MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index
 FAQ & Terms of UseFAQ & Terms Of Use   Wiggler RadioMW Radio   Muff Wiggler TwitterTwitter   Support the site @ PatreonPatreon 
 SearchSearch   RegisterSign up   Log inLog in 
WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

Ableton Live Advice
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Author Ableton Live Advice
Daveyp
Hi-
So I have been a heavy ProTools user for 10 years or so. But now I find myself making a different kind of music. Whenever I watch tutorials or just peoples videos, it seems they are using Ableton Live. So my question is basically how easy is it to crossover from ProTools to Live? Are they similar in approach at all? Will the learning curve be huge?

Also, is the ‘intro’ version worth getting or is it too limiting? Should I just go for standard? I don’t have a ton of money to throw around. If it makes a difference I’m on a Mac and I already have Komplete Ultimate. But I don’t know anything about maschine.

Thanks!
Dave
darwingrosse
Daveyp wrote:
Hi-
So I have been a heavy ProTools user for 10 years or so. But now I find myself making a different kind of music. Whenever I watch tutorials or just peoples videos, it seems they are using Ableton Live. So my question is basically how easy is it to crossover from ProTools to Live? Are they similar in approach at all? Will the learning curve be huge?

Also, is the ‘intro’ version worth getting or is it too limiting? Should I just go for standard? I don’t have a ton of money to throw around. If it makes a difference I’m on a Mac and I already have Komplete Ultimate. But I don’t know anything about maschine.

Thanks!
Dave


It'll be an interesting journey for you. A ton of your experience will be relevant; including how the mixer works, and how the Arrangement View works. Other stuff, like clip management and preparation, and rack setup/manipulation, will require a bit of work. There are tons of videos - and video courses - that can help you out with those.

But you will probably be up to speed in a minute, because audio is audio, and the Live system explains itself pretty well.

I think Intro is a great place to start, but it is really limited in the included content (effects, instruments, loops). What I often suggest to people is to find a MIDI controller that includes Live Lite (like a Launchpad Mini), and use that to start with. You will get the flavor of Live, and will be able to make a call about whether or not it makes sense to you. If it works, the Suite is in your future...

[ddg]
JAO
You can use the full version free for 30 days.

Try the lite version first and when you want to expand, download the full version and use for 30 days.

If you want to buy a full license after that, head over to kvr forums and buy a second-hand license for half the price.
jimfowler
Sorta apples and oranges if you ask me. I own and use both for different reasons. I’d say if you wanna make music with a daw then live is your environment. If you wanna mix music you made elsewhere pt is the choice.

Live’s UI is bone simple and very intuitive...moreso than pt I’d say...but there are plenty of similarities. For me both are indispensable.
Sinamsis
jimfowler wrote:
Sorta apples and oranges if you ask me. I own and use both for different reasons. I’d say if you wanna make music with a daw then live is your environment. If you wanna mix music you made elsewhere pt is the choice.

Live’s UI is bone simple and very intuitive...moreso than pt I’d say...but there are plenty of similarities. For me both are indispensable.


I think this is probably true. I started in Logic, and switched to Live. My buddy who I make music with was a die hard PT user. I purchased a license for PT but have really never used it as I have no clue where to begin. Mainly I haven't invested the time, as my time is very limited and when I have time I'd rather make music. So, having experience with two DAWs, I couldn't just pick up PT and run. Of course if I invested a few days I bet I could be up and running. My point is that I'm sure there will be a learning curve and getting used to certain conventions. We are using Ableton to write music, and had planned long term to mix in PT. My buddy feels like PT is better for mixing, I'm not sure why. But I really enjoy Ableton. Having dedicated controllers helps quite a bit for me. I use a Push 2, and have a Behringer X touch and expander for fader controllers.

I guess you need to ask yourself what is your goal? My transition from Logic to Ableton was for the incredible ease and flexibility of routing both audio and MIDI in Ableton. I never totally grasped the Environment in Logic. If I do anything electronic, heavily sequenced, etc I use Ableton. For my more rock based projects I use Logic. It's somewhat arbitrary I know haha.
morgulbee
Live is pretty easy to learn if you already know basic audio. The built-in help windows are immensely useful. I switched from Cakewalk Sonar to Live. The 30 day free trial was plenty of time to get going and start making useful stuff, but as with any complex software there will always be more to learn and things that don't work exactly as you'd like them to.

