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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

SP-12 Turbo vs SP-1200
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> General Gear Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author SP-12 Turbo vs SP-1200
Mind Flayer
I'm seriously considering picking one of these up. I'm just not sure if I can deal with the 5 second sample time limitation on the turbo, but maybe if I can get by with 10 secs on the 1200 I could deal with 5 seconds. But a 1200 is about twice the price of a turbo, so I'm trying to convince myself...

One question I had was about the cassette saving mechanism on the turbo. Unlike the 1200, which uses floppy disks, apparently the turbo allows you to save sequences AND sounds by sending audio data out to a recorder, which in the 80s/90s was typically a cassette recorder but these days could be a digital recorder. I have a little tascam digital 4-track that would be great for this purpose.

Does anybody have any experience using the cassette save feature on the turbo? I have read that the process can be slow (10 mins to save), and I think I'm okay with that. But is it reliable? I've read that the process could be prone to errors, and the turbo manual even seems to hint at this, but I'm thinking a lot of that may be due to recording to old crappy cassette decks as opposed to sending the audio output to a digital recorder.
cs1729
yeah its slow. i think once you set the levels right with a good recording it is fine. there is also a verify function.

you can also try to use emxp to save over mid which should be faster. i still havent got a chance to try it
Mind Flayer
cs1729 wrote:
yeah its slow. i think once you set the levels right with a good recording it is fine. there is also a verify function.

you can also try to use emxp to save over mid which should be faster. i still havent got a chance to try it


Thanks. How do you like yours? Would you recommend saving the extra $ for the 1200?
pulse3000
SP12 all the way . Why ?

1) SP1200 is mojo machine. Thats why rats are asking double the price of Sp12

2) Technically same, 1200 has double the memory . I never personally reached the full capacity, 5 secs on Sp12 is more than enough . 0.4 between 0.7 sec is maximum time for a single shot of a drum sound .
So you have plenty of time to arrange a cool drum set, 1 bass , 1 synth line or a loop. (you looping the short sounds, I guess you must know it)

3) SP12 has more balls in its sound. (my personal taste) . I feel has more bass. (I owned both)

4) Sounds remain in SP12 after power off without needing to save them. Amazing !!!!

5) Now, biggest factor for me , EMXP only supports SP12 . And with EMXP you can turn any format into SP12 , and load instantly . You can make a nice selection of drum sounds or whatever in your computer , and with EMXP you can load them instantly .
SP1200 not supported.
Midi dumped samples sounds always more powerful than sampling the same sound into machine . Way more powerful, with perfect attack times and each drum will be normalised levels inside of the machine.
And all those banks you create on EMXP will remain in your computer which will be ready to load via EMXP anytime instead of waiting long saving times and mediums to hassle with .

6) Instead of paying 4500 rat price for SP1200 , go and get yourself a SP12 for the lesser price , and for 500-600€ , add an Emax 1 to your plan

SP12 + Emax I combination eats SP1200 everyday , any day.

2cents
Panason
There are two SP1200 clones in the works, I'd hang on for a bit.
cs1729
Mind Flayer wrote:
cs1729 wrote:
yeah its slow. i think once you set the levels right with a good recording it is fine. there is also a verify function.

you can also try to use emxp to save over mid which should be faster. i still havent got a chance to try it


Thanks. How do you like yours? Would you recommend saving the extra $ for the 1200?


i like it. its one of those things that seems to make anything you put in it sound better. i havent really ever used a 1200, just repaired a few. i like the idea of the sounds being kept in memory so its good for me.

i want to try to burn eproms and change the stock sounds on my sp-12. i bought a set once and had them switched but i didnt really like the samples he used.
CosmicFlight
Panason wrote:
There are two SP1200 clones in the works, I'd hang on for a bit.


SP1200 owner here

But yeah, you'd really wait a bit for the clones,
Isla Instruments is doing the SP2400 Mr. Green

Which is the other clone Panason ?
Mind Flayer
CosmicFlight wrote:
Panason wrote:
There are two SP1200 clones in the works, I'd hang on for a bit.


SP1200 owner here

But yeah, you'd really wait a bit for the clones,
Isla Instruments is doing the SP2400 Mr. Green

Which is the other clone Panason ?


