What am i doing wrong when syncing with PNW?

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insoul8
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What am i doing wrong when syncing with PNW?

Post by insoul8 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:31 am

I am driving a Euclidean Circles v2, Doepfer A-160-2, Zularic, and Marbles among other modules with my PNW (x4 output) and am having trouble getting them all to line up perfectly. I am sending them a reset on start which seems to work as far as starting them all at the same time from the 1 but if i test them each against an output of PNW using drum hits, they are all the slightest bit off compared to PNW and i get kind of a flam effect. I've also tried sending them a reset gate on /8 or /16 and it doesn't seem to be the answer either. What am I doing wrong here?

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Post by insoul8 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:36 am

It just occurred to me- could it be that I am multing the reset to send around and that is delaying it by like a half millisecond?

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Post by brandonlogic » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:46 am

insoul8 wrote:It just occurred to me- could it be that I am multing the reset to send around and that is delaying it by like a half millisecond?
multing a clock is not adding delay... just lowering your voltage slightly so it has nothing to do with that.

there might be a tiny bit of lag in the digital modules your clocking. try clocking one at a time. play with the offset feature in pams workout to offset the clock to offset whatever delay your hearing. you might not be able to mult the same clock and reset to all of them just because the require different offsets to make up for any lag in that particular module.

although i have PNW and Marbles and never had this issue. no experience with the other modules you mentioned.

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Post by insoul8 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:58 am

Thanks. Glad to hear it's not the mult because that would lead to me having to use up all of Pam's outs just for clocking. I actually did play with the delays and have been testing them individually but since the delay is a % of clock, it gets really screwy when you change the clock. Not to mention I could never get it just right anyway when using the delays. I'm going to try what was suggested by 'Learning Modular' when i get home and run the clock through a logical or to the Euclidean Circles and see if it at least helps with that one. Just found the video on youtube.

[video][/video]

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:14 am

Likely latency from the other digital modules.

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Post by EATyourGUITAR » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:15 am

If you increase capacitance and load, you in theory increase rise time in the ns not ms.
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Post by brandonlogic » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:18 am

EATyourGUITAR wrote:If you increase capacitance and load, you in theory increase rise time in the ns not ms.
in other words, for our purposes, its not a relevant factor.

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Post by void23 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:24 am

There are no standards for how various modules accept resets. Some like the reset on first pulse while some expect a reset after run has stopped. Sounds like you're using reset on first pulse, which some modules don't agree with causing a bit of a flam. You'll just need to experiment with what sort of signal each of your clock based modules are expecting. I'll usually have two outputs dedicated to sending each reset type then mult'ing them out. Mult's, either passive or buffered shouldn't cause issues with gates and triggers.

Additionally, make sure you're using the latest PNW firmware. There were a number of versions that had some pretty nasty issue with resets and syncing to external sources.

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Post by insoul8 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:30 am

Thanks. Yea, i'll keep playing with it all. I am fairly certain I'm on the latest firmware for PNW unless one came out in the last couple months. How do you do a reset on stop from PNW?

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Post by void23 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:03 pm

insoul8 wrote:Thanks. Yea, i'll keep playing with it all. I am fairly certain I'm on the latest firmware for PNW unless one came out in the last couple months. How do you do a reset on stop from PNW?
PNW supports two types of resets ... Menu into where you set the pulse length for a channel and scroll all the way past /512. You'll then see the two reset pulse types. I'd find you an image, but not having much luck with my Google-fu this morning.

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Post by insoul8 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:09 pm

void23 wrote:
insoul8 wrote:Thanks. Yea, i'll keep playing with it all. I am fairly certain I'm on the latest firmware for PNW unless one came out in the last couple months. How do you do a reset on stop from PNW?
PNW supports two types of resets ... Menu into where you set the pulse length for a channel and scroll all the way past /512. You'll then see the two reset pulse types. I'd find you an image, but not having much luck with my Google-fu this morning.
Yea, ok, if it's in there i can figure it out. Just from memory i had thought there was only a gate high when running and the reset on first pulse. If there is another option there, I'll for sure give it a go. Thanks.

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Post by depaffect » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:49 pm

Euclidean Circles (well I can only speak for v1) needs a reset on stop, not on play

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Re: What am i doing wrong when syncing with PNW?

Post by Dark Barn » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:37 pm

insoul8 wrote:I am driving a Euclidean Circles v2, Doepfer A-160-2, Zularic, and Marbles among other modules with my PNW (x4 output) and am having trouble getting them all to line up perfectly. I am sending them a reset on start which seems to work as far as starting them all at the same time from the 1 but if i test them each against an output of PNW using drum hits, they are all the slightest bit off compared to PNW and i get kind of a flam effect. I've also tried sending them a reset gate on /8 or /16 and it doesn't seem to be the answer either. What am I doing wrong here?
To me it seems like you may be barking up the wrong tree if you’re expecting a reset to realign phasing issues. Resets are used to return sequenced modules to step one and will not necessarily fix an issue where the sync is off by a little bit. I think maybe you need to consider whether a module that you are triggering with one of these clocked modules might have some latency causing you to hear some flams. If the flams are the only indicator for you that something isn’t in sync then maybe the issue could be some latency between your different sound source modules you are triggering, rather than from the triggers themselves.
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Post by mosorensen » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:45 am

I haven't had these sync/latency issues with my PWN and the modules I sync it with. But I would try the "phase" adjustment in PNW to fine tune the timing of the triggers you send to the other modules. If the problem is latency, sending the trigger slightly early may fix it.

