new module hate ( my first one ) ... now what?

Anything modular synth related that is not format specific.

Moderators: Joe., luketeaford, lisa, Kent

User avatar
dannyF
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:43 pm
Location: UK

new module hate ( my first one ) ... now what?

Post by dannyF » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:54 am

I've gotten a new module and its the first one I've not really liked all that much.

I was wondering if I should return it, or is it common to 'get used to it' after a time, to eventually find something you love about it?

Or is it a case of most of the time that doesn't happen so just return it.

In this case I've got a subharmonic generator ( Erica Synths Double Bass ), not impressed with the subharmonics ( seems to be square waves ), I would prefer at least one sine in there.....So in addition to be unenamoured with the sound, the 'envelope follower' I am also not happy with.

Seems that its very abrupt in its built in follower of the signal, to the point where it doesn't really seem like a natural addition to the original sound.

Not sure what I was expecting. Perhaps that's the issue. I did watch the videos first.

Anyway, its clear now what I don't want. Just not sure if I ever will like this one.

User avatar
lisa
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 5093
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:00 am
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Post by lisa » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:13 am

Well, if you bought it from a store and have the option to return it then why not? Life is too short for you not to use your second chances. ;)
New track! Drum synthesis heavy, melodic piece using Instruō harmonàig and Cš-L. 🐡


User avatar
Pelsea
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 922
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Santa Cruz CA
Contact:

Post by Pelsea » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:22 pm

Well, square waves are pretty much all you will ever get from suboscillators, since they use logic chips to divide the input by 2 and/or 4. I usually run the output through a filter, and the Erica is unique in including that in the module. I also combine the sub output with the original, and Erica has included the requisite mixer for that. Probably the best value you will find in that price range.

Before packing it up, try controlling the filter (color) frequency with the same CV that controls the input's pitch.

I find my love for any module waxes and wanes according to the music I am currently making. The only ones I have ever dumped were because of audio issues, not their function.
Books and tutorials on modular synthesis at http://peterelsea.com
Perfection is the enemy of the good.
pqe

User avatar
adnauseam
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 727
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:45 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Post by adnauseam » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:04 pm

Pelsea wrote:Well, square waves are pretty much all you will ever get from suboscillators, since they use logic chips to divide the input by 2 and/or 4.
That's all you'll ever get unless someone does some sort of DSP sub oscillator. Could happen!

User avatar
revtor
Dialing it in..
Posts: 1773
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:31 am
Location: North Jerz

Post by revtor » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:38 pm

Send that square through a low pass filter -round that baby out.
Mix the envelope through a vca to tame it a bit.

If you can’t make it work like you want, move it along. That’s why we have the best modular BST forum here at Muffs.

Steve

User avatar
dannyF
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:43 pm
Location: UK

Post by dannyF » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:49 pm

Seems the built in follower is bizarre or something. I noticed that it was 'clicky' responding to basslines from synth or kick drum from another synth. Like it was only responding to certain transients or amplitudes.

But when I plugged in a straight square or saw it seemed smooth and sounded good.

So its not really working the way I would like it to. I wanted it to affect any sound input smoothly. But it looks like its only designed for simple/basic waveforms ? Don't really understand this because any synth output is a composition of various waveforms..... but whatever...

Too bad, as I really wanted to like this one.

User avatar
Pelsea
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 922
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Santa Cruz CA
Contact:

Post by Pelsea » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:54 pm

It wants simple input. A logic chip based divider will flip on every other zero crossing of the input, so if you give it a wave with multiple zero crossings per cycle, you'll get a buzz of some sort-- probably a couple of octaves too high. Give it burst of percussive noise and it will go mad.

Also, there is a limiter at the output which may produce a clicking sound with something like a drum attack.
Books and tutorials on modular synthesis at http://peterelsea.com
Perfection is the enemy of the good.
pqe

User avatar
dannyF
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:43 pm
Location: UK

Post by dannyF » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:26 pm

Pelsea wrote:It wants simple input. A logic chip based divider will flip on every other zero crossing of the input, so if you give it a wave with multiple zero crossings per cycle, you'll get a buzz of some sort-- probably a couple of octaves too high. Give it burst of percussive noise and it will go mad.

