:
Ringo wrote:
Christopher Winkels wrote:
Sounds lovely in the demo.

"Supercritical"?
"Demon Core"?

I guess one could say the modular industry is....



..... at a "Crossroads".


Very tempting oscillator...technically.

It's really a pity that it has a pentagram on its faceplate and a "demon core" because that way it s a no-go for me personally. And I'm generally very interested in polyphonic stuff. Recently, quite a few modules seem to be predetermind to be dark or even evil. i, personally, do not think that it is funny or stylish or meant that way in some cases. I understand that there are people who make nice dark music, but references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.


I'm not going to say I'm taking offense, but I have met and chatted and worked with people who
knew Harry Daghlian and Louis Slotin personally.

A sad story, no matter how you spin it.

Please be kind to their memory; they were doing what they thought was right, for a cause
that all felt was just, and they gave their lives in the process.

- Bill


I was wondering when someone who knew or had a relation to those two would pop in here. :(
missingtwin
[/quote]references to the devil are a red line for me. I mainly use 2xRoland 512 and 2xRoland 521 for 4 voice polyphonic structures. They are not predetermined to be evil.[quote]

Uh oh. I think it’s the church lady.
Satan!
cackland
Robrecht wrote:
Just picked mine up this afternoon, with the Expander.



I was mainly interested in polyphony and wow, it doesn't disappoint -- I might be selling my Minilogue now (for my use, I don't mind sending chords through a single filter). The super fat stacked mono sounds are great as well.

Here's a quick recording of my first explorations (Demon Core through MI Ripples, the additional arpeggio's are my Mother 32).



Very nice. What midi to cv module are you using?

Edit -- some more thoughts. I don't know what magic is performed on what is apparently just a single analog oscillator core, but (taking into account that the voices can't be processed/filtered seperately) it really does play like a polysynth. The clever midi implementation is certainly a part of that, with a "virtual" VCA and full ADSR envelope for each note. And it responds to sustain pedals, too, which is great.

I still have to experiment with the Time Sync thing, but it sounds very cool. Distributing the 16 available voices over unison, stacked octaves and polyphony is easy, the secondary functions of the knobs are all very logical, and there are some clever details like the led blinking to indicate tuning to C and the auto-adjusting TRS midi jack. It just feels like a very well-thought-out, completely finished product. I'm impressed.

Edit 2 -- some more noodling.

[s]https://soundcloud.com/robrechtv/demon-core-test[/s]
The Time Sync feature is interesting. It's like because you can "position" the beating/flanging in time, the sideband harmonics due to the spread/detune almost get their own attack and decay, triggered independently for each note? Which helps to set the notes apart when playing polyphonically, almost in the way that having a separate filter envelope for each note would. Al least that's my impression at the moment.
Robrecht
cackland wrote:
Very nice. What midi to cv module are you using?


Thanks. I was playing the Demon Core Oscillator directly over midi, through the expander, for full polyphonic control.

The shorter notes are my Mother-32 played by MI Marbles, with the Bias parameter CV-controlled by Pressure Points/Brains in four steps to suggest a chord progression. Drums are Euclidean Circles into the Delptronics LDB-2e.
Ceri JC
I see the expander has 4 V/Oct inputs.

Is it possible to (without using MIDI) use these to make 4 x 4 poly voices, with independent V/Oct control?

As an example patch;
Intellijel Metropolis (V/Oct pitch out)-> Elektrofon Klang (turn that V/Oct to 4 x V/Oct signals, arranged as a chord) -> Demon Core Expander's 4 x V/Oct in?
Robrecht
Ceri JC wrote:
Is it possible to (without using MIDI) use these to make 4 x 4 poly voices, with independent V/Oct control?

Yes.

You won't get the internal individual VCAs for every voice that are implemented via MIDI, but in your example patch, that shouldn't be a problem. The four chord voices will change simultaneously, sequenced by the Metropolis, so you can send the entire chord through a single external VCA if you want to.
Ceri JC
Robrecht wrote:
Ceri JC wrote:
Is it possible to (without using MIDI) use these to make 4 x 4 poly voices, with independent V/Oct control?

Yes.

You won't get the internal individual VCAs for every voice that are implemented via MIDI, but in your example patch, that shouldn't be a problem. The four chord voices will change simultaneously, sequenced by the Metropolis, so you can send the entire chord through a single external VCA if you want to.


Sweet. Thank you Robrecht!
JES
Let me make sure I understand: if you use the 1v/octave ins, you do NOT trigger the individual envelopes per voice? So the only way to get that is direct MIDI in?
Robrecht
JES wrote:
Let me make sure I understand: if you use the 1v/octave ins, you do NOT trigger the individual envelopes per voice? So the only way to get that is direct MIDI in?

