Anything like the Buchla 258v in Eurorack?

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Gringo Starr
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Anything like the Buchla 258v in Eurorack?

Post by Gringo Starr » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:01 am

It doesn’t look like Verbo’s ever made this oscillator for eurorack. Or did he?

Is there anything comparable?
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mdoudoroff
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Post by mdoudoroff » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:16 am

2x Dannysound Cali?

[video][/video]

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mritenburg
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Post by mritenburg » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:03 am

The Sputnik single osc is a direct clone of the Buchla 258. It is the same basic circuit as the Roman 258r, which is a 1:1 clone of the original Buchla 258c. The Verbos 258v is also based on the Buchla 258c with minor updates to compensate for rare parts. The Sputnik osc is 1/2 of a 258, so you need two to make a full 258. As an owner of a pair Sputnik single osc’s and Buchla 258’s, I can tell you that they are nearly identical. The Sputnik has an additional sub osc output which is handy for all kinds of tricks.

The best part is that you can usually find the Sputnik single osc for a good price on reverb.

There’s also the J3rk euro 258j clone DIY kits if you are a builder.

I’d love it if Verbos would do a 258 type module for Euro.
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Post by Gringo Starr » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:12 am

Thanks guys. I’ll take a look at those.

It’s surprising to me that Verbos hasn’t made that one in Eurorack format. That’s a phenomenal sounding oscillator.
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Post by CF3 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:51 pm

The best sounding “258” clone I’ve heard/used is the Plan B/SubCon M15. The linear FM sounds amazing. Not made anymore, but they come up from time to time. I’ve also tried all the other euro 258 clones. M15 all the way for me.

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Post by radiokoala » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:01 am

Sputnik Dual Waveform Generator is based on Verbos 258v and was later reused for Roman's single Oscillator with few bells & whistles added.

SPUTNIK DWG - Dual buchla-inspired oscillator
258c TRI Output mod: [AUDIO!] (my thread)
Dual Waveform Generator Video & Demo Sounds


Here is a rather extensive demo of the one I did:

[video][/video]

It also makes all sorts of sci-fi bleeps (mostly everything that has lfo on pitch) in my Erica Synths Garage session:

You'll have close to zero luck buying this particular module (please don't envy :razz:) but on the brighter news side, shan't be as hard to come across J3RK's 258J original or DIY builds, essentially =258c =258v.

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/sputnik-m ... utnik-258c
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/j3rk-258j-dual-oscillator

For a bonus, as you get this and crave more Buchla, this one could do well as pretty spot-on 259 adaptation (and they have wavefolder and other modules):

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/feedback-two59-vco

http://soundcloud.com/radiokoala/258c-tri-output-mod
The opening track on my album "Analog Explorations" is using the same patch as explained in a tri-mod thread (link above), not much to it really, just classic tri+saw/sqr oscillator output mixing, but – forget this not – it is uncanonical use of Buchla 258 since it doesn't have multiple outs straight outta the assembly line and chances are, you have not heard this particular oscillator in this type of configuration. :smoke:

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Post by Ossicle » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:01 am

mritenburg wrote:The Sputnik single osc is a direct clone of the Buchla 258. It is the same basic circuit as the Roman 258r, which is a 1:1 clone of the original Buchla 258c. The Verbos 258v is also based on the Buchla 258c with minor updates to compensate for rare parts. The Sputnik osc is 1/2 of a 258, so you need two to make a full 258. As an owner of a pair Sputnik single osc’s and Buchla 258’s, I can tell you that they are nearly identical. The Sputnik has an additional sub osc output which is handy for all kinds of tricks.

The best part is that you can usually find the Sputnik single osc for a good price on reverb.

There’s also the J3rk euro 258j clone DIY kits if you are a builder.

I’d love it if Verbos would do a 258 type module for Euro.
What you wrote is a bit surprising to me, as I find my Sputnik single osc not even coming close to the power and 'fatness' I've heard on demos of the 258v, e.g. here:

[video][/video]

In my ears the Cali osc sounds much closer to the 258v but even that doesn't seem to burst the sound with such high 'pressure' (if you know what I mean - can't find another way to describe it).

