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Serge DUSG / Rampage - Serge NTO / MN STO
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Author Serge DUSG / Rampage - Serge NTO / MN STO
Val
Hello everyone,

I have a hard time making a choice; context: i'd like to expand my 0-Coast.
I already have a Belgrad and a+b*c from Befaco. From there i'd like some stuff including another oscillator and function generator.

I'm hesitating between 2 modules for each function:
R*S Serge NTO or Make Noise STO for an oscillator
R*S Serge DUSG or Befaco Rampage for a function generator

Pros & Cons IMO:

NTO:
+ Sound!
+ PWM / Variable out
- HPs
- No sub
- Price

STO:
+ HPs
+ S-Gate
+ Variable out
+ Sounds good too
- But limited range of sounds
- Not DIY

DUSG:
+ Seems to be "musical"?
+ Good at audio rate?
- HPs again
- Price

Rampage:
+ Feature packed (comparator)
+ Nice interface
+ Price
+ 18 HPs "only"
- ?

I think I'm going to go with the Rampage, unless I'm missing something with the DUSG.
As for the osc, the NTO sounds good but isn't much feature packed I think?

I'd like inputs from users of these modules.

For the osc I'm also into weird digital stuff like orgone accumulator but this one isn't available anymore.

Maybe there is other options out there similar to this but I try to stay away from following eurorack news, I don't want to be sucked in a buying spree. Maybe I can get propositions of similar oscillator modules? Has to be weird and preferably DIY

P.S. aren't Befaco modules wildly underrated here besides Rampage ?

Thanks for reading; Val
gruebleengourd
I have the R*S Serge DUSG, Befaco Rampage, and a Maths...

To choose between them IMO...
the DUSG excels as an oscillator and works well as a slope / trigger generating for creating meta timing in a patch. It's really much larger than it needs to be.

The Rampage and Maths are maybe the most similar of the 3. I prefer the ergonomics of the Maths and I think it would be my first choice of the two if I had that little extra hp, however I would get a Rampage 2nd rather than another Maths if I wanted more slopes.
lud
I'd definitely get maths over the other 2 function generators in Eurorack. Best value, features and layout. You could pick up 2 sto for one nto too, as well as there probably being more interesting vcos in euroland
lud
Look at 258 oscillator DIY options in Eurorack. Worth having a look to see what Thonk have
The Junglechrist
Quote:
DUSG:
+ Seems to be "musical"?
+ Good at audio rate?
- HPs again
- Price


It is indeed very musical, it does sound incredible in almost every situation.
All the audio rate stuff you can imagine will be fabulous as with most Serge design.
As an envelope generator is a little bit weird when you are used to other envelopes but it greatly compliment the slope and contour of the 0-Coast.

I can speak as a previous owner of the Serge in Euro, now I have the 4U R*S version, as well as the 0-Coast.

I never tried the NTO but I had the STO for a while and didn't liked it very much (even tho i'm a big Make Noise fan as well).

The Rampage is very cool, more easy access of some of the functions of the DUSG but still less flexible as Maths as a pure utility module (I think).

Good luck making you mind about thise.

PS : If I where you I would be full Serge or full Make Noise I think.
grape tony
I have a small random source euro w/ two MN STO's in it instead of 1 NTO. I personally love this FWIW
Val
I'm surprised the STO gets more praise than the NTO. They have somewhat similar timbre but one is two times cheaper than the other indeed...
I haven't found another oscillator I like on thonk. Maybe Even VCO from Befaco, seems good but too "simple"; more like an alternative to Intellijel i'd say

Outside DIY I really like Endorphin.es modules: Furthrrrr and the forthcoming Godspeed. Shuttle system ... well.



As for slope/function:

I'm not interested in maths, I already have a module that can do the little attenuverting and stuff. From there I don't think maths is better than rampage.

As I expected the DUSG is good at audio, but would I use it as an audio source? Right now I'm looking for an envelope generator/CV tool so maybe I should go for Rampage ...
Also it would compliment the slope circuit of the 0-coast which can does LIN/EXP on both rise/fall, with rampage you have to choose (or patch it use both sides i guess)


Quote:
PS : If I where you I would be full Serge or full Make Noise I think.

Sometimes I think about getting a "full" system but there's too much good stuff in every brand. See Xaoc modules. Full Xaoc/Befaco would be cool. But doing this I'd miss the Erica analog flanger/delay DIY module ..... another topic.