The video tutorials on Ableton's site are very good for getting started.
Rex Coil 7
I bought Live 9 Standard and a Push 1 used, spent about $400 for the whole mess. Changing ownership of the license was a very simple situation which the folks at Ableton were more than happy to help with.

There is so much with Live 9 that it's more than fine for what I do. I had enough cash left to buy an RME sound card that fits directly on the bus of my computer and patches up to the rack mount preamp via ADAT Lightpipe. I was also able to buy that Behringer 8 channel preamp, and a MOTU MIDI rack unit. So the whole works is rack mounted.

Plenty of DAW for my needs. Whole pile was roughly $1,200.00

Happy. cool


.





Daveyp
Thanks for all the advice. I like the idea of getting a controller that includes Lite. I think I’ll probably go that direction.
Panason
Quote:
Whenever I watch tutorials or just peoples videos, it seems they are using Ableton Live


That's not a good reason to use it. This software sucks IMO, compared to Cubase, and is little more than a glorified sample player. The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification. I suppose it's good for remixing dance tunes and as a DJ tool if you can get around that godawful GUI. The built-in help window is its only saving grace as it makes it easy to learn your way around quickly but on the whole it is very tiresome in my experience. The Preferences window is particularly tragic...There''s just too many small (and a few large) annoyances to list here that sooner or later add up.

IMO, Cubase would still be number one in popularity if it was possible to pirate it...

Bitwig is an improvement on Ableton's formula if you're into that.

The Maschine software is really terrible, avoid!
XXXEsq
Cubase is my main DAW. I also have Ableton because many of my friends and several DJs I work with use it and it makes tings easier to have both. It's a relatively easy learning curve if you have prior audio / DAW experience. But it's limited. On the other hand, it does make an interesting live performance tool with the right controller(s).
jimfowler
"...and is little more than a glorified sample player."

I'm not going to get into an argument on the internet about this but it should be noted that this is factually inaccurate.
chapelier fou
Panason wrote:
Quote:
Whenever I watch tutorials or just peoples videos, it seems they are using Ableton Live


That's not a good reason to use it. This software sucks IMO, compared to Cubase, and is little more than a glorified sample player. The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification. I suppose it's good for remixing dance tunes and as a DJ tool if you can get around that godawful GUI. The built-in help window is its only saving grace as it makes it easy to learn your way around quickly but on the whole it is very tiresome in my experience. The Preferences window is particularly tragic...There''s just too many small (and a few large) annoyances to list here that sooner or later add up.

IMO, Cubase would still be number one in popularity if it was possible to pirate it...

Bitwig is an improvement on Ableton's formula if you're into that.

The Maschine software is really terrible, avoid!


I've been using Live for 14 years or so, and never bought a loop, is there something wrong with me ?
I honestly think that Live is a revolutionary tool, super stable and inspiring. With some rigid lines tending to push you towards dance music indeed, but that can be easily avoided. Max for Live is a great tool to get over the limits of Live.
Moon Indigo
Panason wrote:
..little more than a glorified sample player. The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification.


With due respect, my good man, you are either trolling, or rather seriously misinformed.
Panason
Moon Indigo wrote:
Panason wrote:
..little more than a glorified sample player. The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification.


With due respect, my good man, you are either trolling, or rather seriously misinformed.


A troll isn't someone who sees things differently than you. I've used Live for about 10 years and read through the lame, unprofessional documentation (some essential info is missing from the user guide and has to be found in Live's built-in "lessons" because taget user base is ?)

Live's GUI and various other technical issues make it inferior to Cubase and Logic for producing music. Maybe that's a subjective assessment,
but I believe a survey of serious producers and studios will show that Ableton is not the top choice.


But hey, anyone can download demos and see for themselves. Or you can just assume I'm "blaming the tools" - I don't really care, I'm just sharing my experience.
svks
I'm using Live as my only DAW. 90% of the time I work in Session View where user is not limited by time or song structure, which makes it convenient environment for creating instrument parts and improvising with them. Performance from the Session View can be recorded into Arrangement View and can be edited later. About the GUI: a lot of people dislike it but obviously it was made with utilitarian approach in mind (simple fonts, no fancy graphics etc..) which is what I appreciate. And yes, Intro version is limited (by tracks count and other things), it's ok for sequencing but imo the Standard is better if you want more creative freedom and tools.
Moon Indigo
Panason wrote:
Moon Indigo wrote:
Panason wrote:
..little more than a glorified sample player. The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification.