That's right. There are no gate inputs, the envelopes are only triggered by MIDI.

The typical use case for those four inputs in 1v/octave mode is Stream mode, where the module behaves more like a classical oscillator and just outputs a constant (polyphonic) drone, with the assumption that the VCA/envelope happens downstream in other modules. And then you're VCA'ing full chords, of course, not individual voices.

But with MIDI, those individual ADSR envelopes for every voice work great!
ckwjr
First, I want to acknowledge I made some somewhat critical comments at the top of this thread.

I've been chasing Eurorack polyphony solutions for nearly a year, despite ongoing comments about how Eurorack isn't made for polyphony, etc. etc. etc., I'd suggest this was not true a year ago and is much less true today.

The Demon Core module/expansion combination at its price point is basically unbeatable. I love the way it sounds. The firmware seems pretty solid so far.

Just repeating my earlier comment: price setting for Eurorack polyphony is an interesting problem.

Here's a first take on a portable Demon Core synth:

guigui


That sounds awesome!
sutekina bipu-on
^ you have to remove the s in https smile

I hadn't heard of this module which is too bad because i was just recently focusing on 4 voice modules to do polyphony. Man! So mad i didn't know if this a little sooner or i would have had it ordered by now d'oh!
guigui
sutekina bipu-on wrote:
^ you have to remove the s in https smile

I hadn't heard of this module which is too bad because i was just recently focusing on 4 voice modules to do polyphony. Man! So mad i didn't know if this a little sooner or i would have had it ordered by now d'oh!


Edited.

Thanks!
zoneswithoutpeople
I am hoping there is an actual demon in the module.

Hail Satan!
hzzzu
I just finished recording machines for my prog-metal band's new songs. I did all polyphonic stuff with the DCO.

I'm a "little bit" biased with my comment but the paraphonic use case just rules for me. I tend to run the DCO with a single filter and a single envelope via midi, using the retrig mode. That setup has replaced my Prophet 08 for most polyphonic patches. Even for keyboard playing, triggering the filter envelope on every note sounds very cool to me. The VCA envelopes might be more effective in this sense of polyphony.

But that's just me. It's very interesting to see other peoples' setups and setup ideas for the thing. Also I'm very interested in the concept of multiple outputs you've been talking about. Using all modular polyphonic chain reminds me of the old 8 voice Oberheim SEM. In a good way.

Oh yeah, we're stoked for all the sound samples you've done. It's amazeballs to hear what you are doing with our machine!
Richard deHove
Some of the examples above do sound very good, but in terms of multiple outputs, modulation and overall versatility, four individual analog oscillators are still a very competitive alternative.
ckwjr
Richard deHove wrote:
Some of the examples above do sound very good, but in terms of multiple outputs, modulation and overall versatility, four individual analog oscillators are still a very competitive alternative.


Agreed. These are two very acceptable setups I've used:





Using the Doepfer quad VCO requires quite a bit more time for tuning, but the sounds are lovely.
JES
For those that are using the module and expander for polyphony, how is it with a mono filter after. Do you miss polyphonic filtering, or is poly ADSR on the module good enough for live play?
ckwjr
JES wrote:
For those that are using the module and expander for polyphony, how is it with a mono filter after. Do you miss polyphonic filtering, or is poly ADSR on the module good enough for live play?


You've definitely identified a weakness of the module. I've been using the Filter 8 to create multiple outs and then running it through stereo delay/reverb effects.

I love the way it sounds, but I also really like having the four independent outs of, say the Qu-bit chord in poly unison mode, and I miss that with the Demon Core.

The A/R envelope on the expander is ok. I think it's good enough for a lot of situations, but it may or may not be what you need.
Robrecht
JES wrote:
For those that are using the module and expander for polyphony, how is it with a mono filter after. Do you miss polyphonic filtering, or is poly ADSR on the module good enough for live play?

Even though multiple outputs would be ideal, the single output works well for me through any filter (Ripples, Wasp, Moog).

In my experience, the retrigger option is key. If you're holding a chord with your right hand and playing a bass line on the left, you don't want to retrigger the filter envelope (and re-articulate that higher sustained chord) with every bass note.

Conversely, a lead melody over a sustained chord works best if the filter envelope is retriggered with every lead note, and the fact that the chord goes through the same filter opening and closing again doesn't matter that much, as it's in a lower register.

By setting the retrigger behavior appropriately, I don't really miss having a separate filter envelope per voice, thanks in part to the individual VCA envelopes. Also, sending that mono output through a good stereo reverb makes it super lush and wide.

ckwjr wrote:
The A/R envelope on the expander is ok. I think it's good enough for a lot of situations, but it may or may not be what you need.