I'm set on the Rampage since I'd rather have a CV tool oriented module than osc. thanks. Still not sure about osc

Maybe Tš-L. It has PWM & folding in 6hp. But I hate that golden faceplate
luchog
Val wrote:
I'm surprised the STO gets more praise than the NTO. They have somewhat similar timbre but one is two times cheaper than the other indeed...


The R*S Serge NTO is a superb oscillator, with excellent set of features and FM options. More flexible with more options than the STO, with more waveform outs.

Quote:
As for slope/function:

I'm not interested in maths, I already have a module that can do the little attenuverting and stuff. From there I don't think maths is better than rampage.

As I expected the DUSG is good at audio, but would I use it as an audio source? Right now I'm looking for an envelope generator/CV tool so maybe I should go for Rampage ...
Also it would compliment the slope circuit of the 0-coast which can does LIN/EXP on both rise/fall, with rampage you have to choose (or patch it use both sides i guess)


The nice thing about the DUSG, especially if you're getting the R*S mkII version, is that it functions exceptionally well as a utility oscillator on top of its envelope generator duties, so you always have that option. Very useful as an FM source for the NTO. Not necessarily something you'd use all the time, but very nice to have as an option.

The Rampage has a nice set of features on top of its EG capability, but isn't as good an oscillator as the DUSG. There isn't quite as much control over the envelope shape, but the difference probably isn't super huge.

As someone who owns an NTO and two DUSGs, both R*S, that would be my recommendation; but if I feel like I need a third function generator, I'm likely to pick up the Rampage for its additional features. There are the drawbacks of space and cost, of course.
The Grump
The next module on my list is an NTO because they sound AWESOME. Honestly, I don't even get what the debate is. The first thing listed in the OP was:

NTO
+Sound!

That's it, game over. What else is there? The R*S version has the latest tweeks by Serge himself, including a Pulse out, which could easily be frequency divided into a sub. The Variable Waveform output on the NTO is ridiculous. Check out some youtube vids with it going through an O-scope, you'll see the waveforms are like art. They're beautiful.

The DUSG is on the list too, but I'm not giving up my MATHS for it. By the time I get a DUSG, it will probably be a mkII XL in a 4x4 panel or a Mantra, but that's a ways off. The NTO I'm grabbing as soon as I have the loot.

The Rampage is a cool tool, but the MATHS eats it for breakfast. If you have the space and the loot, I'd buy the MATHS first then build the Rampage and have both. They do play well with each other. However, I don't have the space or budget to allow both, so I had to choose the MATHS because attenuversion/offset/mixer and so much more. At heart, both the MATHS and Rampage are just derivatives of the DUSG.

My 2¢. And yes, I have used all of those modules at one time or another (though the Serge stuff was 4U)
MindMachine
I have a Serge NTO and a Makenoise STO. I prefer the STO on its own and the NTO when used for clean FM with another Serge VCO (PCO.). The Serge has a sawtooth and the killer FM In with built in VCA and the Portamento has a VCA control too which is great. BUT for overall everyday standalone VCO in a small case the STO has a lot to offer. To get the full variance out of it's wonderful waveshaper you need to mix an offset with your control voltage. The Doepfer A-183-2 is perfect for this. The STO also has the very useful Gated Sub feature. It lacks the sawtooth, but for the money and space is a great option.

Both excellent modules.
luketeaford
As someone who has lots of r*s and Make Noise, I would recommend Make Noise to more people for more things. I think Maths is much nicer than the DUSG (although I love the DUSG and bought another one tonight...) because it has more flexible envelopes and the mixer section which is next level. Cycle switches are nice, but cycle inputs are better still.

Dusg sounds better as an oscillator, filter, envelope follower, subharmonic generator and any of the other audio rate patches you can think of. If those are the kinds of patches you want it for, I'd get that.

I like the STO very well too but I think it's very sweet sounding-- really clear sound. The NTO has more features and more simultaneous outputs and its linear FM is just a bit nicer sounding.

For size, price and ease of use, I think make noise is what you should go for. I don't really like patching my make noise and r*s modules together, so I don't think it would be especially fun with an 0 coast.

You will not be disappointed either way.
nios
A bit tangential but does anyone know the tracking on the Frap Tools Falistri as an osc ballparks vs DUSG mkII? Supposedly DUSG is about 4 oct, but that's with triangle, and I'm wondering if anyone can gauge how it performs with wonkier shapes (sharkfin, spearhead or whatever other cute names for those less-linear rise/fall shapes).

The falistri I've simply heard "tracks well", but that's a quite relative term for a function generator serving osc duty, and once again I'm not sure how well it performs with odd wave shapes vs DUSG.

