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Sample & Hold patches
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules  
Author Sample & Hold patches
Andy137
Digging in Sample & Hold direction. Want to know how I should use it in the right way? Typical circuits...
sutekina bipu-on
I never loved them because i am a sequencing freak, but i liked to patch one with a lfo and a vcs so i could hold/skip random notes
cptnal
Andy137 wrote:
Digging in Sample & Hold direction. Want to know how I should use it in the right way? Typical circuits...


Search YouTube for Rob Hordijk - he's really opened up my sampling and holding.

One way I've applied his way of thinking: Take the Krell patch, where you modulate the rise and fall time of a cycling function. Instead of directly modulating them, send the modulators first to sample and holds clocked by the original function's EOC. Compare with how it sounded without the sample and holds.

Now take those modulators and modulate their rise and fall times in the same way.... The result is still Krellish, but patterns start to emerge.

Another use is to have a sequence available to multiple voices. Each voice has its own sample and hold where the input is the sequence and the trigger is the voice's own trigger pattern. Helps to have a buffered sample and hold to avoid drooping pitch.
EATyourGUITAR
Patch anything to the input. Patch the output to the 1v/Oct input on a VCO or a VCF. You may want to attenuate the output of the sample & hold module. Patching to the FM input instead of the 1v/Oct input is a nice way to get an attenuator in the patch without the need for an attenuator module. Usually the input to the sample & hold is white noise but sometimes it is a sequencer or midi keyboard 1v/oct. You can clock it from the master clock or the keyboard gate signal.

It is extremely common to see the output of a sample & hold go into a quantizer before it goes into the 1v/Oct input. This is only for people making normal music. For all other people who want to experiment making new sounds, there will be no rules.

Some people use S&H to save the previous note from a sequencer. That way they can play two notes at the same time with two VCO on a one track sequencer. You can even chain them together to get 4 notes. This is called an ASR.

There is another related module called a track and hold.
MvK
Its also nice to get some kind of time quantisation. Use a gate at the input that isn't synced to a clock like a frequency modulated square LFO, use a clock as trigger for the S&H. Now the gates coming out of the output will be syncronized to the clock, also the gate length.

Also using a S&H in front of a comparator can give you some nice results.

Sample rate reduction (not really because its analog but the effect is similar): use an oscialltor at the input and another one of considerable higher frequency at the trigger input. The output wave has got stairs now, can be very harsh depending on the interval between the 2 oscs.
Andy137
cptnal wrote:
Andy137 wrote:
Digging in Sample & Hold direction. Want to know how I should use it in the right way? Typical circuits...


Search YouTube for Rob Hordijk - he's really opened up my sampling and holding.

One way I've applied his way of thinking: Take the Krell patch, where you modulate the rise and fall time of a cycling function. Instead of directly modulating them, send the modulators first to sample and holds clocked by the original function's EOC. Compare with how it sounded without the sample and holds.

Now take those modulators and modulate their rise and fall times in the same way.... The result is still Krellish, but patterns start to emerge.




Another use is to have a sequence available to multiple voices. Each voice has its own sample and hold where the input is the sequence and the trigger is the voice's own trigger pattern. Helps to have a buffered sample and hold to avoid drooping pitch.





Thanks, I'll check it.
Andy137
MvK wrote:
Its also nice to get some kind of time quantisation. Use a gate at the input that isn't synced to a clock like a frequency modulated square LFO, use a clock as trigger for the S&H. Now the gates coming out of the output will be syncronized to the clock, also the gate length.

Also using a S&H in front of a comparator can give you some nice results.

Sample rate reduction (not really because its analog but the effect is similar): use an oscialltor at the input and another one of considerable higher frequency at the trigger input. The output wave has got stairs now, can be very harsh depending on the interval between the 2 oscs.


Thank you. Gonna try
BaloErets
sutekina bipu-on wrote:
I never loved them because i am a sequencing freak, but i liked to patch one with a lfo and a vcs so i could hold/skip random notes


Trying to understand the relation between being a sequencing freak and never loving sample and hold hmmm.....

I'm not taking a jab at you at all as I'm genuinely curious.
EATyourGUITAR
if you have 8 sample hold modules, an attenuator, a precision adder, a quantizer, white noise, you have a turing machine 8 note looping sequencer.
bastian23
white noise -> s&h -> decay of hihat or level of hihat.
Paranormal Patroler
BaloErets wrote:
sutekina bipu-on wrote:
I never loved them because i am a sequencing freak, but i liked to patch one with a lfo and a vcs so i could hold/skip random notes


Trying to understand the relation between being a sequencing freak and never loving sample and hold hmmm.....

I'm not taking a jab at you at all as I'm genuinely curious.


Being a sequencing freak myself I presume he says that he rarely uses S&H as a sequencer, since he already has a lot of sequencers and that's a more precise way of playing notes. That's how I understood it at least.