Fine tuning the timing of the triggers may also change the "feel" of the rhythm, such as sending the bass drum slightly late for a laid-back groove.

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Post by insoul8 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:26 pm

Oddly enough, the issue seems to be the PEXP-1. I had the x4 from it multed and feeding the Euclidean Circles, A-160-2, and Marbles- all with the same issue. As soon as I switched the clock to a x4 directly on Pam’s, all was working fine. What gives? In testing the x4 on Pam’s vs the Pexp, they sound perfectly in time when used as triggers but the Pexp must start a tiny bit later than the onboard outputs. Lame.

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Post by Bignorthumbrian » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:30 am

insoul8 wrote:Oddly enough, the issue seems to be the PEXP-1. I had the x4 from it multed and feeding the Euclidean Circles, A-160-2, and Marbles- all with the same issue. As soon as I switched the clock to a x4 directly on Pam’s, all was working fine. What gives? In testing the x4 on Pam’s vs the Pexp, they sound perfectly in time when used as triggers but the Pexp must start a tiny bit later than the onboard outputs. Lame.
I’m sure there was a firmware update to fix that, why not contact them, they’re very helpful.
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Post by Shledge » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:21 am

Haven't noticed a difference in latency between PNW and PEXP-1. They're generated in the exact same way as the other gates.

In fact a lot of people seem to get confused with this module, which is odd.

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Post by mosorensen » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:05 am

@insoul8: your problems sound weird, and they don't seem to reflect my own and other peoples experiences with these modules. Just for some out of the box thinking, are you sure the latency problem isn't with your drums (and not with the triggers)? Are you using sampled drums, where some of the samples may have slight latencies? Have you tried using a scope to confirm whether the triggers actually arrive at slightly different times? Have you tried mixing up the drums that you trigger (or tried to trigger other things instead) to see if that changes anything?

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Post by Shledge » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:11 am

I know that some sample/digital modules can have some pretty alarming latency. Earlier versions of the BIA had a 5ms latency, for example - fine in most cases, but there is a slight audible "flam" if you listen closely. Doesn't bother me, but might bother some. Putting them through other digital modules (like effects) could potentially increase that latency.

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Post by insoul8 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:46 am

mosorensen wrote:@insoul8: your problems sound weird, and they don't seem to reflect my own and other peoples experiences with these modules. Just for some out of the box thinking, are you sure the latency problem isn't with your drums (and not with the triggers)? Are you using sampled drums, where some of the samples may have slight latencies? Have you tried using a scope to confirm whether the triggers actually arrive at slightly different times? Have you tried mixing up the drums that you trigger (or tried to trigger other things instead) to see if that changes anything?
Yes, I have tried multiple sound sources thinking it may be that instead of the PNW. Similar results each time no matter the source. I am not using anything sampled. Only analog sound sources to test though I initially noticed the issue when using my Squid Salmple. I of course thought there could be latency in the samples or the module so I switched to analog modules for testing.

As far as firmware, I am on the latest for PNW unless there are some unreleased betas that fix certain specific issues. I’ll check in with ALM after a bit more testing when I have time.

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Post by Shledge » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:27 am

Have you checked the phase of each output? They all need to be 0%. I don't understand how there is latency from it, since it's completely different to the experience I have with mine.

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Post by insoul8 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:47 am

Yea, phase is normal on the PNW outputs. I'm going to look at it on my scope later and see if i can visualize any differences. Thanks for the help.

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Post by Shledge » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:52 pm

I just checked, there is no latency between the PNW and PEXP-1 - oscilloscope shows them nearly perfectly aligned, at least 0.1ms or less, completely undetectable. Sounds more like your digital modules are the issue. In fact, the only thing I noticed was that the PEXP-1 was slightly below 5v, but it shouldn't cause issues.

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Post by insoul8 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:55 am

Shledge wrote:I just checked, there is no latency between the PNW and PEXP-1 - oscilloscope shows them nearly perfectly aligned, at least 0.1ms or less, completely undetectable. Sounds more like your digital modules are the issue. In fact, the only thing I noticed was that the PEXP-1 was slightly below 5v, but it shouldn't cause issues.
Yea, I checked it as well in the scope and have the same results as you. PEXP-1 was slightly below 5v and had maybe a 0.2ms delay. I don't think either should be an issue. And, clocking the Euclidean Circles and Doepfer A-160-2 from the PEXP-1 this time, everything now seemed in time. I really don't know what the hell is going on or if I am actually losing my mind here. I'm going to see how it all goes and take special note if I continue having intermittent issues while keeping my settings the same.

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