My instinct quite firmly points me to DUSG, but, if Falistri happens to handle osc duties truly remarkably well, then it probably shouldn't be left out of this kind of conversation. MY ASS IS BLEEDING
oldenjon
DUSG is probably the most musically useful of the 3 slope generators you mentioned. The others have features that are more extra and/or utilitarian so it depends on what you want. I would look at the upcoming Joranalogue Contour 1 as an alternative to the DUSG. It seems to be an improvement. Unlike the DUSG it is completely re-triggerable, and has feedback compensation to keep the impact of exponential/log slopes on frequency to a minimum. It also has VC hold and VC cycle. It has some other neat features but hasn't been released so I can't comment on how useful they are.

The NTO and STO aren't a direct comparison. IMO The NTO is really meant to be paired with the wave mutipliers and PCO as a complex VCO. By itself, it has some nice 'extra' features like VC-portamento and VC-FM. The variable output is cool, but the amplitude varies quite a bit so isn't ideal as modulation source. It should probably be noted that Serge voltage standards are different than euroack, so you will likely have that issue will all the outputs. It fits better into an all-Serge system for that reason.
The STO offers much less, but fits into a standard eurorack system much easier. You might look at the DPO, Mind Phaser or another complex VCO as a full-featured alternative for the NTO. It's only $100 more.
oldenjon
Actually, output amplitude of the DUSG is a problem too. It puts out a 5V envelope. The Bipolar output is +/-2.5V. That can be tweaked with the trimmer, but the higher you go it will eventually lock up. Eurorack CV inputs accept a range of up to 10V or +/-5V, so that's a bit limiting outside an all-Serge system.
simonefabbri
nios wrote:
A bit tangential but does anyone know the tracking on the Frap Tools Falistri as an osc ballparks vs DUSG mkII? Supposedly DUSG is about 4 oct, but that's with triangle, and I'm wondering if anyone can gauge how it performs with wonkier shapes (sharkfin, spearhead or whatever other cute names for those less-linear rise/fall shapes).

The falistri I've simply heard "tracks well", but that's a quite relative term for a function generator serving osc duty, and once again I'm not sure how well it performs with odd wave shapes vs DUSG.

My instinct quite firmly points me to DUSG, but, if Falistri happens to handle osc duties truly remarkably well, then it probably shouldn't be left out of this kind of conversation. MY ASS IS BLEEDING


Hi! During quality control the calibration test is ok with less than +/-5 cents of semitones on at least 5 octaves. Generally it tracks more!
colb
The Grump wrote:
...The Rampage is a cool tool, but the MATHS eats it for breakfast....


Really?

Maths has the attenuverters which is cool. It also has the logic outs, which could be useful.
Rampage has a comparator and min/max outs. Also trigger buttons which are cool for setting up manually triggered one-shot effects on long ramps.
Rampage also has end of cycle outs for both channels, and separate rising and falling gate outputs for each channel. I use these a lot.
And there's a DIY kit option to make the thing more affordable...

Maybe after Maths has eaten Rampage for breakfast, Rampage eats Maths for lunch wink

Seems like which is best depends on the needs of the user?
oldenjon
I have a feeling this is going to eat Maths, DUSG, and Rampage for breakfast Mr. Green

peripatitis
Unfortunately Joranalogue doesn't have the hype, makenoise does..
oldenjon
peripatitis wrote:
Unfortunately Joranalogue doesn't have the hype, makenoise does..

That's because it's a relatively young company with mostly utilities until now. If I'm not mistaken Filter 8 is the top module on modular grid.... BTW what does hype have to do with functionality and performance?
luketeaford
colb wrote:
Maths has the attenuverters which is cool. It also has the logic outs, which could be useful.
Rampage has a comparator and min/max outs.


You can patch min/max with Maths except that the lowest value you can get because of how OR works is 0 (not anything negative)

There are also a couple ways to patch a comparator-- and there's a way to invert gates but it's definitely cool to have both EOR and EOC per channel.
nios
Quote:
If I'm not mistaken Filter 8 is the top module on modular grid


a.) there's a reason they don't let us sort by top-rated, because ratings are easily thrown off by some guy 1-star spamming things for reasons other than objectivity. There is also so much subjectivity of what works in whose system etc that it's only a loose indicator at best, IMHO.