I believe Behringer is doing one too.
Panason
Don't know about Behringer, here's the other one

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-elect ronic-music-production/1246125-im-building-sp-1200-clone-few-extra-fea tures.html

Both clones are being done by small and relatively inexperienced teams so it might take a while.. ISLA is still getting flak about the Kordbot issues!
calaveras
Mind Flayer wrote:

I believe Behringer is doing one too.


This is the Behringer cloning I can get behind.
Go out and clone all that digital vintage stuff. The Ensoniq Mirage, PPG Wave 2.3, SP-1200 etc.
pulse3000
we want arp 2500 clone too ! applause
tobb
pulse3000 wrote:
SP12 all the way . Why ?



2) Technically same

3) SP12 has more balls in its sound. (my personal taste) . I feel has more bass. (I owned both)



2) Not really,at all

3) yes,its normal,because technically its not the same,sampling freq is higher...

So for the famous aliasing/crunchy sound you need the SP-1200,that's why is more expensive and more wanted then the SP-12...
pulse3000
yes he should pay 4500 eu for this crunch .
crunch on emax not enough . is not the same crunch . you need 4500 eu crunch . otherwise doesn't work .

never ending stuff wink
Sir Ruff
Clearing up a few things here:

-B* is not cloning the 1200; Isla Instruments and another independent maker (Low_Hiss) are making clones. Of the two, the Low_Hiss model will be closest sounding to the original. I would honestly wait for that one, hopefully within 2019. Probably $1k or less.

-EMXP makes saving on the SP-12 seamless. It's a matter of like one or two minutes save time MAX vs. the 10 mins using the old commodore drive.

-Being able to turn the SP-12 off and on and have your samples there is great, but once you get the HxC drive for the 1200, it's basically at the same level--the 1200 will load whatever your last "disk" was when you switch it on, it just take a few seconds longer. Then you can load an infinite number of disks/songs with a button push, whereas the SP-12 is obviously stuck with the one set of samples unless you save/load externally.

-the SP-12 and 1200 sound virtually IDENTICAL. The 1200 is ever so slightly grungier, but you would really have to be listening to it to hear it and the aliasing quality is basically the same on both. I A/B'd my two machines and it took some very focused listening to hear any differences (even when pushing sample pitch to extreme before sampling to maximize artifacts).

Any other differences people cite--filters sounding different, bass differences, etc., are almost certainly due to the fact that these machines are 30 years old now and probably need calibration, re-capping etc. There's a lot of hearsay/mythos that gets tossed around with these machines so take what you read with a grain of salt.
pulse3000
Sir Ruff wrote:
Clearing up a few things here:

-B* is not cloning the 1200; Isla Instruments and another independent maker (Low_Hiss) are making clones. Of the two, the Low_Hiss model will be closest sounding to the original. I would honestly wait for that one, hopefully within 2019. Probably $1k or less.

-EMXP makes saving on the SP-12 seamless. It's a matter of like one or two minutes save time MAX vs. the 10 mins using the old commodore drive.

-Being able to turn the SP-12 off and on and have your samples there is great, but once you get the HxC drive for the 1200, it's basically at the same level--the 1200 will load whatever your last "disk" was when you switch it on, it just take a few seconds longer. Then you can load an infinite number of disks/songs with a button push, whereas he SP-12 is obviously stuck with the one set of samples unless you save/load externally.

-the SP-12 and 1200 sound virtually IDENTICAL. The 1200 is ever so slightly grungier, but you would really have to be listening to it to hear it and the aliasing quality is basically the same on both. I A/B'd my two machines and it took some very focused listening to hear any differences (even when pushing sample pitch to extreme before sampling to to maximize artifacts).

Any other differences people cite--filters sounding different, bass differences, etc., are almost certainly due to the fact that these machines are 30 years old now and probably need calibration, re-capping etc. There's a lot of hearsay/mythos that gets tossed around with these machines but so take what you read with a grain of salt.


