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Headphones 2019 ugh “monitor quality” LOL
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> General Gear Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next [all]
Author Headphones 2019 ugh “monitor quality” LOL
milkshake
Here's a video of Bob Katz experimenting with headphone eq and the target curve.

If clearly shows that he thinks it's all bullshit what the scientists are claiming.
Sorry the scientists are wrong.

It just doesn't work.
Technologear?
Getting back on track...

Headphone amps - definitely worth exploring if you're chasing better sound in your cans. I have a few from Meier-Audio that make all my cans sound 'more'. Especially cans with higher impedance, like my 250ohm dt 770. Interesting that many mentions of these but little clarification of which ohm version.

Unfortunately now I've used amps I no longer enjoy listening to my dt770s without one. No more 'Ill just plug my cans into my phone to listen to that product comparison'. I keep hearing the deficiency in power to the cans, kind of metallic, harsh, hollow, being left with a feeling of 'meh' or 'that sounds off' if turning it up. That's what impedance mismatch sounds like to me. So I like the idea of previous posters having a critical listening studio set, and a knock around casual listening set that's low impedance, that'll sound fun driven from most of your devices.

Specific cans:
- DT 770s 250ohm - I've got 2. That's telling.
-dt 250s 250ohm - very similar to above, that rest more on than around the ear. I'm finding that more comfortable at moment.
- Audio technica m50s (early 2000s model not the rerelease) - I used them so much I replaced the earcups twice. Good for knock around cans that are still a bit accurate, or for monitoring, but not mixing.

The above are all closed as my listening environments had noise.

-hd600s - the only cans that make me groan aloud in aural pleasure. If you're in a quiet room doing focused listening, these are great.

Anyone own the hd600 and more easily available hd650 and care to compare?
dubonaire
milkshake wrote:
dubonaire wrote:


I am a post graduate qualified scientist. Obviously you are not reading what I'm posting. I know what a good scientific paper is. These are not. They are rubbish. They don't contain proper statistical tests. They are conference papers clearly labelled by a company. No reputable scientific paper has a brand on the publication. But more importantly they only talk about people's perceptions of different EQ curves. FFS dude give it a rest.


An argument from authority.
Post what you think is evidence for your claims.

Edit: If you do provide what you think is evidence for your claims, then the wigglers can compare the presented evidence for both sides of the arguments.
I don't give a shit if I'm wrong or not, I care about what's correct or not.


Hey, you said I'm not a scientist and I told you I am, and now you call that an argument from authority.

For maybe the third or fourth time, I'm not making any claims. I'm not arguing any other side. I'm challenging your claims, and the rubbish the Harman employees are posting in the name of science. And then after all that you post a video of Bob Katz saying scientists are wrong? What are you trying to say? This is becoming weird. I think you are a nutcase. Mainly because you posted a bunch of lame papers you clearly didn't even bother to read. In turn I showed you how the references you posted proved you wrong. You then said I wasn't a scientist. I told you I was. You then said that was an argument from authority. What the flying fuck?

Seriously this forum benefits from advice from people who use the gear. It does not benefit from people who think sponsored pseudo research aimed at encouraging consumer purchases of Samsung products subordinates that experience.
strettara
tie me kangaroo down mate
Panason
dubonaire wrote:

However we do need to be alert to the risks of scientism, and thinking faith etc is for stupid people - but we need to be comfortable with the difference. We also need to be aware of the commercial pressures on scientists and journals, especially when so many people are making stupid statements like scientists are sold out careerists. Because people who, for example, devote their entire lives to finding a cure for a type of cancer or other diseases, or devote their lives to measuring climate change, become devalued by society. And that is a sorry state of affairs. If you say these things, you have no idea how hard these people work. And that shits me no end.
.


Well, I do have a science degree from a reputable university, received a long time ago. And thanks for the measured reply, but from what I have seen during my time at university and after, institutionalised science largely stopped being a pursuit of understanding of the natural world for the benefit of humanity at large some time ago... "working hard" means nothing, ethically. Mercenaries in 3rd world countries work pretty hard too.
sutekina bipu-on
I always go back to my portapro's, no matter what. I replaced the cable on them with a nicer one. For over ears, i like the Samson SR850 a lot. It is mediocre out of the box, because the plug is a nightmare. If you can handle soldering a new plug on the SR850's, you end up with a headphone that might as well be up there with $600 AKG's. But i don't like over ears as much as on ear.