Also, there is a limiter at the output which may produce a clicking sound with something like a drum attack.
I'm afraid 50% of what you said is above my understandings atm.

User avatar
Joe.
Wired for sound
Posts: 5006
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:58 pm

Post by Joe. » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:43 pm

It's very common to sell a module that doesn't quite fit in your system, and try another, particularly with Oscillators and Filters. There are dozens of other options out there, and you should never feel 'stuck' with what you have.

I would either try to sell it back to the store it came from, or pop it on eBay :tu:

Don't forget to watch as many Youtube videos as you can before buying a module, especially while you're familiarising yourself with new functions. 'Through Zero Detecting' and 'bass clicks' are some Jargon you've already encountered in this thread, and there's industry specific words used often to describe (and avoid) certain known issues.

User avatar
unrecordings
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1164
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:50 am
Location: Sheffield
Contact:

Post by unrecordings » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:15 am

I don't have the module, but think I can see the problem and Pelsea is right on the money here. I'd sit with the module for a while & experiment with it. Just try feeding it simple signals to see what it does - a sine wave bassline without any filtering or amplitude modulation, see how it reacts to different tempos - then add stuff in to see what works & what doesn't. By its very nature manipulation of bass can be a bit of a dark art, it sounds like you have the right module, you just need to get used to the way it needs to interact with everything else

User avatar
Gaetan
Common Wiggler
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:53 am
Location: Silkeborg, Denmark
Contact:

Post by Gaetan » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:41 am

dannyF wrote:
Pelsea wrote:It wants simple input. A logic chip based divider will flip on every other zero crossing of the input, so if you give it a wave with multiple zero crossings per cycle, you'll get a buzz of some sort-- probably a couple of octaves too high. Give it burst of percussive noise and it will go mad.

Also, there is a limiter at the output which may produce a clicking sound with something like a drum attack.
I'm afraid 50% of what you said is above my understandings atm.
He means that it doesn't work the same way as if you would for example take a sample in your DAW and pitch it down. If you try to visualize the wave coming out of a VCO, you'll notice that it crosses the 0V line every so often (= its frequency). To get a wave an octave lower (= half the frequency), this kind of module will output a constant voltage at, say, +5V, count the number of times the wave passes through 0, and when it has counted to 4, it will flip the polarity of the signal (= output a signal of -5V), count, flip again, repeat. You will then have a square wave of half the frequency at the output.
It's fairly easy with a basic waveform because it crosses zero twice for every period, so if you count to 4, you will simply get a clean octave lower :
Image
However, if you put something too complex, it will just output something weird, because the crossing of zero won't be meaningfully tied to the frequency of the signal. It's not necessarily unusable (can be fun to use for logic or noise), but it's not the sub-octave you're looking for.

Is it clearer ?

User avatar
dannyF
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:43 pm
Location: UK

Post by dannyF » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:29 am

Gaetan wrote:
dannyF wrote:
Pelsea wrote:It wants simple input. A logic chip based divider will flip on every other zero crossing of the input, so if you give it a wave with multiple zero crossings per cycle, you'll get a buzz of some sort-- probably a couple of octaves too high. Give it burst of percussive noise and it will go mad.

Also, there is a limiter at the output which may produce a clicking sound with something like a drum attack.
I'm afraid 50% of what you said is above my understandings atm.
He means that it doesn't work the same way as if you would for example take a sample in your DAW and pitch it down. If you try to visualize the wave coming out of a VCO, you'll notice that it crosses the 0V line every so often (= its frequency). To get a wave an octave lower (= half the frequency), this kind of module will output a constant voltage at, say, +5V, count the number of times the wave passes through 0, and when it has counted to 4, it will flip the polarity of the signal (= output a signal of -5V), count, flip again, repeat. You will then have a square wave of half the frequency at the output.
It's fairly easy with a basic waveform because it crosses zero twice for every period, so if you count to 4, you will simply get a clean octave lower :
Image
However, if you put something too complex, it will just output something weird, because the crossing of zero won't be meaningfully tied to the frequency of the signal. It's not necessarily unusable (can be fun to use for logic or noise), but it's not the sub-octave you're looking for.