It's a full ADSR envelope. You can set the Decay and Sustain stages by holding the Function button and turning the Attack and Release knobs. That's crucial for polyphonic playing, in my opinion, as it allows a new note to draw attention to itself, then fade into the rest of the chord as it goes into its sustain stage.
ckwjr
Oh thanks for letting me know about setting sustain/decay!
tisaalho
Okay, it's time for the first official firmware update, v1.1 is out, see http://supercriticalsynthesizers.com/demon-core-oscillator/ (end of page)!

The update fixes two things:
1. Since the control for the amplitude in the virtual VCA's is digital, there is some inherent noise when the amplitude is changing, and this was audible on medium attack and release. However, the level of the noise was _much_ higher than strictly necessary, and the new firmware takes advantage of that to reduce the noise to essentially inaudible.
2. There was a bug where the maximum frequency was limited to about 600Hz, if the module was set to Pulse waveform, five voices, stack of three. The limit has been lifted to 2.5kHz.

Hopefully you'll have no problem updating!
ckwjr
Updated the firmware; thanks!
hzzzu
Nuts & bolts day! We’re listening 80’s pop today. This second batch is going to be bubbly. The playlist’s name is titled ”80’s - Miami Cocaine”. Last batch was made to the beats of Aavikko.

https://youtu.be/FahP_uCHxQI

[/url]
hzzzu
[s]https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/676815510[/s]

Härifrån tvättas! This is a teaser of a new prototype we're working on. All the filtering and distortion is from this new circuit. No external modules used apart from the Demon Core Osc. Its's set on basic 2 saw mode with 8 note polyphony.

So far we've described the machine to be/have "SEM-my", "liquid", "crunchy", "distortion for days", "capable to be very unstable", "formant-y" and of course basic "fat". Depending on how you adjust it.

It's analog.
dooj88
looking forward to hearing those modes!
Robrecht
Yeah, that sounds spectacular. Very versatile, from clean to dirty, even a bit of WASP-y warble around 4:40. love
tisaalho
dooj88 wrote:
looking forward to hearing those modes!


"Modes? Where we’re going, we don’t need modes."
JM Midnight
hzzzu wrote:
[s]https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/676815510[/s]

Härifrån tvättas! This is a teaser of a new prototype we're working on. All the filtering and distortion is from this new circuit. No external modules used apart from the Demon Core Osc. Its's set on basic 2 saw mode with 8 note polyphony.

So far we've described the machine to be/have "SEM-my", "liquid", "crunchy", "distortion for days", "capable to be very unstable", "formant-y" and of course basic "fat". Depending on how you adjust it.

It's analog.

This is dirty and pornographic! After listening to this demo, I had to take a shower to wash off all the sleaze... and that's exactly why I want this.
hzzzu
Hi y'all!

Quick update! We're planning to add more stuff in the DCO. The new firmware 1.2 is already in my modules for testing but I thought I'd let you know about this at this stage:

- Since there's a hidden FM LFO behind the modwheel and FN + FM, why there shouldn't be a portamento? That would be behind VOICES + FM. Let's make it poly portamento as well! Goes from quick to 10 seconds.

- There's also a mode for the four CVs in the expander to also act as polyphonic gates. The gates are triggered from a quick change in pitch CV. The gate/sustain length is set by FN + expander FM AMOUNT. So in gated mode you get four polyphonic pitch CVs with triggered VCA ADSR-envelopes.

Of course there's some bug squashing, but I'm totally stoked of these two new features. The CV gating sounds very cool when using with uO_C's four channels of turing machine. The poly portamento is all THX intro stuff atleast on my hands.

We'll let you know when it's ready.

I'm in the process of making two series of videos which we're releasing on our instagram account @supercriticalsynthesizers. They can be found also on our facebook site. One is a video tutorial series about all the handy features and the other is about some applications you could use the DCO on.

https://www.instagram.com/supercriticalsynthesizers/

https://www.facebook.com/Supercritical-Synthesizers-1177067052394598
ckwjr
Fantastic. I don't recall experiencing any bugs since he last firmware update, but the new features are very welcome!
Robrecht
Yay, those are two features from my "imagine if they managed that" list!

After enjoying the hidden LFO, I'd been thinking about portamento as the only thing missing from the excellent midi implementation.

And for CV control, I always wondered if there would be a way to "generate" individual gates by listening to CV jumps. Kind of like the way Rings does it if nothing is plugged into Strum or In... Of course, Rings only requires a trigger, not a gate off event, so I didn't know how you could derive that. But setting the length globally with one of the button/knob combos is a good solution!
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