Ableton CV tools and ES expander modules

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moodlab
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Ableton CV tools and ES expander modules

Post by moodlab » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:01 pm

The question in this post first appeared as a reply to punkdISCO's sticky "Does ES5 Expander take away 2 ES3 Channels?", which in retrospect wasn't the best place for it.

Greetings!

I read on your website that Silent Way or the Max/MSP external is needed to make ES expansion modules work. Apart from the ES-7, that is, since it doesn't rely on any multiplexing to squeeze a bunch of CV or gate channels out of ADAT streams. Do I have that right? If I have an ES-5, I can only access its outputs or the outputs of any expanders chained off its headers by using Silent Way or the Max/MSP external, right? I'm wondering if, since Ableton CV tools is a Max device, it can talk to expanders hooked up to an ES 5 through that Max/MSP external. If it can, that's awesome. If it can't, is there a possibility for that to happen?

Thanks!

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big job head
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Post by big job head » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:44 am

Hi,
you're right on everything. The es5 external still needs some signal (or trigger) to binary conversion to work properly buut it's pretty simple to do in max.
I tried to integrate an es5 converter into ableton cv tools but the routing portion is too difficult to understand for my knowledge so i gave up :/

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Post by moodlab » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:43 pm

I had been on the verge of plunging into eurorack for some time, and ableton's cv tools announcement pushed me into action. I went ahead and got an ES3 and ES6 and started acquiring modules. Now I can imagine wanting expanded I/O with an ES5 and some other things, but I want to know what my options will be for using that I/O with anything other than Silent Way.

CV tools made the idea of getting into eurorack irresistable to me, and I can't be the only one who felt that way. Now I want more I/O, but I don't want to have to use Silent Way. If you guys make all your hardware addressable by all the "virtual CV/virtual modular" products available, I bet it will drive your hardware sales revenue much more than whatever will be lost by selling fewer Silent Way licenses...

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big job head
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Post by big job head » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:03 pm

You're not forced to buy silent way as the es-5 controller plugin works in licence-free mode.
In ableton i use the midi version to route cv tools to my es5 and it's very easy to setup.
Or you can also use the expert sleepers modules in vcv rack.
Or create an es5 controller with max4live (check this thread : http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewto ... ?p=1321866)
An integrated version within cvtools would be a simpler way to use it but there are options for you if you don't want to use silent way.

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Post by Bbman » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:12 am

big job head wrote: In ableton i use the midi version to route cv tools to my es5 and it's very easy to setup.
Can you please elaborate on “midi version” and “easy to set up”.

Thanks

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Post by moodlab » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:23 am

Thank you for that info, big job head.

Like Bbman I'm also a little unclear what you mean by

"In ableton i use the midi version"

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Post by moodlab » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:09 pm

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I wonder why I don't want to use Silent Way. Certain things about it seem a little cumbersome, but maybe I'll just get over that.

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Post by Bbman » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:52 pm

So from CV tools I run CV LFO into channel 7 of the ES-3 and I get a pattern of triggers into the ES-5 not tied at all to silent ways ES-5 VST. I drop the Silent Ways Midi VST into a midi channel and cannot get it to do much of anything.

What I am missing? And sorry for the silly question. Also I am running a window 64 bit machine if that makes any difference.

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Post by big job head » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:42 am

Bbman wrote:So from CV tools I run CV LFO into channel 7 of the ES-3 and I get a pattern of triggers into the ES-5 not tied at all to silent ways ES-5 VST. I drop the Silent Ways Midi VST into a midi channel and cannot get it to do much of anything.

What I am missing? And sorry for the silly question. Also I am running a window 64 bit machine if that makes any difference.
The es5 is tied to 2 channels of the es3 to if you use these 2 channels on es3 you'll get some irrelevant patterns of triggered on es5.

For the midi setup with cv tools, one midi track is dedicated to the es5 controller (midi version, not the audio one) and others midi tracks send notes to this one.