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Post by mritenburg » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:45 am

Ossicle wrote:What you wrote is a bit surprising to me, as I find my Sputnik single osc not even coming close to the power and 'fatness' I've heard on demos of the 258v, e.g. here:

In my ears the Cali osc sounds much closer to the 258v but even that doesn't seem to burst the sound with such high 'pressure' (if you know what I mean - can't find another way to describe it).
The Sputnik Single OSC, Buchla 258c, Roman 258r, Studio H DPO, and Verbos 258v all have the exact same imperfect waveforms, exact same wave shaper, and exact same FM response.

From the videos, it looks as if the Cali does not have the same imperfect wave shapes as 258 clones do.

Definitely, from a subjective perspective, go with what your ears like, but if you want a true clone of a 258 in euro, the Sputnik is objectively the best option.

I'll be happy to produce a comparison demo of Buchla 258's and Sputnik single osc. I can guarantee that no one will be able to tell the difference.

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Post by Ossicle » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:39 am

mritenburg wrote:
Ossicle wrote:What you wrote is a bit surprising to me, as I find my Sputnik single osc not even coming close to the power and 'fatness' I've heard on demos of the 258v, e.g. here:

In my ears the Cali osc sounds much closer to the 258v but even that doesn't seem to burst the sound with such high 'pressure' (if you know what I mean - can't find another way to describe it).
The Sputnik Single OSC, Buchla 258c, Roman 258r, Studio H DPO, and Verbos 258v all have the exact same imperfect waveforms, exact same wave shaper, and exact same FM response.

From the videos, it looks as if the Cali does not have the same imperfect wave shapes as 258 clones do.

Definitely, from a subjective perspective, go with what your ears like, but if you want a true clone of a 258 in euro, the Sputnik is objectively the best option.

I'll be happy to produce a comparison demo of Buchla 258's and Sputnik single osc. I can guarantee that no one will be able to tell the difference.
I'd very much like to hear such comparison and would greatly appreciate it. Of course, I want to love my Sputnik osc but so far I'm under the impression I'm missing something for not having a 4U version, especially the 258v. Would be great to be proven wrong here. What seems almost certain however is that my Sputnik cannot sound like the 258v in the yt video I posted

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Post by mritenburg » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:39 am

Ossicle wrote:Of course, I want to love my Sputnik osc but so far I'm under the impression I'm missing something for not having a 4U version, especially the 258v. Would be great to be proven wrong here. What seems almost certain however is that my Sputnik cannot sound like the 258v in the yt video I posted
You need 2x Sputnik single oscillators to equal one 4U 258 (regardless if it is a true Buchla module, Roman Clone, Peak Clone, J3rk Clone, Verbos Clone, Studio H, etc.)

Without 2 modules, you cannot do any of the great FM inter-modulation that makes the 258 so spectacular.

UPDATE

I didn't have a chance to record a fitting demo, but I did take some quick screen shots of a comparison of the waveforms from a Sputnik Single Osc and a 4U 258. Apologies for the totally inadequate scope. The variations in the images has more to do with the lame software scope and less to do with the modules.

Top trace is Sputnik and bottom trace is 4U: sine, square, and saw

Image
Image
Image

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Post by Ossicle » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:29 am

mritenburg wrote:
Ossicle wrote:Of course, I want to love my Sputnik osc but so far I'm under the impression I'm missing something for not having a 4U version, especially the 258v. Would be great to be proven wrong here. What seems almost certain however is that my Sputnik cannot sound like the 258v in the yt video I posted
You need 2x Sputnik single oscillators to equal one 4U 258 (regardless if it is a true Buchla module, Roman Clone, Peak Clone, J3rk Clone, Verbos Clone, Studio H, etc.)

Without 2 modules, you cannot do any of the great FM inter-modulation that makes the 258 so spectacular.