For what it's worth, i think dt770 is pretty good but not great and i hate hd600/650. The hd600/hd650 are the sonic equivalent of instagram filters, and i swear by eq'ing headphones for listening until they're where you like them. I love the Sony MDR sound with the ultra forward mids, but closed headphones can't breathe like open back ones. If you compare the MDR's to the Portapro's, the Portapro has a simultaneously laid back and super aggressive sound, whereas the MDR is kind of clinical sounding and light on bass.
strettara
Panason wrote:
dubonaire wrote:

However we do need to be alert to the risks of scientism, and thinking faith etc is for stupid people - but we need to be comfortable with the difference. We also need to be aware of the commercial pressures on scientists and journals, especially when so many people are making stupid statements like scientists are sold out careerists. Because people who, for example, devote their entire lives to finding a cure for a type of cancer or other diseases, or devote their lives to measuring climate change, become devalued by society. And that is a sorry state of affairs. If you say these things, you have no idea how hard these people work. And that shits me no end.
.


Well, I do have a science degree from a reputable university, received a long time ago. And thanks for the measured reply, but from what I have seen during my time at university and after, institutionalised science largely stopped being a pursuit of understanding of the natural world for the benefit of humanity at large some time ago... "working hard" means nothing, ethically. Mercenaries in 3rd world countries work pretty hard too.


if you can’t see the difference between scientists and mercenaries there’s little hope

but why bother

the only good info in this thread is the anecdotal recommendations

for what it’s worth, the sony headphones the op referenced as being shit are the most widely used phones for documentary production as far as i know, everyone swears by them
bitflip
Haha, this turned quite the shit-show w00t

I've got the ATH-M50 and AKG K7XX (Massdrop) and would characterize both as sonically adequate for listening to music or the impromptu late night quiet jam. The K7XX is much much easier to wear for long periods, if ambient noise permits... if it's noisy out, they don't work for detail. And if you're a deaf old geezer the leakage will wake the cat. And in the low end, the M50 is always crisper. On the other hand, the open back AKG allows one to listen to music on the phones while also listening to the tv, or vice versa if so inclined woah Yes folks, it totally makes sense when the game's on nanners
Licudi
Thirty years ago, Beyer DT 100s were the industry standard. They weren't the best, but it didn't matter as - like Auratones and NS10s - every studio had them.

As this thread shows, one of the problems of music production moving into the home has been the loss of so many audio standards. Hard to agree on a decent mix when no one uses the same measurements or equipment.

Given that, I think the question of best headphones in 2019 is entirely subjective.
francoprussian
This thread lead me to discover the blessed Ignore list.
francoprussian
Technologear? wrote:
Getting back on track...

Headphone amps - definitely worth exploring if you're chasing better sound in your cans. I have a few from Meier-Audio that make all my cans sound 'more'. Especially cans with higher impedance, like my 250ohm dt 770. Interesting that many mentions of these but little clarification of which ohm version.

Unfortunately now I've used amps I no longer enjoy listening to my dt770s without one. No more 'Ill just plug my cans into my phone to listen to that product comparison'. I keep hearing the deficiency in power to the cans, kind of metallic, harsh, hollow, being left with a feeling of 'meh' or 'that sounds off' if turning it up. That's what impedance mismatch sounds like to me. So I like the idea of previous posters having a critical listening studio set, and a knock around casual listening set that's low impedance, that'll sound fun driven from most of your devices.


Same critical/consumer duet going on here.

I have the 250ohm version Dt-770, should have mentioned. Bought them mainly because they have the coiled cable vs the 80ohm which have a straight cable, also heard they have less pronounced bass.

And Sony MDR-V500 DJ phones which are ~32ohm if i remember rightly, and do a good job of helping me pretend i'm a pleb listening on an ipod (do people still use those??).

I had the DT-250 but they were too clampy on my noggin borders.

No dedicated headphone amp, never found a case where that was necessary.
Blairio
milkshake wrote:
GrantB wrote:

This doesn't tell us which headphones help create mixes and sounds that translate well, or which ones are the most comfortable and least fatiguing.


No it doesn't.
And fact is that if you can't mix on any headphone, you can't mix.


Mixing is more than balancing instrument and vocal levels. Yes, you can get a reasonable ball-park 'balancing' mix with a half decent set of 'cans (like my trusty HD25 mk2's). Things get trickier with ambience though - reverb and delay present as 'drier' through headphones, and as result can sound overblown when heard afterwards on speakers.

i don't pretend to know why, but I could speculate around a combination of psychoacoustics and the fact that our ears have evolved to capture sonic information from all directions. This latter part is lost when drivers are placed over (or even inside) the ear canal.

There have been some interesting comments on headphone amps. In some cases the headphone amp addresses 'cans that are particularly difficult to drive, in others its the quality of the signal presented to the headphones that shines through. To those folk who don't see the point, I would urge trying one out, at least once.