Is it clearer ?
Yep. Thank you.

User avatar
dannyF
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:43 pm
Location: UK

Post by dannyF » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:46 am

I also noticed the dry/wet knob was 'scratchy' sounding. Introducing static too often for my liking. So, I do not think this is the one for me.

User avatar
batch
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1089
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 7:15 am
Location: San Francisco

Post by batch » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:48 am

1. Research what you are looking for
2. Read the manuals
3. Watch the YouTube demos
4. Buy it
5. Anxiously wait for it to arrive
6. Hope it doesn’t get stolen from your doorstep
7. Plug it in (correctly) and try it in your system
8. Decide if it works for you
9. Decide if it’s worth investing the time in
10. If no to #8 and #9 - return it immediately
11. If yes to #9 - spend some time with it
12. If after awhile you still don’t like it/ get it sell it on BST/ ModularGrid and move on.

Life is short, racks are finite spaces, we all make mistakes, new modules keep being released.

After buying and selling a lot of modules I have finally realized I don’t like those that have a lot of menus or screens. This has led me to sell some amazing modules. But I did not know this when I started. The buying and selling is a learning process in and of itself. Just try not to lose too much money a long the way. So if you can return, return!
FS: Metropolis $475, Intellijel Dual ADSR $175 and lots more

User avatar
megaohm
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1897
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:11 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Post by megaohm » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:51 pm

adnauseam wrote:
Pelsea wrote:Well, square waves are pretty much all you will ever get from suboscillators, since they use logic chips to divide the input by 2 and/or 4.
That's all you'll ever get unless someone does some sort of DSP sub oscillator. Could happen!
Scott Stites came up with a suboctave circuit that directly produces saw, tri, sqr suboctaves. Somewhere on the elctro-music forum from years ago.
It was done by switching the waveforms and offsetting/level adjusting (if my memory serves!).
Using all common parts, too.
www.MegaOhmAudio.com

Will work for pistachios

User avatar
Blairio
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:50 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Post by Blairio » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:23 pm

I have a WMD / SSF Spectrum oscillator with a sub-oscillator which puts out pulse and saw waves, at -1 or -2 octaves. This gives my monitor's bass drivers a good workout.

Before I got the Spectrum I had fun feeding the sub oscillator output of my MakeNoise STO VCO into a wavefolder. Yes, you have to feed a sub-generator simple waveforms, but there is nothing to stop you processing them to make them more complex when they come out the other side.

kwaidan
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1790
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 3:14 pm

Post by kwaidan » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:36 pm

The Livewire AFG also outputs saw wave sub octaves; however, that and the Spectrum are exceptions.

User avatar
Dcramer
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 5426
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:11 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Dcramer » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:13 pm

Early Harvestman Poliviks (Lider?) module actually creates a sub octave that follows the timbre of the input. You can plug a filter swept saw in and you’ll get an octave lower with similar tone, not perfect but useful. One of my least used modules but I’ll never sell it. :evil:

User avatar
MindMachine
weekend warrior
Posts: 6982
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:45 am
Location: Santa Susana Field Lab

Post by MindMachine » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:38 pm

If you can afford to, maybe just bin the module for a while. When you re-rack it you might find it more useful as you go along.

I do this with a few these days, since re-selling them is a losing proposition in may cases. I literally had to recently give away a module. I'm thinking of giving my whole sale lot to a college program.

As others have mentioned, it is best to fully research (and demo if you can) any purchase. Ask the manufacturer as many questions as you need to feel comfortable with a purchase. Makers learn a lot from users asking questions.
FS: Pedals and Euro modules, Delta Labs
viewtopic.php?f=74&t=233636&p=3287718&h ... e#p3287718

User avatar
bagoly
Common Wiggler
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:26 pm
Location: Berlin

Post by bagoly » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:12 pm

If you patch both the original sawtooth and the sub-square to the inputs of a balanced multiplier ("ring modulator") you should be able to get a sub-triangle.

Mixing the sawtooth with the sub-square at the right ratio will give you a sub sawtooth.

Parnelli
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1297
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 6:04 pm
Location: Utah

Post by Parnelli » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:34 pm

I have one such module which was one of my first uninformed purchases before I found this site and others like it, though I have never been able to bring myself to sell it.

