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Re-release (and use) of Cwejman S1 MKii in 2019
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Modular Synth General Discussion Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author Re-release (and use) of Cwejman S1 MKii in 2019
Sir Ruff
I have always loved standalone semi-modular stuff (EML 101, Bugbrand Synthvoice) for the self-imposed limitations and removal of expansion potential. And so the S1 has always been an object of desire but also well out of my price range in recent years.

But with the re-release of new S1s now imminent, I am wondering how it still holds up in the current market, which is vastly different from when it was available 10 years ago or so. There are a zillion more semi-modular pieces in particular these days, many for a fraction of the cost of an S1 (which will clock in around 3500 EUR). Not to mention the fully modular market is massively expanded.

Curious what people think about it these days and if they'd still consider it the be-all end-all for modern semi-modulars?
chaosick
Sir Ruff wrote:
I have always loved standalone semi-modular stuff (EML 101, Bugbrand Synthvoice) for the self-imposed limitations and removal of expansion potential. And so the S1 has also been an object of desire but also well out of my price range in recent years.

But with there-release of new S1s now imminent, I am wondering how it still holds up in the current market, which is vastly different from when it was available 10 years ago or so. There are a zillion more semi-modular pieces in particular these days, many for a fraction of the cost of an S1 (which will clock in around 3500 EUR). Not to mention the fully modular market is massively expanded.

Curious what people think about it these days and if they'd still consider it the be-all end-all for modern semi-modulars?


I completely agree with you. But I'm sure it will still sell out immediately/be sold for double the price on the used market because Cwejman still has that allure, whether or not it's actually deserved in the current market. As far as sound quality goes, I'm personally quite satisfied with my AJH Synth and AQA/ACL stuff, and haven't heard anything from Cwejman or any other company that tops them.
cycad73
I’ve never been able to understand the hype. When I had one it was one of the most clinical sounding instruments I had ever used. With today’s prices, you can go much further with Serge or vintage Roland 100m stuff. I just don’t get why anyone would prefer the Cwejman tone or functionality... but people do, it obviously is popular and their Euro modules are some of the most coveted. Another thing I’ve never been able to understand.
???
I got one of the new units. It's really incredible. The cwejman build quality is awesome, but the ins, out and power on the back feels like a weird design choice (just my opinion) as you can't use it without some kind of rack...

The sound is really good too. It sound clinical in the sense that it's not moving around and doesn't have much mojo/vibe going on. But it's utterly precise and clean. It respond to modulation in a very subtle way. I mean even the envelope are crazy. For exemple, the first part of the increasing the attack is basically a fade out of the attack click, which means you can get it as clicky (or not) as you want. Audio mod on the filters is also really musical and predictable. I've read once that cwejman was like having the analog sound with the predictability of a vst synth. I think that covers the basic.

The cwejman doesn't really do fat and warm like the dreadbox synths (can't compare to serge as I've never own any), which I really like. You can program them in that way, but it doesn't really get there in my opinion. I think the sound quality of other manufacturer is totally on par with cwejman. I really like AJH too and the Kilpatrick oscillators are the best I've ever heard. So yeah other manufacturers rival with cwejman without questions.

I aslo think that the semi modular aspect is pretty nice. You can dial pretty complicated sound easily. But it's still a pretty open architecture. That's the biggest advantage for me.

Overall I would say I don't get the hype either. It's really good at what it does but it's not a synth or semi to end them all. It's an incredible synth with it's own style. I think it's worth the money quality wise, you get what you pay for. While I get the S1 can totally hit the spot for someone, I still prefer my modular (6u and about the same value). And I feel you can get much more diverse stuff with all that money. I think a major part of the hype is just unavailability. Imagine the last 100 serge panels produced 10 years ago...
Sir Ruff
thanks all for input. some comments, re: comparisons to sys-100m or Serge panel (or my old EML-101) made me think about relative value, and arguably all those units deliver about the same level of functionality for about the same price. If anything, the sys-100m delivers less, and the serge more, but there are other things to take into consideration there (vintage vs. modern sound, connectivity to outside world, etc) that might sway people one way or another.