Image

In es5 controller choose your es5 outputs with "inputs to gates"
In the gates sections you select the base channel and base note for up to 6 es-5.
here i only use one so my channel is 1, my base note is 48 (C2), corresponding to the first output of my es5. Each following note will trigger the next following output.

The audio out of the es5 channel correspond to the first 2 channels of my es3, which are the ones linked to my es5.

Hope it's clear, my english is far from perfect some times ;)

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big job head
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Post by big job head » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:47 am

Don't forget also that you can daisy chain CVTool instruments instead of creating multiple tracks.

Image

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Post by Bbman » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:06 pm

Thanks. I will try this tonight when I get home.

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Post by Bbman » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:51 pm

Thanks. Works great. Just need to get your notes right.

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Post by big job head » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:11 am

:party:

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Post by os » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:32 am

It would of course be awesome if CV Tools natively supported the ES-5, so you could just e.g. use the output drop-downs in the Trigger sequencer to send triggers out to the ES-5.

But that would be something for Ableton to do. If enough people ask, maybe they would add it?

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Post by moodlab » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:35 pm

os wrote:It would of course be awesome if CV Tools natively supported the ES-5, so you could just e.g. use the output drop-downs in the Trigger sequencer to send triggers out to the ES-5.

But that would be something for Ableton to do. If enough people ask, maybe they would add it?
It would be super awesome, and seems like kind of an obvious thing to do. Would it be hard for them to do, or do they have most of what they need with your max external? Or is it a thing where they wouldn't want to natively support a third-party solution. I bet someone would have to do it in a not-officially-endorsed-by-ableton capacity since ableton wouldn't want any additional support responsibility, implied or actual. I can see how that would be tricky, but it would be so cool if it could happen...

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Post by evileye0702 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:52 pm

Since the ES-5 Controller is license free and there are Max 4 Live devices for using the ES-5, just take the time to create your own device using one of those with CV Tools. Then, save it as a template so you don't have to go through the trouble the next time you want to do it.

I have a couple dozen templates I've created with Silent Way. Now it is just drag and drop, tweak a couple outputs and I'm ready to interact with the modular.

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Post by leeboiacid » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:29 am

Hi, I've managed to set up my ES-9 and ES-5 as above using the ES-5 controller (thanks Big Job Head). However, in an ideal world I'd like, say, output 1 on the ES-5 for a note gate, and output 1 on the ES-9 for pitch CV. Has anyone managed this using CV Tools. The only way that I can think of doing it is to have CV Tools instrument on a midi channel with this set to send no gate but send pitch CV to ES-9. Then, receive the midi from this channel on another, convert to desired note (somehow) so that it activates the correct ES-5 channel and then pass this onto the channel where the ES-5 controller is to go out to the ES-5. I think this will work. Just need a plug-in to convert midi notes to a particular note. Any thoughts anyone?

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Post by os » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:34 am

You would want to take the gate from the CV Tools instrument and put it through the ES-5 Controller to convert it to an ES-5 gate.

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Post by leeboiacid » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:12 am

os wrote:You would want to take the gate from the CV Tools instrument and put it through the ES-5 Controller to convert it to an ES-5 gate.
Great! Thanks. I will give that a try.

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Post by Broken Semitone » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:40 pm

leeboiacid

I'm really struggling with this setup ES-9 / ES-5 combo in Ableton. when I send a gate to the ES-5 all the lights come on. If you have any tips I would really appreciate it

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Post by os » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:51 am

Are you using the ES-5 Controller plug-in, as mentioned above?

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Post by leeboiacid » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:31 am

Broken Semitone wrote:leeboiacid

I'm really struggling with this setup ES-9 / ES-5 combo in Ableton. when I send a gate to the ES-5 all the lights come on. If you have any tips I would really appreciate it
OK, so I've got it working fine. As Os says, you need to use the ES-5 Controller. The way I've got things set-up is that I've got 3 melodic channels which output gates to the first three outputs of the ES-5, and the remainder for use as drum triggers.