UPDATE

...

I didn't have a chance to record a fitting demo, but I did take some quick screen shots of a comparison of the waveforms from a Sputnik Single Osc and a 4U 258. Apologies for the totally inadequate scope. The variations in the images has more to do with the lame software scope and less to do with the modules.

Top trace is Sputnik and bottom trace is 4U: sine, square, and saw




It's obvious that you need two of the Sputniks to match the 258, but my point is that even in the first couple of minutes in the video where only one osc of the 258v is used, the sound is clearly thicker and better than my Sputnik's.

Thanks for the scopes! They will surely be of interest here but unfortunately I can never tell how the slight differences in the waveforms are supposed to sound like.

Sound clips would be fantastic. I'm still open to the possibility that I'm just imagining the differences, perhaps because the 4U module is physically larger and looks better.

Which 258 version do you have btw (sorry if I missed this).
Last edited by Ossicle on Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Ossicle » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:30 am

(double)

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Post by mritenburg » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:20 am

Ossicle wrote:my point is that even in the first couple of minutes in the video where only one osc of the 258v is used, the sound is clearly thicker and better than my Sputnik's..
I’ve owned 258v, 258b, and currently own Studio H DPO’s which are 258 clones for the Buchla 200e system (they support patch saving) but are 258’s in all other respects.

The Sputnik and all 4U 258 waveforms are identical regardless if it is the Verbos, Roman, or other. They are all based on the same schematics and have the same triangle core and same wave shapers. If you are monitoring at the same amplitude through the same signal path, they are going to sound identical.

What happens sometimes is that the 10vpp waveform of the euro is not coupled correctly to the audio path through a mixer, audio interface, etc. 4U modules have a 1vpp waveform that is essentially line level and it couples to mixers and audio interfaces path more easily.

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Post by B0bcat » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:17 pm

CF3 wrote:The best sounding “258” clone I’ve heard/used is the Plan B/SubCon M15. The linear FM sounds amazing. Not made anymore, but they come up from time to time. I’ve also tried all the other euro 258 clones. M15 all the way for me.
Is the M15 really linear FM? I thought the OG 258 was exponential
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Post by mritenburg » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:25 pm

B0bcat wrote:
CF3 wrote:The best sounding “258” clone I’ve heard/used is the Plan B/SubCon M15. The linear FM sounds amazing. Not made anymore, but they come up from time to time. I’ve also tried all the other euro 258 clones. M15 all the way for me.
Is the M15 really linear FM? I thought the OG 258 was exponential
The original Buchla 258b was exponential. The original 258c was linear. Most of the clones are based on the 258c (the Peake 258b being the exception). This might be due to the wide availability of the original schematics of the 258c.

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Post by B0bcat » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:46 pm

mritenburg wrote:
B0bcat wrote:
CF3 wrote:The best sounding “258” clone I’ve heard/used is the Plan B/SubCon M15. The linear FM sounds amazing. Not made anymore, but they come up from time to time. I’ve also tried all the other euro 258 clones. M15 all the way for me.
Is the M15 really linear FM? I thought the OG 258 was exponential
The original Buchla 258b was exponential. The original 258c was linear. Most of the clones are based on the 258c (the Peake 258b being the exception). This might be due to the wide availability of the original schematics of the 258c.
Thanks! Interesting info
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Plan B / SubCon Model 15 VCO, Plan B Model 12 VCF,
ADDAC 805v1,
Macro Machines Storage Strip,
Intellijel Dixie 1, Spock, FlipFlop,
Bastl SoftPop,
Skychord Cloudbuster

FS/FT(US): Bard Vacuform vacuum tube multi mode filter, factory-built, $250 shipped

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Post by natureclubcassettes » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:47 pm

really interesting thread. thanks all for the knowledge and convivial approach to differing opinions.