With due respect, my good man, you are either trolling, or rather seriously misinformed.


A troll isn't someone who sees things differently than you. I've used Live for about 10 years and read through the lame, unprofessional documentation (some essential info is missing from the user guide and has to be found in Live's built-in "lessons" because taget user base is ?)

Live's GUI and various other technical issues make it inferior to Cubase and Logic for producing music. Maybe that's a subjective assessment,
but I believe a survey of serious producers and studios will show that Ableton is not the top choice.


But hey, anyone can download demos and see for themselves. Or you can just assume I'm "blaming the tools" - I don't really care, I'm just sharing my experience.


But what you say isn't opinion, it contains demonstrably false statements presented as objective fact.

You said: "The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification."

This is, as a matter of empirical fact, not correct.

That said, let's spend out time making music, and pursuing other spiritually rewarding endeavours, rather than scuffling online. I sincerely wish you deep and lasting happiness smile
Sinamsis
Moon Indigo wrote:
Panason wrote:
Moon Indigo wrote:
Panason wrote:
..little more than a glorified sample player. The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification.


With due respect, my good man, you are either trolling, or rather seriously misinformed.


A troll isn't someone who sees things differently than you. I've used Live for about 10 years and read through the lame, unprofessional documentation (some essential info is missing from the user guide and has to be found in Live's built-in "lessons" because taget user base is ?)

Live's GUI and various other technical issues make it inferior to Cubase and Logic for producing music. Maybe that's a subjective assessment,
but I believe a survey of serious producers and studios will show that Ableton is not the top choice.


But hey, anyone can download demos and see for themselves. Or you can just assume I'm "blaming the tools" - I don't really care, I'm just sharing my experience.


But what you say isn't opinion, it contains demonstrably false statements presented as objective fact.

You said: "The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification."

This is, as a matter of empirical fact, not correct.

That said, let's spend out time making music, and pursuing other spiritually rewarding endeavours, rather than scuffling online. I sincerely wish you deep and lasting happiness smile



Meh, of all the things Panason said, this is the least inflammatory haha. And I don't know that he's completely off on it, it does seem at least to be a common approach here (certainly not how i use it, but still).


I guess for those shitting on Live as a DAW, I would ask what makes a good DAW? I'm not being a smartass. For me, I usually use the DAW to record audio, process audio through basic effect, occasionally to arrange and eventually to mix. I also find the sampling capabilities very nice and straight forward. Ableton does the job for me with little fuss for the most part. I appreciate the very flexible audio and MIDI routing, which is a feature I found challenging in Logic. I also like the simple layout of the included plugins and I find most of them useful. I'm not sure what else I might want to do in a DAW. Max for Live does a ton of shit that I have barely scratched the surface of even after 6 or so years of use. So what am I missing out on?
tehyar
I was thinking of dropping a new thread, but this actually seems like the place.

I'm finally attempting to kick the dongle to the curb! Cubase user since sx 2.0. Live 10 seems to have finally caught up sufficiently to replace it for my needs, and in some places, exceed it (multiclip midi editing is brilliant!!).

It now has some great midi capabilities in the midi effects. Cubase can do almost anything midi, but it's a fuckload more difficult to do.

Plus Max.

Setting up the audio and midi interfaces (tons of i/o on both) was simultaneously simpler and a little more fiddly. But it sure was easier to find!

Hopefully I'm not going to run into any really painful gotchas. I'm really looking forward to the way Live works with midi clips, midi auto capture, midi overdubbing, automation stuff, etc.

I'd bought Push on a larf a few years back with 9, didn't really take it seriously. Going to incrementally add it in and test out the workflow. If this works out I'll be upgrading to Push 2.

Wish me luck! w00t
dude
if you like max then ableton is such the obvious choice
dubonaire
Panason wrote:
Moon Indigo wrote:
Panason wrote:
..little more than a glorified sample player. The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification.


With due respect, my good man, you are either trolling, or rather seriously misinformed.


A troll isn't someone who sees things differently than you. I've used Live for about 10 years and read through the lame, unprofessional documentation (some essential info is missing from the user guide and has to be found in Live's built-in "lessons" because taget user base is ?)