my takeaway: in the self-contained world at least, the S1 probably still holds its own in that price bracket.
chiasticon
fyi: big city music has some of the recent batch of s1’s right now. guessing they’ll go quickly...
BTByrd
I always wanted one of these but couldn't justify the price, especially since they're all built by robots and they could be cranking these things out like gangbusters. I don't get the whole Cwejman artificial scarcity thing. Well... I think I *do* get it, but it seems stupid and I don't really care to deal with manufactured non-manufacturing. Drum up the hype machine about your unobtanium and drop a new release once every... half decade or whatever? Get it together Wowa. [Edit: Perhaps this is an unfair characterization of the practices]

My preferred "poor man's S1MK2" is the FutureRetro XS. Jared is a lovely person and I have owned all of his synthesizers... I still regret selling my 777 sometimes, but I just loved playing the XS so much more. I'm more of a player than a sequencer, so that's ultimately what was decisive. In any event, it was way cheaper than Cwejman, and can really scream fire because of all the opportunities to drive it internally. Gainstaging is key. For a bigger budget solution that's fully modular, vintage Roland is probably the move.

Some people like paying for hype and exclusivity. Some people like buying the only copy of a Wu Tang album and hoarding it for themselves in down their synth dungeon where they make mediocre insect noise instead of real music. But I don't pay for hype. And you won't find me on a waiting list wondering when Wowa will trouble himself enough to get up and actually make something. Perhaps he cannot be bothered enough to simply pick up the phone and call his nice Japanese friends with the robots who actually do the making for him. I do not know what the holdup is. But thankfully none of this is my problem.

I heard a rumor once that Cwejman makes synthesizers. This thread is proof that it's true. I would have liked to try an S1, and still would. Maybe if Cwejman made more of them at a lower price point, Wowa could make even more money and even more people could experience the fun of his designs. Maybe the best strategy isn't to string your customers along forever while they wait for your name-brand Unobtanium. Just maybe.

Anyway, enjoy your S1's people! I really want to hear what people are doing with them. I wish more people were doing things with them. I wish one of those people was me. But Cwejman's operation is a strange beast. Good thing there are many substitutes!
MindMachine
If you like the single instrument but modular approach, check out the Kilpatrick Phenol too.
BTByrd
Whenever Moog drops the Voyager 2 out of nowhere, they need to do it fully modular. Because the Voyager is one of the best monosynths ever, and the only thing holding it back are the lack of distinct patch points for each oscillator and filter. That's really the only semi- part about the semi-modular Voyager, and there wasn't a huge freaking modular community when Bob and Co. designed it the first time. Now there is. But they did an astonishing job anyway, and the next edition should have dual 6-pole transistor ladders with CV control over spacing AND cutoff independently. Do that plus multi-drive and throw an Eventide assend on it for good measure. And let us program that Eventide and put it anywhere in the signal path.
notmiserlouagain
I´m not a Cwejman guy, I never had that kind of money lying around, but I don´t get the spite. I think a lot of it is projection.

I am really fond of people not doing the corporate thing and going the bigger-and-bigger route, in favour of choosing a pace they are comfortable with (I think that is the case here, Bob Moog is another example, it is their legitimate choice).

You could probably laugh at the junkie-like behaviour of the buyers, but then, they kind of enjoy it too, so... seriously, i just don't get it
materialobject
as always with questions like this, it depends more on the individual than the tool. but having owned one for almost a decade, i would say it's the single best analog mono synth in my own experience.

it's precision is the the thing almost everyone agrees about. it really is exactly a precision instrument and the little details such as the filters self oscillating right at the part of the knob that shows where it will.. these things might seem small at first but the more you use an instrument, the more you appreciate them.

beyond that, the bottom end / bass capacity of the unit is 2nd to none in the analog realm in my own experience. ive compared its VCOs to everything and the measure of simply pitching it down as low as it can go whilst still being either audible or generating such amounts of barely audible low end sound as to make your neighbours think the NSA is testing some new sonic weapon in your backyard, and / or drilling a black hole to the moon, are clearly there. .. it is really unsurpassed..

again, having used one for near on a decade, its the only piece of analog / euro synthesis that i'm still able to surprise myself with, in terms of finding previously undiscovered sound... everything on it feels a whole bunch of levels above most euro stuff..

if you're into acid techno, this thing here is 100% Cwejman S1.
(track 1)

https://semanticarecords.bandcamp.com/album/material-object-hentai-exh ibition-design-01
BTByrd
notmiserlouagain wrote:
I´m not a Cwejman guy, I never had that kind of money lying around, but I don´t get the spite. I think a lot of it is projection.