Absolutely true facts .
I also owned both for a long time
Never really heard a super sonic difference

There is no any crunch difference of 2000 eu, don’t think so wink))

But on the other hand there will be always people who will push this idea and therefore the market . Probably a 1200 owner

For the OPs decision , I would stick with Sp12 + emax
revtor
Sir Ruff wrote:
Clearing up a few things here:

-B* is not cloning the 1200; Isla Instruments and another independent maker (Low_Hiss) are making clones. Of the two, the Low_Hiss model will be closest sounding to the original. I would honestly wait for that one, hopefully within 2019.



Clearing up the clear up...
No one knows which will sound closest to the real thing at this point. As we all know in the synth world, a couple crappy prototype demos do not define the sound of a machine in its entirety. I know both parties are trying very hard to match the original (down to analyzing the algorithms, which are public knowledge) the main difference between the two will probably be feature wise, filters, effects, I/O, memory etc. And interface of course. Rubber pads versus plastic buttons, dual knobs versus single knobs, extra buttons, less buttons, etc.

Let’s not spread false info at this point..
-Steve
Sir Ruff
revtor wrote:
Sir Ruff wrote:
Clearing up a few things here:

-B* is not cloning the 1200; Isla Instruments and another independent maker (Low_Hiss) are making clones. Of the two, the Low_Hiss model will be closest sounding to the original. I would honestly wait for that one, hopefully within 2019.



Clearing up the clear up...
No one knows which will sound closest to the real thing at this point. As we all know in the synth world, a couple crappy prototype demos do not define the sound of a machine in its entirety. I know both parties are trying very hard to match the original (down to analyzing the algorithms, which are public knowledge) the main difference between the two will probably be feature wise, filters, effects, I/O, memory etc. And interface of course. Rubber pads versus plastic buttons, dual knobs versus single knobs, extra buttons, less buttons, etc.

Let’s not spread false info at this point..
-Steve


OK, probably still too early to say which one will be the definitive one, and this thread really isn’t about those clones, but I have heard demos of both of them and the low_hiss model sounded way more on target, even in the “crappy” demo. It’s also apparent that philosophically they are trying to recreate an SP1200 in 2019, as opposed to the ISLA version, which will be more of a 2019 SP1200.
francoprussian
It should be noted that the pi1541 project to replace the Commodore floppy drive also works well on the SP12, discussion here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-elect ronic-music-production/1049320-emu-sp-12-emxp-2.html

EMXP is good too but means having a computer around to load sounds.

SP12 and 1200 work in virtually identical manner, the only significant difference in my opinion is the sample time. It's really easy to go from one to the other without having to figure out the different features. Having samples load from floppy is faster on the 1200 because it uses more modern drives and can be fitted with Gotek/HxC. But i don't think the price difference is worth it for those things. SP12 really is good enough for most things.
Sir Ruff
yeah, the new commodore disk drive emulator is a pretty big development! i guess the only downside is that saving still takes ages.

Actually, this reminds me that there are a couple of additional features on the 1200 that aren’t ever mentioned: 1) you can reverse the samples; 2) there is an alternate channel option for allowing two-note polyphony for a sound across two channels when nothing is playing in the second channel. That was a surprise to me.

There may be a few more system/floppy related features that I can’t remember.
1040df
I have a SP12 Turbo. I'd suggest getting it over the SP1200. SP1200 prices are pure insanity.

EMXP is the way to go.

I have the PI1541. Of course it is way better than having the original commodore floppy drive. You and save as many floppy images as you have room on your SD card, which would be a billion. But it takes just as long to save/load as the original floppies did. Which is a real shame. Pretty easy to setup too.

My own opinion here. But who cares about the remakes. The whole magic to these goofy big box drum machines is all the old tech and work arounds you do. I seen a recent interview with the lead E-mu engineer that created the SP12/SP1200. When they asked him about a new version he said been there done that. I want to make something new now. I agree with that. They wont be the same.

Also SirRuff and Pulse3000 are spot on with their details.
CF3
pulse3000 wrote:
SP12 all the way . Why ?

1) SP1200 is mojo machine. Thats why rats are asking double the price of Sp12

2) Technically same, 1200 has double the memory . I never personally reached the full capacity, 5 secs on Sp12 is more than enough . 0.4 between 0.7 sec is maximum time for a single shot of a drum sound .
So you have plenty of time to arrange a cool drum set, 1 bass , 1 synth line or a loop. (you looping the short sounds, I guess you must know it)

3) SP12 has more balls in its sound. (my personal taste) . I feel has more bass. (I owned both)

4) Sounds remain in SP12 after power off without needing to save them. Amazing !!!!