b.) the highest-rated one I've ever seen there is Sapel at 4.95 Dead Banana

Also while the Joranalogue setup looks quite capable, it might be cheaper and more ergonomic on power (as opposed to burning 4 connections, 30hp and $730), to just use a Compare 2 and a Maths/Falistri, especially Falistri as you then have the more advanced setup of independent lin/exp over rise/fall.

edit - meant to say Compare 2 rather than Select 2
oldenjon
nios wrote:

a.) there's a reason they don't let us sort by top-rated, because ratings are easily thrown off by some guy 1-star spamming things for reasons other than objectivity. There is also so much subjectivity of what works in whose system etc that it's only a loose indicator at best, IMHO.

b.) the highest-rated one I've ever seen there is Sapel at 4.95 Dead Banana

For sure. Filter 8 has both recent numbers and ratings which is why is sits where it does. Joranalogue is quite possibly on the verge of hypedom. Anyhow, I hardly think hype is a concern when discussing the most capable slope generator. I'll leave that consideration to the OP.

nios wrote:

Also while the Joranalogue setup looks quite capable, it might be cheaper and more ergonomic on power (as opposed to burning 4 connections, 30hp and $730), to just use a Select 2 and a Maths/Falistri, especially Falistri as you then have the more advanced setup of independent lin/exp over rise/fall.

It could be paired with just Select 2 for $210 less and still be more capable than Maths/Rampage/DUSG in many ways. Only slightly wider. You get what you what you pay for in terms of cash and HP.
Val
Hello everyone,
I've been thinking about this, and watching more videos about Random*Source products.

First off, about Maths. I said I am not interested in it, it's a good module but indeed, attenuverters aside (which I have), Rampage has more functionality.

Thanks for suggesting Falistri, which IMO is the best since it has a slew and ring mod in it.
The Joranalogue seems very since too.

But

The thing is that i'd like to get some DIY modules. I really like doing this.
Sooo...

oldenjon wrote:
DUSG is probably the most musically useful of the 3 slope generators you mentioned. The others have features that are more extra and/or utilitarian so it depends on what you want. I would look at the upcoming Joranalogue Contour 1 as an alternative to the DUSG. It seems to be an improvement. Unlike the DUSG it is completely re-triggerable, and has feedback compensation to keep the impact of exponential/log slopes on frequency to a minimum. It also has VC hold and VC cycle. It has some other neat features but hasn't been released so I can't comment on how useful they are.

The NTO and STO aren't a direct comparison. IMO The NTO is really meant to be paired with the wave mutipliers and PCO as a complex VCO. By itself, it has some nice 'extra' features like VC-portamento and VC-FM. The variable output is cool, but the amplitude varies quite a bit so isn't ideal as modulation source. It should probably be noted that Serge voltage standards are different than euroack, so you will likely have that issue will all the outputs. It fits better into an all-Serge system for that reason.
The STO offers much less, but fits into a standard eurorack system much easier. You might look at the DPO, Mind Phaser or another complex VCO as a full-featured alternative for the NTO. It's only $100 more.


^this struck me
+

I mean, this:
The Grump wrote:
The next module on my list is an NTO because they sound AWESOME. Honestly, I don't even get what the debate is. The first thing listed in the OP was:

NTO
+Sound!

That's it, game over. What else is there?

Is quite right
I've yet to hear something from the Serge modules that I don't like ...

Random*Source has out put a nice range of module. And if you go DIY it's quite "affordable". What I like is the sound. I heard some RING demos and thought "fuck since when a ring mod sounds so sweet?"
Do I really need to talk about the wave multipliers and VCFQ?

So I'll probably get an NTO, I don't care it doesn't have a sub output, you can "build" a sub with NCOM or DUSG, whatever.

So yeah, I think i'll build Serge modules. In fact i've been eyeing at 4U Serge panels some months ago ...
I don't know who I'm trying to fool, I just like the Serge sound.

I'll see what I can do, with that low voltages outputs.

Really thank you all for all your inputs and ideas, you've been really helpful.
Val
Also:
Does anyone here have been full DIY for Serge? Sourcing parts and all, to lower costs even more. If I plan on doing some of them, maybe all, I should buy PCB / panels and source / buy "in quantity"
mosorensen
One difference between DUSG and [Maths|Rampage|Sports Modulator|Contour] that I really like is that the DUSG has attenuverters for the CVs for fall / rise.

The other modules have controls for shape (log/exp), but the DUSG approach seems much more useful to me, and it is easy to self-patch the DUSG attenuverters to control shape. (okay, Maths also has some attenuators.)

In general, I really like that the Serge modules almost always have attenuverters for all CVs, which I have found makes modules much more immediately "playable."
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