To do this for, say, one of the melodic channels, I have CV Tools CV Instrument on a midi track. The pitch CV goes to an output on the ES-9, but the gate goes to an audio track within Ableton I created on which an instance of ES-5 Controller sits. This then relays the gate to the output you set on the ES-5 (there are some settings you need to get right but I can't remember them; if you need it I can post again later when I'm at home and can look at the set-up). You can then repeat this for the other melodic channels using a different output on the ES-5.

For the drum triggers, I have a midi track which sends midi to another midi track with another instance of the ES-5 Controller on it. This is configured to receive midi on particular notes (the notes sent and notes the ES-5 Controller is looking on need to match) and then output to specific ES-5 outputs. Again, I can't remember the exact settings but can post some screen shots later if you're still struggling.

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Similar issue as Leeboiacid ES-9 -ES-5 as aggregate device

Post by KingRusk » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:29 pm

Hello

I am having a similar issue as Leeboiacid but my set up is a bit different.

I am currently using my ES-9/ES-5 as an aggregate device. It is combined with a Universal Audio Apollo Twin & a Roland TR-8. It is the last device in the chain. (Apollo Twin - TR 8 - ES-9). The ES-9 is being powered via a Tip Top Mantis Case

When trying to use the ES-5 controller in ableton I am experiencing some odd issues. I have set up my audio outputs to EXT OUT 7/8 (In my case 21/22 because of the aggregate) just as mentioned in the thread. I also set up the ES-5 Controller as mentioned earlier as well.

One of the issues I am experiencing is when doing the channel test for the ES-5. My Results are below

Channel Output set to 0db
Output 1 set to 1 = 1 light on
Output 1 set to 2 = 2 lights onOutput 1 set to 4 = 3 lights onOutput 1 set to 8 = 4 lights onOutput 1 set to 16 = 5 lights onOutput 1 set to 32 = 6 lights onOutput 1 set to 64 = 7 lights on
(multiple lights on)
Channel Output set to -6db
Output 1 set to 1 = 1st light on
Output 1 set to 2 = 2nd light onOutput 1 set to 4 = 3rd light onOutput 1 set to 8 = 4th light onOutput 1 set to 16 = 5th light onOutput 1 set to 32 = 6th light onOutput 1 set to 64 = 7th light on(one light on)
Another issue that is happening is when I send an LFO to the ES-5 channel It is making the whole device run as an LFO triggering each channel sequentially. 
There are a few more things that are happening that I have seen in other threads as well. I believe they are all related to how I have it set up. 
I have read the manual multiple times for the ES-9 / ES-5 and Silent way and I just can't wrap my head around it. I even bout the VCV Rack to no avail. I have also read multiple threads and watched pretty much every video there is on silent way but they are all very much dated at this point in time. 

My question is what is the proper way to set up the ES-5 when using the ES-9 as an aggregate. In Ableton 10? Do I need to set anything up in the ES-9 Configurator. 
Is there anyway to get the channels to trigger individually on the ES-5? If so how?
Is there anything I am missing when setting it up in ableton or as an aggregate device?
My ES-9 is working perfectly and I love it but the ES-5 has caused me about a week of tearing my hair out. 
Please help. 
Thanks

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Post by os » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:25 am

If the ES-5 is in an Aggregate, then the device driving the ES-5 (here, the ES-9) cannot have drift correction enabled.

Either make the ES-9 the clock master, and enable drift correction on the Apollo, or share a clock via SPDIF.

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Thank You!

Post by KingRusk » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:02 am

os wrote:If the ES-5 is in an Aggregate, then the device driving the ES-5 (here, the ES-9) cannot have drift correction enabled.

Either make the ES-9 the clock master, and enable drift correction on the Apollo, or share a clock via SPDIF.
Made the ES-9 the master clock and everything is working perfect thanks.

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