I am really fond of people not doing the corporate thing and going the bigger-and-bigger route, in favour of choosing a pace they are comfortable with (I think that is the case here, Bob Moog is another example, it is their legitimate choice).

You could probably laugh at the junkie-like behaviour of the buyers, but then, they kind of enjoy it too, so... seriously, i just don't get it


You can call it spite and projection, but I was trying to call out hype and non-production. I love Cwejman's designs and I wish I owned more of them. I wish lots of people did, truly. And they could, if the operation wasn't run like it is. Or not run, which was my point.

I have always wanted an S1MKII. But I don't want to be their customer. To each their own, but I don't have patience to wait around for years for something that the factory can make, at will, whenever it wants. And I certainly don't have the money to try to buy it.

It's funny that you mention Moog, because I don't have to wait in line for years for Moog to crank out whatever they're trying to sell me. But I'm not buying their hand built vintage monstrosities that cost twelve billion dollars, so maybe I'm just looking at their "normal' product offerings.

Anyway... my vision is of bigger production runs, everything in-stock everywhere, lower prices, happier customers who are satisfied much sooner, no stupid secondary market, and more Cwejman in the world for everyone to make noise with. That's what I want. I don't know why it's not happening, but that's what I want. And I am not even in the market for a synth right now. Cwejman are hiding their light under a bushel. I want them to let it shine because they easily could and I think that would be better for everyone, including Wowa. So though I respect the product and the design greatly, but I can't see a good reason to drum up scarcity for no good reason. Because I think that might be what happened here. Maybe I'm wrong. In either event, let's move on so I don't derail the thread inadvertently by making it about something it's not. Let's keep the thread about the awesomeness S1 and not my admittedly somewhat frustrated critique of the business practices that prevent me from buying one.
adam
a factory can knock out s1's quickly it's true, but it's a complex synth with a lot of parts so will be very expensive to make, and it's only one of a wide range of products, smaller scale production costs money, it's all very well to say just make huge numbers and sell them cheap, but there are considerable start up costs
carnivorouswinds
This is one of the double-edged swords in modular.

I don't think I've ever heard anything compelling come out of a Cwejman module, but I owe this entirely to the fact that the people that can afford Cwejman often have more money than talent. People are trying to buy their way into an artistic scene, and then complain that nothing new comes out of the scene. It would be funny if it weren't so backwards and painful.

The problem with pricing and availability is that these "whales" buy up everything they can, mistakenly thinking that some hidden gem module is going to unlock their creativity. It won't. Instead we get to sift through thousands of videos from old white guys (let's be honest...) that have more money than ability (or sense).

Some of the fault lies with Cwejman, but how many people are screening clients like Buchla used to? Now the bar is charging 5000% markup on all parts and hoping that encourages exclusivity. All it does it keep the next generation of musical instruments out of the hands of real artists.

I've learned to not take any advice from people that are more experienced in posting on a forum than actually using what the forum is about. Keep in mind that 99% of these people take more time posting their opinions to an echochamber than they spend on their instruments. There is no allure about Cwejman to the experienced artist. Wowa is not a musician, has never done anything musically inspiring, and has been in the game for 20 years . If that is the path you want to emulate, go for it.
BTByrd
adam wrote:
a factory can knock out s1's quickly it's true, but it's a complex synth with a lot of parts so will be very expensive to make, and it's only one of a wide range of products, smaller scale production costs money, it's all very well to say just make huge numbers and sell them cheap, but there are considerable start up costs