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Post by mritenburg » Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:12 pm

natureclubcassettes wrote:really interesting thread. thanks all for the knowledge and convivial approach to differing opinions.
Definitely. If the question is: which euro 258 clone is closest to the 258v, there is clear objective evidence to answer that question. The Sputnik is definitely the closest. If the question is: which 258-type euro oscillator sounds the best, the answers to that question will be entirely entirely subjective. Overall, the Dannysound osc or Plan B M15 may actually sound better to some than the Sputnik Osc, but they are not closer to replicating the 258v, which means replicating the 258c.

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Post by mritenburg » Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:33 pm

I created a little comparison recording. One channel contains 2x Sputnik Single Oscillators. One Osc is FM modulating the other and a Verbos Random Samping is modulating both of the Sputnik Oscillators. In the other channel is 4U 258c clone (Studio H DPO). One 1/2 is FM modulating the other 1/2 and a Buchla 266e is modulating both halves of the 258.

The are some variations because the patches are not identical, but the point is that the oscillators are nearly identical and the FM response (which is arguably the best aspect of 258's) is nearly identical.

http://soundcloud.com/labelleaurore/258-comparison

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Post by Ossicle » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:05 am

(double - again sorry!)
Last edited by Ossicle on Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Ossicle » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:08 am

mritenburg wrote:I created a little comparison recording. One channel contains 2x Sputnik Single Oscillators. One Osc is FM modulating the other and a Verbos Random Samping is modulating both of the Sputnik Oscillators. In the other channel is 4U 258c clone (Studio H DPO). One 1/2 is FM modulating the other 1/2 and a Buchla 266e is modulating both halves of the 258.

The are some variations because the patches are not identical, but the point is that the oscillators are nearly identical and the FM response (which is arguably the best aspect of 258's) is nearly identical.

http://soundcloud.com/labelleaurore/258-comparison
In my ears (= on the basis of the aspects of the sound that my ears tend to focus on) the right channel is clearly better sounding than the left one. The left is sounds harder and slightly thinner, while the right one is more liquidy, warmer and closer to the sound in the video of 258v I posted.

I'm almost certain that L = Sputnik, R = 4U.

There is a lot of similarity of course, but I think these differences could be significant in practice (for me).

Anyway, thank you for this very helpful comparison, much appreciated!

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Post by AlanP » Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:34 am

Built a 258 clone, and had to trial several FETs in the sine shapers.

I suspect that that is a lot of what makes the variation between various flavours of 258.

Very easy to make this oscillator sound good.

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Post by mritenburg » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:23 am

Ossicle wrote:
mritenburg wrote:I created a little comparison recording. One channel contains 2x Sputnik Single Oscillators. One Osc is FM modulating the other and a Verbos Random Samping is modulating both of the Sputnik Oscillators. In the other channel is 4U 258c clone (Studio H DPO). One 1/2 is FM modulating the other 1/2 and a Buchla 266e is modulating both halves of the 258.

The are some variations because the patches are not identical, but the point is that the oscillators are nearly identical and the FM response (which is arguably the best aspect of 258's) is nearly identical.

http://soundcloud.com/labelleaurore/258-comparison
In my ears (= on the basis of the aspects of the sound that my ears tend to focus on) the right channel is clearly better sounding than the left one. The left is sounds harder and slightly thinner, while the right one is more liquidy, warmer and closer to the sound in the video of 258v I posted.

I'm almost certain that L = Sputnik, R = 4U.

There is a lot of similarity of course, but I think these differences could be significant in practice (for me).

Anyway, thank you for this very helpful comparison, much appreciated!
As it turns out, it’s actually the opposite. I’m not trying to trick anyone, but the way my console, subgroups, audio interface, and DAW are setup, when I create a new mono recording track in my DAW it defaults to the left input which defaults to my Buchla output subgroup in my mixer.

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Post by hinterlands303 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:59 am

Not a clone, but the Make Noise STO seems to be inspired by the 258.

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Post by CliffordMilk » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:22 am

The 258J is a lovely clone. Some component measuring and matching is needed to get a pure sine but well worth it.

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