5) Now, biggest factor for me , EMXP only supports SP12 . And with EMXP you can turn any format into SP12 , and load instantly . You can make a nice selection of drum sounds or whatever in your computer , and with EMXP you can load them instantly .
SP1200 not supported.
Midi dumped samples sounds always more powerful than sampling the same sound into machine . Way more powerful, with perfect attack times and each drum will be normalised levels inside of the machine.
And all those banks you create on EMXP will remain in your computer which will be ready to load via EMXP anytime instead of waiting long saving times and mediums to hassle with .

6) Instead of paying 4500 rat price for SP1200 , go and get yourself a SP12 for the lesser price , and for 500-600€ , add an Emax 1 to your plan

SP12 + Emax I combination eats SP1200 everyday , any day.

2cents


I’ve owned all three, and I’ll take an Emax SE rack every time over the others.
1200 prices are ludicrous, and honestly so are SP12’s too. I’d pay maybe $500-700 MAX for a 12. Some of the current eBay/Reverb/CL prices are insane ($1800+!?!?).
On the Emax you get variable sample rate between 10-48hHz. Plus actual real programming tools like Lfo, envelopes, filter w/res, looping, layering, sysex control, etc etc etc.
I understand the appeal of the drum machine workflow and the physical interface (sliders), but there are way better sequencers and these machine crazy overpriced. To each their own I guess.
tobb
I own two SP-1200 and i strongly recommend to pay the xtra and get the 1200 because there are more advantages over the Sp-12

-Saving sounds
-THE sought after sound of the machine
-and easier to sell back despite the higher price due to more wanted over the SP-12 ,will maintain its value over the SP-12

BUT if you can get a good working SP-12 for way much lower then the market price,then i would definitely buy it...

Anyway buy these machines only when they are in pristine condition,better for the day you want to sell it back.
Sir Ruff
tobb wrote:
Anyway buy these machines only when they are in pristine condition,better for the day you want to sell it back.


this I agree with--the difference in price between a beater and a collectors machine usually is not great enough to justify going for the cheaper option. And what you save you will probably have to then spend (plus more) on cleaning/replacing sticking pads or buttons that need extra pressure to work. This seemingly minor stuff REALLY kills your flow quickly.
1040df
Bruce Forat still refurbishes these machines. If you can acquire a cheaper SP12 that needs some TLC. Of course I mean within reason. You can always send it to Bruce. Thats why you never see used SP12 that don't work. They all end up getting fixed or cannibalized. For half the price and maybe a few hundred in repairs (YMMV) you'll get a deal. Or you can pay $2600. He also does mods. One which is worth the price is the audio input monitor. For those that don't know you can't hear the incoming audio when you are sampling. I always hated that. Just a thought..
Sir Ruff
1040df wrote:
Bruce Forat still refurbishes these machines. If you can acquire a cheaper SP12 that needs some TLC. Of course I mean within reason. You can always send it to Bruce. Thats why you never see used SP12 that don't work. They all end up getting fixed or cannibalized. For half the price and maybe a few hundred in repairs (YMMV) you'll get a deal. Or you can pay $2600. He also does mods. One which is worth the price is the audio input monitor. For those that don't know you can't hear the incoming audio when you are sampling. I always hated that. Just a thought..


Any competent tech can work on an SP--this isn't a Linn 9000. With Forat you'll just pay more money and wait a lot longer.

Oh, and one more workflow thing that tips the hat in favor of the 1200 (for me):

It's really easy to fill up the 8 User sample slots on the 12 and after that you have to start copying over samples to the preset sample slots (and then deleting from the User slot to free up).

That's not a huge pain if your super organized and can do everything at once. But once you get a pattern going and then start wanting to add samples beyond the first 8, copying and swapping samples between patterns can become time consuming/complicated. It's just another thing that gets in the way of beat-making that the 1200 doesn't suffer from, i.e., you have the 32 sample slots ready to go at all times. And it's not an obvious factor when comparing the two machines.
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