I did just ask people not to make this thread any more about this topic than it needs to be, but since you're still talking about this... Yes. That is all true. There are considerable start up costs. And I think they were already paid by the nice Japanese people with the fancy robots and the parts and the SMT plant who actually physically put together all the wonderful Cwejman designs for them. I think that those people have already made those investments many times over, and that the considerable start up costs have already been considered. And I don't know why, with those costs having been considered, I can't get a Cwejman S1 in my town and all the fanboys are lining up for years outside the proverbial Apple store. I appreciate their enthusiasm for a very good product. But you won't catch me waiting on Steve to call Foxconn to fire up the iPhone factory. How long have all the proverbial "Big City" Apple stores been waiting to give Wowa money for these? How much money is Wowa not making for himself for whatever reason? I can't tell you how long I've wanted to give Wowa money for one of these. But I am not excited about the re-release, and I was venting some frustration. I am not exactly one to heap praise upon Uli Behringer, but Uli owns his own robots and he brings cheap fire to the masses. Say what you want about his IP practices and whatnot... Uli is getting paid by making a lot and selling it to the people. I think Cwejman could do just the same but without cutting corners, and they could do it yesterday. Or five years ago, frankly. That's a lot of missed opportunity. That's a lot of goo.

But enough about this. I don't want to keep talking about this. I want to hear more things that people are doing with wonderful S1's. Because they are incredible synthesizers and I have always wanted one. No envy, no hate... just love for a great design from a great designer. Say what you want about Wowa's business practices (don't say it here... sorry I mentioned it) but his ability to design a circuit that sounds awesome cannot be doubted for a second. Well done, sir. You design awesome synths that everyone wants to get in line to buy. I used to be one of them. All of the audio in my Eurorack system runs through a Cwejman AI-2. I love the products...

One of my homeboys nearby is a fellow wiggler with SO MUCH CWEJMAN it makes my head spin. He's got multiple S1s and a huge standalone Euro system. I haven't yet had the pleasure yet myself, but I plan on making some noise with those sometime soon! I suspect it will be nothing other than a very, very good time and I am sure that my appreciation for Wowa's design skills will only grow as a consequence. It'll just make me want more Cwejman, dammit. I am happy to have a friend who is willing to wait for Wowa's product. That is a classy product right there... and I'm happy to finally use a boatload of it, if that happens. I wish everyone was using boatloads of it, and I suspect that they could... and that it could happen very easily and that everyone could be better off. Which is why I'm frustrated about people waiting on a re-release. I just don't have the patience for that kind of thing. Perhaps that's just a personal failing on my part. But I don't think it's just me.

ANYWAY....

carnivorouswinds wrote:
This is one of the double-edged swords in modular.

I don't think I've ever heard anything compelling come out of a Cwejman module, but I owe this entirely to the fact that the people that can afford Cwejman often have more money than talent. People are trying to buy their way into an artistic scene, and then complain that nothing new comes out of the scene. It would be funny if it weren't so backwards and painful.

The problem with pricing and availability is that these "whales" buy up everything they can, mistakenly thinking that some hidden gem module is going to unlock their creativity. It won't. Instead we get to sift through thousands of videos from old white guys (let's be honest...) that have more money than ability (or sense).

Some of the fault lies with Cwejman, but how many people are screening clients like Buchla used to? Now the bar is charging 5000% markup on all parts and hoping that encourages exclusivity. All it does it keep the next generation of musical instruments out of the hands of real artists.

I've learned to not take any advice from people that are more experienced in posting on a forum than actually using what the forum is about. Keep in mind that 99% of these people take more time posting their opinions to an echochamber than they spend on their instruments. There is no allure about Cwejman to the experienced artist. Wowa is not a musician, has never done anything musically inspiring, and has been in the game for 20 years . If that is the path you want to emulate, go for it.


This popped up while I was ranting. Quoted for truth. A heck of a post for someone with 9 posts. That's exactly why I was complaining.

materialobject wrote:

again, having used one for near on a decade, its the only piece of analog / euro synthesis that i'm still able to surprise myself with, in terms of finding previously undiscovered sound... everything on it feels a whole bunch of levels above most euro stuff..

if you're into acid techno, this thing here is 100% Cwejman S1.
(track 1)

https://semanticarecords.bandcamp.com/album/material-object-hentai-exh ibition-design-01


Thank you for sharing your opinions and experience with the S1. It's exactly the sort of tribute I wish I could write myself. I'm happiest of all to hear that acid man. Bring that Cwejman acid everyone! BRING IT! I will be paying you for this track later because it's awesome and I appreciate it. More things like this, please everyone!

And I know this is off topic because it's an S1 thread, but since I'm repping my hometown brand of Moog hard in this thread about flagship semi-modular monosynths.... here's 7 minutes of psyfunk from the Minimoog Voyager I once served up in a similar spirit.