I think I should frame it and hang it on the wall for a reminder of the lesson learned... :tu:

User avatar
Alphaman
Common Wiggler
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 7:43 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Alphaman » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:33 pm

the Erica Synths PICO Drums. not long after i owned one, the Memory got bricked. since then, it was only possible to upload 3 kilobyes of samples (about 10 samples with luck). restoring the default Kit was also no longer possible because of this. the stupid browser plug in was also totally bull*** and most of the time it didn't worked to upload samples, because of the stupid programmer^^ then i sent a email to Erica Synths and told them that i'm not amused about this, so i got the programmer as a standalone programm. at least^^ but i don't need it anymore, because i've sold the PICO drums. to hell with this useless Module.

User avatar
tito_tunes
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:33 am
Location: San Franpsycho

Post by tito_tunes » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:52 pm

Sell baby. If you only buy used modules you'll never lose by trying and selling if you don't gel with it.

Rings was like this for me.
danielriera.bandcamp.com

User avatar
nios
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:32 pm
Location: lost in a dream

Post by nios » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:30 pm

This was something I researched a lot in my own interest in subs, and found nothing else like the Lider Suboctave. I guess people either don't care that much about getting a sub of any wave type including complex oscillators and wavetables, or, this module is just very poorly known for whatever reason.

I also have the Blue Lantern sub generator which is the more typical divider that can do several frequencies of squares out of whatever you put into it - if you give this a very odd waveform it will act kind of funny and sputter/cough/cancel out in pulses/pwm-sounding beating etc, which is probably the most exciting thing you can expect from these kinds of modules. Otherwise yeah you just get a square out of most of them, and most oscillators offering a sub are just giving you that same boring square (a few do more/something else like the Rubicon and that ACL multifunction discrete osc).

The Lider works but is a very limited module, I'll describe it a bit because it seems almost nobody else on the entire damn internet has and I will rectify that for future searchers: with the mix knob (the big one) turned all the way left on it, you just have your normal audio, at its middle position is ~50% dry/sub (generally the spot to keep it, or maybe slightly more on sub) and it's pure sub on the right. There's no way to tune the sub freq. It would have been a lot more interesting with CV over dry/sub mix but oh well. The note that it goes "unpredictable" or "goes crazy" under complex audio sounded tantalizing but in reality, it just means "makes junk static noise puncturing your signal", not anything cool-sounding. The knob for the stability control alters the tone of this noise a little tiny, barely-perceptible amount - if your audio is coming out very noisy, the stability control doesn't cut that noise much even if you really want it to, and if you wanted to exaggerate the effect for distortion, well it doesn't really do a lot for that either. Could just be my unit or how I've used it, although I threw a HD mkIII, DPO and Cs-L into it; I gave it a thorough waveform workout exploring the instability. I'd describe the subosc character as a bit duller/fuzzier than the input; it's not a very obvious effect which is nice actually for turning things that would have been too whiny/unusable into otherwise usable for melodies. I don't actually use it for bass much at all so much as giving fuller signal to things like FM, ring, complex oscs etc if I can get them through without picking up crackles/noise, which usually, it does fine. In fact it's so subtle sometimes I've forgotten I was even using it until tracing back a patch and going "ooh yeahh, this didn't sound usable ~until~ I put it through lider to begin with."

User avatar
PietroC
Common Wiggler
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:17 pm
Location: Montreal

Post by PietroC » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:01 pm

Lider needs something to emphasize to work well
Short burst of sounds / Short decay its almost in-audible, especially at high notes ( C4 and UP )but if you had a bit of decay it works amazing
( C3 and Lower ) Ohh Baby it shines

Mine does not glitch Only when reaching the full CW on Main Knob ( The Last Stretch ) It Lowers a bit in volume and contours more the sound But I Enjoy this as well

Lider Gives life to waveshapers when they lose there bottom end / FM Patches / Dull Sine Wave melodies / S/H Patches / More Boom with Slew / ....
S/H>OSC>LIDER Is Beautiful
LFO>OSC>LIDER as well

IE = MN / IME Fan :zombie:

Post Reply

Return to “Modular Synth General Discussion”