Maths for envelopes conundrum!

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deke
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Maths for envelopes conundrum!

Post by deke » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:40 pm

I have a serous problem. When I use my Maths, channel 1 and or 4, as an envelope, it sounds too darn good. I have a A-140 and a Pons Asinorum, but they just don't measure up to Maths. Maths makes my modules (Black Wavetable VCO, Plaits, Studio Electronics Oscillation) sound so amazingly good. Fast and snappy, slow and everything in between is just sooooooo much better. The other two kind of pale in comparison. As a result, I end up not using Maths for all the other things it can do, even as a nice simple source of modulation.

Am I missing something with my ADSR/AD modules? Should I get a used Intelijell Quadra for a similar quality and versatility? Another Maths (half joking) or a couple of Contours? Something else?

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Post by pieter » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:59 pm

I get what you're saying about Maths' envelopes. I have a Quadra and Stages, too, and I'd say Stages comes closest to Maths. I make Quadra snappier using the response curve on the intellijel VCAs, but those are mini pots. Maths is just so damn playable!

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Post by LunaticSound » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:01 pm

Since the Contour on O Coast sounds just as good as Maths to me, I just ordered the Contours Module as well.

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Post by PietroC » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:13 pm

I Love my Maths
But A Double Andore MK2 is definitely my favorite DUAL EG / VCA Combo
Expensive but armed to the teeth
Each are different and i would never let go of either

I really enjoy the Optomix but Vactrols / LPG has a specific sound
DAMK2 brings me to where i need to be sound wise and a lot more versatile for my personal sonic ambitions

Got me thinking Never tried the Maths EG Out to DAMK2 CV/IN though
Thanks :yay: For the inspiration

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Post by mritenburg » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:36 pm

Maths is awesome, but you should get to know your A-140. Talk about snappy envelopes! The 3 different timing settings allow for super-wide operation. Its not sexy or esoteric like a lot of the flashy newer euro brands, but what it does, it does extremely well. It’s actually one of my favorite euro envelopes.

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deke
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Post by deke » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:03 pm

mritenburg wrote:Maths is awesome, but you should get to know your A-140. Talk about snappy envelopes! The 3 different timing settings allow for super-wide operation. Its not sexy or esoteric like a lot of the flashy newer euro brands, but what it does, it does extremely well. It’s actually one of my favorite euro envelopes.
I don't want to give up on it. I swear I just tried every setting imaginable with H, M and L, and I seem to be finding things I was not finding before. I have been wanking on it for 30 minutes and I can't stop. Thanks for pushing me!

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deke
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Post by deke » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:27 pm

PietroC wrote:I Love my Maths
But A Double Andore MK2 is definitely my favorite DUAL EG / VCA Combo
Expensive but armed to the teeth
Each are different and i would never let go of either

I really enjoy the Optomix but Vactrols / LPG has a specific sound
DAMK2 brings me to where i need to be sound wise and a lot more versatile for my personal sonic ambitions

Got me thinking Never tried the Maths EG Out to DAMK2 CV/IN though
Thanks :yay: For the inspiration

Cheers Happy Hunting
Dude, if I inspired anything, it was via sheer ignorance! :-)

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Post by luketeaford » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:28 pm

I have the opposite opinion which is why bother with anything else? I have 4 Maths. :despair:

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mritenburg
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Post by mritenburg » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:40 pm

deke wrote:
mritenburg wrote:Maths is awesome, but you should get to know your A-140. Talk about snappy envelopes! The 3 different timing settings allow for super-wide operation. Its not sexy or esoteric like a lot of the flashy newer euro brands, but what it does, it does extremely well. It’s actually one of my favorite euro envelopes.
I don't want to give up on it. I swear I just tried every setting imaginable with H, M and L, and I seem to be finding things I was not finding before. I have been wanking on it for 30 minutes and I can't stop. Thanks for pushing me!
Set it to H, turn all the knobs to 0. Adjust D to get the snappy attack/delay you want. The A-140 can be so quick in H mode that you can get clicks. If you get clicks and want to get rid of them, just turn A up a little until the clicks go away.