Glory to the flagship monosynths! Glory to good design! Glory to acid and bass! Long live the S1! And long live the MK2!
materialobject
to double down on the S1. this is a live performance, that is again, just the S1 + Effects.
https://no-ware.bandcamp.com/track/synthesis
peripatitis
Why is noone complaining about Macbeth's prices or availability?
I think it is unfair to blame Cwejman for the craze, he doesn't really capitalize on it and we treat him as if he is coca cola refusing to make more coke's.
He might choose to have a life instead.

As for the future retro xs, it is not a poor man's s1 mk2, but rather a troglodyte's one,
3 times the xs price seems fair to me smile
BTByrd
peripatitis wrote:
Why is noone complaining about Macbeth's prices or availability?
I think it is unfair to blame Cwejman for the craze, he doesn't really capitalize on it and we treat him as if he is coca cola refusing to make more coke's.
He might choose to have a life instead.

As for the future retro xs, it is not a poor man's s1 mk2, but rather a troglodyte's one,
3 times the xs price seems fair to me smile


The price is fair, but it could be lower and everyone could ball. I can go buy 4 XSs from Jared and polychain them right the fuck now. No waiting, no muss, no fuss. I'd rather do that than wait in line, but fanboys gonna fanboy. Call it a troglodyte's S1 again, sir, and I will invite you to check yourself before you wreck yourself. And don't go trying to bring MacBeth and Coke into this. Please. Wowa's curious business practices seem, to my eyes, to be objectionable in many of the ways that Coke's are. But let's try to keep it funky and focus on the synths and the music. And don't go shitting on Jared's quality product again. It's not an S1 at all. But I can get 4 of them instead, and at this point, I'd rather.
chiasticon
to decide how well the S1 stacks up these days, you have to first decide what to stack it up against. it's got: three oscillators, lfo, noise, ring mod, low pass filter, multi-mode filter, two envelopes, vca, overdrive, midi-to-cv converter, ~60 patch points. what are the alternatives? hmmm.....

first options I can think of:
- TTSH: primarily because the S1 has been compared to the 2600 many times. both offer things the other doesn't, but they're about 80% comparable. a built TTSH currently fetches about what a new S1 does. quality vs Cwejman... depends on the builder, and I don't know how well those circuits stack up against the legendary precise Cwejman ones.
- Grp A4: just like the TTSH, I'd say it's about 80% there. there are some differences, and things one or the other lacks. the huge difference here being minimal patch-points. so a different workflow internally and limited external patch-ability. currently costs $1k more than the S1. I don't know anything about the build quality of them. also it looks huge versus very compact S1.
- Moog Matriarch: maybe a weird comparison...? the synth architecture is similar though; the main difference is probably in the filter section. and the Matriach also offers: paraphony, a keyboard, arpeggiator, sequencer, analog delay, 90 patch points. cost is just over half what the S1 costs. obviously these aren't out in the wild yet to judge build quality, but the reputation for Moog build quality is quite good.

my takeaway is that the Matriarch is a pretty good value for what you get! I think the S1's scarcity will help it maintain it's value over time, while there will be more Matriarchs out there and probably in a year you can get one for 25% less, while a new S1 purchased now could be re-sold in a year for 50% more. A4's seem to re-sell for about 25% less than new, even though production is low for them too. so if you like the sound of the S1, yes it's worth investing in one, if you can get one new. the used prices are simply too high though, in my opinion.
flo
Suggesting that Wowa should operate more like Uli... Seriously? very frustrating

I say Wowa should go back to producing even smaller batches than he does now. At least that would reduce the chance of new modules needing repair or recalibration out of the box. Or should the robots do the quality control, too?
???
Nobody talks about Wowa like he's doing exactly what he wants with his business. He's probably just doing whatever he wants with his designs and productions numbers. Maybe he doesn't care about the crazy second hand market, or the hype. Maybe he does. Whatever...