Live's GUI and various other technical issues make it inferior to Cubase and Logic for producing music. Maybe that's a subjective assessment,
but I believe a survey of serious producers and studios will show that Ableton is not the top choice.


But hey, anyone can download demos and see for themselves. Or you can just assume I'm "blaming the tools" - I don't really care, I'm just sharing my experience.


But you're not really helping the OP though, it's more about you just wanting to dump on a product. How some people might use it has nothing to do with its merits, other than it's exceptionally easy to make music with it. If you call it nothing more than a glorified sample player that just suggests to me you don't know its capabilities.

You are very wrong about top producers. I could name many, including Timbaland who has somehow managed to make $90m using Ableton Live. Not that money should matter, but it proves a point. Hans Zimmer uses it too. Many, many successful electronic producers use it and if you look at videos on Telekom Elektronic Beats for example or watch Point Blank master classes etc its ubiquitous.

The Ableton website has an extensive resource of tutorials and artists showing how they use it which I find inspiring.

It has by far the easiest routing interface. A lot has been said about audio quality and 99% of that is down to not understanding how and when to use the warp modes. I've heard people say the rendering has improved on 9 and 10 and I've seen tests that show Live outdoes many in rendering. It's simply not a problem.

With Live Suite you could easily make anything you wanted without ever buying a plug-in. I don't, but you could quite easily get by never exiting the Ableton universe. The new version 10 is excellent.

If you do move to it its especially useful to read up on Ableton's technical advice on plugin delay compensation.
jbuonacc
Panason wrote:
That's not a good reason to use it. This software sucks IMO, compared to Cubase, and is little more than a glorified sample player. The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification. I suppose it's good for remixing dance tunes and as a DJ tool if you can get around that godawful GUI. ...


absolutely ridiculous. you obviously have no idea what Ableton is/does.
Soy Sos
Ableton is absolutely not a glorified sample player. I've never used it
in the was Panason describes. I was a Performer user from back
in 88 and switched over 6 years ago. I use it for all manner of
creative performance and composition applications along with
day to day commercial DAW use.
It may not be everyone's cup of tea but it certainly not rubbish.
jbuonacc
Panason wrote:
... This software sucks IMO, compared to Cubase, and is little more than a glorified sample player. The typical "workflow" is : buy sample loops, drop them in session view where they are automatically warped to match your BPM, and play around with the clips for instant gratification. I suppose it's good for remixing dance tunes and as a DJ tool if you can get around that godawful GUI. The built-in help window is its only saving grace as it makes it easy to learn your way around quickly but on the whole it is very tiresome in my experience. The Preferences window is particularly tragic...There''s just too many small (and a few large) annoyances to list here that sooner or later add up.

IMO, Cubase would still be number one in popularity if it was possible to pirate it...

Bitwig is an improvement on Ableton's formula if you're into that.

The Maschine software is really terrible, avoid!


(reading this again... man, wtf.)

i am soooooo tired of seeing this sort of thing all over the place (electronic instrument forums are where i've seen it the most, not even guitar/amp forums are anywhere near as bad). people who obviously have NO IDEA (no f'ing clue in most cases) of what they're talking shit about but feel like they need to "warn" everyone about it. it's reached an absolutely sickening level over the past 5-10 years. i simply can't believe it. this guy is serious, he really thinks that Ableton is all about buying loops (who actually even does that?) and that's it. unreal.

it's like talking to someone who thinks the world is flat and thinking "dude, you've got to be kidding... have you seen a globe? how about pictures of Earth from outer space?"
Soy Sos
Agreed jbuonacc........
Though I can confirm that there are a lot of people working with pre-made loops in many modern DAWs unfortunately. Folks rely on the application's sound library choosing loops by key and genre. Services like Splice provide searchable indexes with everything from funk bass, trap drums to tabla patterns. This is not happening with just Ableton but literally every software platform from Garage Band to Pro Tools. Do I create this way? No, literally never.
It's not the fault of the software, more of a cultural trend. I'm not focusing on complaining about it though.
dubonaire
Panason just likes to exaggerate and complain. Maybe it’s attention seeking behavior. Occasionally there is truth in what he says but he often gets carried away with himself. But in this case he clearly doesn’t know much about the power of Ableton Live.
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Software Goto page 1, 2  Next [all]
Page 1 of 2
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group