I have listened to music (flac - lossless compression) played on a 1000 gbp smartphone through my sennheissers with and without a dedicated headphone stage, and the difference is like night and day. It is not a subtle effect. If that seems like a straw man argument, my 'listening for pleasure' system is built around an Audiolab 8000A amp. Its headphone stage is recognised as a pretty decent effort for an integrated amp. However a 250 gbp dedicated headphone amp delivered a far better performance.

Again the improvement was not subtle. I would liken it to listening to music through speakers driven by my previous NAD amp and then through its Audiolab replacement.

For folk who have to work (or listen for pleasure) mostly using headphones, I would urge giving a dedicated headphone amp a try.
Funky40
Muzone wrote:

Yes, I would certainly agree - I've learned more useful things listening to people than looking at graphs lol

Headphones is a VERY special topic! very unique, imho.
I went thru the process of buying "Good" ones last year.........


personally would i say and ask:
is it known if a listener will "experience" a specific Heaphone model the same as another listener, in regards to each owns anatomy ? Can we say that the endresult is the same vs. " listening physics" ?
Could the science answer this question ? ( personally i much doubt it !!!!! )
If yes. how would they measure ?
my claim here is: you can´t measure that.
( not meant to open a discussion on that topic !!!)

if i´m right, would it lead to the following result:
whatever we speak about, at the end are person-related parameters and in that sense subjectivity BIG determing factors on that topic !!!
probably more than in any other Music/Studio related one.


so, how could somebody say, this and this cans are the best ones ?

/ part 1 ( need to write more)
Funky40
i bought last year "The" Good Cans........surfed the net on that matter over weeks.
price range was the 300-400 $ range.

on top of the list were the Sennie 650/ or 600. ( i could never make out which one of those is to prefer)
i could excloude quite rapidly all other contenders that have picked up my interest.
The DT 1990 came new into focus ( been a tiny bit over my budget)

my interest was: get the best sound possible when playing Piano ( pianoteq)
AND: i just wanted to know how good "Good ones" really are .......!!!!


i used AKGs 240DF over years. I damaged two pairs with my modular..........AND: the 240DF has NO Bass. ......NOOOOO Bass !
i picked up a superlux HD681 for 29€ as a quick replacement and have been so happy that i used them for many years ( having one set on each mixer/station)

And beeing happy that the Cans are cheap, ...in case i would ruin them with my modular wink


NOW: i bought the DT1990 last year !
they won after all my reading.
They are rated to be vERY GOOD for mixing and also for music listening fun.
The HD681 have a "good enough" bass, but for fun i´d liked to have a bit more.
The DT 1990 has this !!! perfect. Also is the Bass on the dT1990 very fluid, living, juicy.
Thes Cans have a good reputation on how they transmit transients but it also affects the bass it seems .


BUT: my verdict after all:
my 29€ HD681 ( they cost now 19€) are NOT a league below as one would think, or two leagues, no !
fact is: you can get superb headphones today for 19€ !!! go figure.


is it worth to spend more ?
if you mix profesionally, shure !
anything less is a thing of budget and how high you rate your hobby.


For piano playing do i btw. still use my Superlux HD681 ! go figure.
the DT1990 has a gain bubble in the low mids. That bubble disturbs my piano sound.
Not shure if they made that overpronounciation by plan or not ?
i coud imagine that it helps that one would keep low mids a bit lower in a mix, which i guess is a good thing...??


from all the graphs i have seen, has there NOT been one model that would stand out versus others btw.
And the superlux HD681 look quite good also on the graphs.
A tiny bit too little on the bass .......exactly as the real live experience is vs. "Full Fun" listening.



my finaly verdict:
rate "comfort" higher than anything else !!!
some of the otherwise top cans fail there...........KO


and also:
we need a product, in hardware, similar to the kemper profiling amp !
make the same thing for Headphones !!!
all it takes is a good EQ..............and everybody will be happy, exept the headphone manufacturers.


edited for typos
Funky40
i spent 750$ or so for the cans + preamp.
my main win: i know now that cheap products can absolutely do.


i can sleep now better.
not allways Golden Cans flying around my brain in night lol
hihi
jdkJake
Bath House wrote:
What’s a solid, decent pair for mixing and monitoring synth music on that are reasonably neutral but reproduce bass well enough? Since having a kid I spend 90% of my studio time on headphones. I’ve used Sony MDR-7506 for 20 years and they sound like dick but I know them. I’m ready for an upgrade. I’m looking at the 7510’s since they have better bass reproduction. What else? I hate this topic because it ends up bonkers. Help!!