I never us S unless I am triggering notes in real-time with a keyboard and want the length of the envelope to track the length of a key press.

You can mimic the vactrol ring of a low pass gate by setting a snappy envelope and adding some R to simulate the vactrol response. Before there were low pass gates in euro I would use a low pass filter with the resonance turned all the way down and an A-140 to emulate the low pass gate sound.

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Post by resynthesize » Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:17 pm

i have tried many different envelopes, and maths is still my favorite. nothing else has quite the same shape. check out the erogenous tones radar, that probably comes closest and is my main "utility" envelope generator.

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Post by cptnal » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:40 am

Just because Maths can be loads of different things doesn't mean it has to be all those things. Maths is my go-to envelope too for the reasons described. And what I like most about it is it has all the stuff right there to take a step further than being a plain envelope and to make it sing. You have a secondary modulation source, loads of attenuversion, clock division, etc., etc.... In other words it takes something that makes something else go from quiet-to-loud-and-quiet-again, and gives you something you can use to actually craft your sound.

Of course there's more than one way of achieving anything in this game, but my point is the idea that using Maths "just" for envelopes is a waste is a specious one.
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Post by southberry » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:19 am

I know what do you mean ... beyond all it can do , Maths is also my favorite enveloppe module. But I also have a A-140 ... which is better suited for "keyboard like" things. When I use a midi keyboard / touch pad to play, I prefer to patch an ADSR . You can do an ADSR with Maths but it's pointless for my pov ... When you play with my hands I always dial all the A/D/S/R parameters to find the sweet spot ... maybe a Contour can do it but if you already have a A_140 I think you don't really need it ...

My solution was to add a Function near my Maths ... it can be a third ENV channel when you send it into Maths ch 2 or 3 ;)
I can totally understand why you can have 3 Maths in a 9U system :D

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Re: Maths for envelopes conundrum!

Post by Arneb » Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:08 am

deke wrote:I have a serous problem. When I use my Maths, channel 1 and or 4, as an envelope, it sounds too darn good. I have a A-140 and a Pons Asinorum, but they just don't measure up to Maths. Maths makes my modules (Black Wavetable VCO, Plaits, Studio Electronics Oscillation) sound so amazingly good. Fast and snappy, slow and everything in between is just sooooooo much better. The other two kind of pale in comparison. As a result, I end up not using Maths for all the other things it can do, even as a nice simple source of modulation.

Am I missing something with my ADSR/AD modules? Should I get a used Intelijell Quadra for a similar quality and versatility? Another Maths (half joking) or a couple of Contours? Something else?
If I was in your situation I'd reserve Maths for easily noticeable envelopes and the A-140 and PA for more subtle modulation. Then again I just don't enjoy selling things.

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Post by EATyourGUITAR » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:03 am

if I can find the right slew and the right 281 or DUSG clone and a min max circuit and a compact comparator then I can finally ditch maths. I never liked maths even though I like maths.
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deke
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Post by deke » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:52 am

mritenburg wrote:
deke wrote:
mritenburg wrote:Maths is awesome, but you should get to know your A-140. Talk about snappy envelopes! The 3 different timing settings allow for super-wide operation. Its not sexy or esoteric like a lot of the flashy newer euro brands, but what it does, it does extremely well. It’s actually one of my favorite euro envelopes.
I don't want to give up on it. I swear I just tried every setting imaginable with H, M and L, and I seem to be finding things I was not finding before. I have been wanking on it for 30 minutes and I can't stop. Thanks for pushing me!
Set it to H, turn all the knobs to 0. Adjust D to get the snappy attack/delay you want. The A-140 can be so quick in H mode that you can get clicks. If you get clicks and want to get rid of them, just turn A up a little until the clicks go away.

I never us S unless I am triggering notes in real-time with a keyboard and want the length of the envelope to track the length of a key press.

You can mimic the vactrol ring of a low pass gate by setting a snappy envelope and adding some R to simulate the vactrol response. Before there were low pass gates in euro I would use a low pass filter with the resonance turned all the way down and an A-140 to emulate the low pass gate sound.
Thanks. I think I was a little dismissive of this and probably and paid less little attention to D and S over A and D and stuck to M mode. I'm running it through my OToole scope and what I am seeing is not what I, in my ignorance, thought it was doing, so this is fun.