I just think the fanboy users, those who buy this synth and post pictures of it and listen to it via crappy monitors, and says they are overexcited and that receiving their S1 made them dance with the delivery guys are the ones creating this weird hype. I bet a lot of talented musicians just use it in their studio without anyone hearing about it. For them it's just a tool, not a weird social trophy.
BTByrd
I'm sure Wowa knows his business much, much better than I do, which is why I don't want to critique his practices in any kind of meaningful sense here. But I have tried earnestly to understand why I can't purchase the Cwejman products I would like to purchase, and it does not seem -- from this educated outsider's perspective -- to be an issue with module production or waiting for parts to come in or for Kickstarter funds to clear so they can build the factory. It seems like a deliberate choice by management, and I find that to be and elitist and confusing strategy that keeps the product from the people's hands and their money from Wowa's bank account. I don't get it. But maybe I missed something.

Like I said, I don't have much love for Uli and his business practices, but Uli is cranking out volume and distributing fixed costs over huge numbers to get prices down and push weight. He cuts corners, sure. His IP practices are dubious, to say the least. I'm not exactly in line to buy Uli's products either. But I understand what Uli is up to. I admittedly don't understand what Cwejman is up to except designing awesome circuits and then not building them. All I want to do is make noise, not pay more than I need to, and not be strung along for years waiting for that exclusive new hotness to drop. Because the S1MKII is some exclusive new hotness and I wish I could buy one. But I heard they've got a waiting list, and I don't like to wait around for products that can be assembled on demand.
Dave Peck
BTByrd wrote:
There are considerable start up costs. And I think they were already paid by the nice Japanese people with the fancy robots and the parts and the SMT plant who actually physically put together all the wonderful Cwejman designs for them. I think that those people have already made those investments many times over, and that the considerable start up costs have already been considered. And I don't know why, with those costs having been considered, I can't get a Cwejman S1 in my town...


I also wish we could get a Cwejman S1 MK II available from stock with no long wait and for a low price. Just want to point out that your comment does not reflect how contract manufacturing actually works. Assuming that a company is using a contract manufacturing facility to build their products, rather than their own in-house production capability, they typically have to pay a hefty deposit for the production run to the CM up front, often 50% of all materials, every time they want to start up a new production run of that product. And they may not get finished products until many months later, and they don't actually start getting any of their money back until months after THAT, when Thomann and Sweetwater get around to paying their bills for finished units that they received 60 days earlier.

This can mean that a company has to pay out many tens of thousands of dollars to the CM and then wait half a year or more before they start seeing it come back and pass the 'break even' point. This can be a huge cash flow challenge for a small company that is trying to make a production run of a product that isn't exactly cheap to make. And if they are not careful, this kind of cash flow problem can sink a company because they can literally go broke while waiting for the money they spent to come back in. I've worked in electronics manufacturing since about 1980 in both North America and China and I've seen companies go out of business due to exactly this kind of issue.

Knowing this stuff doesn't do anything to get us readily available affordable Cwejmans, I just thought I'd provide some info about why companies can't always just build whatever they want whenever they want to, even when there are customers ready & willing to buy the product.
chiasticon
BTByrd wrote:
I don't get it. But maybe I missed something.

admittedly I know nothing about the inner workings of his business as well. but my first thought is I think you may be over-estimating the demand of Cwejman products. I’d say even scaling up to Moog levels (~60 employees) of production would even be overstating it. and Moog don’t exactly have their lack of people saying their gear is too expensive. but they don’t have waiting lists either (other than newly released synths not yet in production). how many people does Uli employ? thousands, right?

I’m not saying you’re wrong that a shift in business could change things. I just think pointing to Uli and saying “do it like him, it’s easy” doesn’t seem like a reasonable expectation.
BTByrd
Thank you for that, Dave. Genuinely! I admittedly don't know how contract manufacturing works in the synth industry and that was a helpful and concise overview. Though I'm a builder, I don't build synths and it is easy to project issues in one's own industry onto other industries. And I certainly don't want to misrepresent the situation, so thanks for pushing back on my pushback.

I know that's impossible for most synth builders to deliver a product that they build in-house unless they charge a fortune or deliver very slowly. I remember waiting for more than a year for Paul to build me a MOTM 440, but he had always told me "I'm slow, but I do good work." And that made sense to me. And when he kickstarted the E370, that made a lot of sense to me. But because I have no idea about contract manufacturing for electronics, the Cwejman situation just doesn't make sense to me. I'm still not sure it does, but thanks again to Dave for providing me with a helpful and concise explanation of the issue.
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