Personally, if you can afford the entry point, a good set of CIEMs is a good way to go. I have a set of the JHAudio Angie and find them very good for a neutral, yet revealing sound signature once you adjust the bass down to a reasonable level using the supplied attenuators. Since they are custom, the fit and long term comfort is excellent once you get used to having something inside your ear canal.

While I have numerous headphones of various brands and pedigree, once I started wearing glasses full time, they just are no longer working for me due to fit issues. The IEM concept makes that a non-issue.
E Baxter Put
I use the sonar works software which compensates for a headphones eq curve. They sell headphones that have been individually profiled to use with their eq correction software.

My recording studio is calibrated as well, so I’m trying to hear everything as flat as possible.

I just mixed several pieces while on the road with my laptop and headphones and have been very happy with the results.

https://www.sonarworks.com/

Quote:
Muff McMuff
Funky40 wrote:


BUT: my verdict after all:
my 29€ HD681 ( they cost now 19€) are NOT a league below as one would think, or two leagues, no !
fact is: you can get superb headphones today for 19€ !!! go figure.



What HD681's do you have? I gave them a google and there was HD681B, HD681 EVO, HD681F...
dubonaire
strettara wrote:
the only good info in this thread is the anecdotal recommendations


I really hoped people would appreciate me calling out commercially driven pseudoscience, which was all about me defending anecdotal recommendations, but it seems I tarred myself with the same brush I am opposed to. Nonetheless I would do it again. That's my nature.
Panason
I for one am a fan, Dubs, despite our differences meh You never stayed on my Ignore list for very long!

On the topic: I think it's safe to say neutrality is unobtainium and not really necessary anyway. Just using what you can afford and find comfortable should be enough. I think by using the headphones to listen to other people's music , spoken word,films etc., your ears will get used to them and they'll be good enough for monitoring.
strettara
dubonaire wrote:
strettara wrote:
the only good info in this thread is the anecdotal recommendations


I really hoped people would appreciate me calling out commercially driven pseudoscience, which was all about me defending anecdotal recommendations, but it seems I tarred myself with the same brush I am opposed to. Nonetheless I would do it again. That's my nature.


C’est la vie.
dubonaire
Panason wrote:
I for one am a fan, Dubs, despite our differences meh You never stayed on my Ignore list for very long!


Likewise, although I don't have an Ignore list I'm far too curious. hihi
dubonaire
strettara wrote:
dubonaire wrote:
strettara wrote:
the only good info in this thread is the anecdotal recommendations


I really hoped people would appreciate me calling out commercially driven pseudoscience, which was all about me defending anecdotal recommendations, but it seems I tarred myself with the same brush I am opposed to. Nonetheless I would do it again. That's my nature.


C’est la vie.


Oui, ça l'est
calaveras
Fair to say that DT770 and HD650 are leading the pack at least in terms of mentions so far.
A fair number have also mentioned the Sony MDR series. These people are psychopaths. Do not trust them.
Funky40
Muff McMuff wrote:
Funky40 wrote:


BUT: my verdict after all:
my 29€ HD681 ( they cost now 19€) are NOT a league below as one would think, or two leagues, no !
fact is: you can get superb headphones today for 19€ !!! go figure.



What HD681's do you have? I gave them a google and there was HD681B, HD681 EVO, HD681F...


i have the original ones on top of this list @Thomann,
and can´t say anything about the others. hmmm.....
https://www.thomann.de/gb/search_dir.html?ref=intl&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5Ijo iZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6IjIiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6ImVuIn0%3D&sw=hd681&smcs=0cae a6_5592

not saying these would be the perfect Cans for mixing etc.
but for anybody in doubt, or people in risk to kill theirs with a modular etc.,
or just to have a start on Headphones, or just to have some for daily use without any fear etc.........the HD681 is my tip. 19€.
You can bet, when i grab my 450$ DT1990 is "that" allready different......wink

and again: i was ready to spend 400$/chf on Cans for Piano playing,
i ended up spending 700$ since i bought also a tube pre ( in fear of having problems with the 250Ohms thing etc., and since i just wanted to know what it is about )
i still use my HD681 on the Piano........which was my original reason to give me that cadeaux


to me, the superlux HD681 are AKG240 clones btw. !
i came from the (old) AKG240DF, they are built the same, ...same to wear, very comftable imho, just: the band has a tendency to break !!!
i had to repair all my HD681 with carbonfibre, which is not ideal.
they break on the side where the slot is in the band.
Not heard the AKG240 without the DF rating. The 240Df has absolutely NO!! Bass.
The 240DF has a little bit a higher resolution in the upper mids, its a bit more detailed, but not that much that i missed it on the HD681, while the 681s have the Bass the240df misses. But not an overpresent bass.
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