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Post by deke » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:56 am

cptnal wrote:Just because Maths can be loads of different things doesn't mean it has to be all those things. Maths is my go-to envelope too for the reasons described. And what I like most about it is it has all the stuff right there to take a step further than being a plain envelope and to make it sing. You have a secondary modulation source, loads of attenuversion, clock division, etc., etc.... In other words it takes something that makes something else go from quiet-to-loud-and-quiet-again, and gives you something you can use to actually craft your sound.

Of course there's more than one way of achieving anything in this game, but my point is the idea that using Maths "just" for envelopes is a waste is a specious one.
I guess I fell into that line of thinking or imagined peer judgement. Why? I have no idea. The logic (no pun intended) of my thinking was absurd. "Hey, I really really love what this module does for my sound, please tell me why I shouldn't use it like that and use something else."

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Post by starthief » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:10 am

I've tried several envelopes in my modular journey, but I really feel like Make Noise nails it. Maths, Function, Contour, all three just feel perfect.

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Post by droningspaghettimonster » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:07 am

the new klavis quadigy has the most advanced control over shape/time i've seen in a envelope module, the interface is genius and the price very good. i've not received it yet but i'm hoping to make it replace my maths for other duties.

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Post by lisa » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:50 am

I’ve said it at least ten times before but these threads keep popping up so here we go (8-)): Maths is a fine envelope generator but if you only use it for envelopes it’s rather expensive and big. There are better options.
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Post by insoul8 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:51 am

How do you guys feel about the Frap Tools Falistri when compared to Maths / DUSG / Rampage?

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Post by deke » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:57 am

lisa wrote:I’ve said it at least ten times before but these threads keep popping up so here we go (8-)): Maths is a fine envelope generator but if you only use it for envelopes it’s rather expensive and big. There are better options.
Okay, that was a question in my post. What options do you recommend?

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Post by damase » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:20 am

watching the verbos youtube videos opened me up to a few more uses of the sustain stage in their multi envelope... like to patch a periodic gate from sequencer in to sustain vca input, providing another groovy/rhythmic level shift that can be dialed in subtle

i did like maths for envelopes a lot as well but it is a jack of all trades and the multi envelope is focused on envelopes. so its less flexible but more immediate for getting interesting shapes in that context.

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Post by lisa » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:36 am

deke wrote:Okay, that was a question in my post. What options do you recommend?
True, I was really answering some other folks in the thread rather than your original post.

As you suggested yourself, I’d go for two of Joranalogue Contour 1. Cheaper and smaller but all the envelope generator power of Maths.
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Post by suboptimal » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:29 am

At one point I had four Maths. I still have two, and have experimented with lots of different EGs over the years in the meantime. I recently re-acquired a Double Andore mk1, which I've been deeply happy with as a significantly different EG than the Maths. Lots of useful and interesting shapes there, though it's significantly more complex due to the wavetable approach.

With EGs, the pairing with the VCA is vital. In my first time with the Double Andore I didn't appreciate the utility of having integrated and therefore matched VCAs. It's not strictly necessary - I have a bunch of Intellijel uVCAs and find I can dial in lots of variation with those and Maths, but there are times when this combination doesn't get as snappy as the DA can.

TLDR: Don't forget to explore VCAs.

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Post by Rost + Licht » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:39 am

I found that Maths is especially beautiful on "opening" sustained sounds like pads or morphagene drones from a closed snappy chord to an really sweet decay. Combined with an LPG (I use the Metasonix) it gets nicely round in tone and just pleasent to the ear. Something about the precise fast envolopes of maths makes everything your combine with it detailed it seems for me.

I havent explored the many possibilites besides basic Patching and Gate extraction that much with Maths yet. Does anyone have an idea for extracting information you can use somewhere else in the patch from an Envelope for lets say an abstract Techno element? Something in the sense of an Comparator.
Would like to combine it with my Stages and O&C so that there is a useful dialogue between those.

Any hints much appreciated!

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