A clock, a trigger delay, two S&Hs and an attenuverting mixer is a good way to introduce pseudo-velocity in your patching: plug the clock to the trigger delay and have a non-delayed and a delayed version of it fir the S&Hs. Mult your CV and plug it at the S&H inputs. Now use the attenuverting mixer to subtract the non-delayed signal from your delayed signal.

The CV you're getting at the output is dependent on how fast your original CV changes. A rate of change if you will, which can be used in many ways.

You might need to slew things here and there but the basics are there.
cptnal
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
A clock, a trigger delay, two S&Hs and an attenuverting mixer is a good way to introduce pseudo-velocity in your patching: plug the clock to the trigger delay and have a non-delayed and a delayed version of it fir the S&Hs. Mult your CV and plug it at the S&H inputs. Now use the attenuverting mixer to subtract the non-delayed signal from your delayed signal.

The CV you're getting at the output is dependent on how fast your original CV changes. A rate of change if you will, which can be used in many ways.

You might need to slew things here and there but the basics are there.


Nice! I can see this being a staple sub-patch. thumbs up
Paranormal Patroler
cptnal wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
A clock, a trigger delay, two S&Hs and an attenuverting mixer is a good way to introduce pseudo-velocity in your patching: plug the clock to the trigger delay and have a non-delayed and a delayed version of it fir the S&Hs. Mult your CV and plug it at the S&H inputs. Now use the attenuverting mixer to subtract the non-delayed signal from your delayed signal.

The CV you're getting at the output is dependent on how fast your original CV changes. A rate of change if you will, which can be used in many ways.

You might need to slew things here and there but the basics are there.


Nice! I can see this being a staple sub-patch. thumbs up


Worked on a new design (coming soon!) which is centered around this specific patch. I've been discussing rate-of-change and S&H/T&H a lot lately and I figure there ought to be something out there that does this, and more. So it should be out soon! hihi

Weirdly enough I'm mostly interested in T&H and not as much S&H, which is very unlike me - considering how much of a staple S&H is! The above patch can be redone with T&H, albeit slightly differently. I also came up with a simple custom manual T&H module, as I think having the ability to "lock" CV values on a live patch is a good idea.

In case anyone has missed it the Doepfer a-152 is a really good module to get into all these things.

Anyway, back on topic. hihi
ratchet
Some great use of S+H to generate melodies (with LFO and other tools) in this video.

cptnal
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
In case anyone has missed it the Doepfer a-152 is a really good module to get into all these things.


I plan to understand it one day. eek!
Paranormal Patroler
cptnal wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
In case anyone has missed it the Doepfer a-152 is a really good module to get into all these things.


I plan to understand it one day. eek!


It's super easy to figure it out! It's not a complex module at all.

It consists of three sections, all of which have common controls. CV control and clock input with reset. These apply to all three!

Then you have the three sections: one is a switch (one input, multiple output, or as is typical with switches, multiple inputs, one output), the last one is a is just a Gate high when a specific step is selected. The middle section is a T&H or S&H input that assigns the S&H value to the current step output.

That's it.

You move through the steps either by using a clock, or a CV address (CV controlled sequencer) and the same step applies for all three sections. I should rebuy this module, it's been a long time since I've used it but I've had a lot of fun with it. Don't get discouraged, I'm certain you have far more complex modules on your setup as we speak!
cptnal
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
In case anyone has missed it the Doepfer a-152 is a really good module to get into all these things.


I plan to understand it one day. eek!


It's super easy to figure it out! It's not a complex module at all.

It consists of three sections, all of which have common controls. CV control and clock input with reset. These apply to all three!

Then you have the three sections: one is a switch (one input, multiple output, or as is typical with switches, multiple inputs, one output), the last one is a is just a Gate high when a specific step is selected. The middle section is a T&H or S&H input that assigns the S&H value to the current step output.

That's it.

You move through the steps either by using a clock, or a CV address (CV controlled sequencer) and the same step applies for all three sections. I should rebuy this module, it's been a long time since I've used it but I've had a lot of fun with it. Don't get discouraged, I'm certain you have far more complex modules on your setup as we speak!


Thanks! thumbs up

I've put it on my candidates list for more research later, so we can get on with the sample and hold talk. SlayerBadger!
sutekina bipu-on
BaloErets wrote:
sutekina bipu-on wrote:
I never loved them because i am a sequencing freak, but i liked to patch one with a lfo and a vcs so i could hold/skip random notes


Trying to understand the relation between being a sequencing freak and never loving sample and hold hmmm.....

I'm not taking a jab at you at all as I'm genuinely curious.


I simply mean i tend to compose with a song structure with polysynths then send pitch & gate to my euro system to treat it like a midi sequenced mono synth.

I've experimented with lfo's and comparators with my A-152 to add some entropy to whatever the euro might be playing, but besides that i haven't really found a way to integrate it without it acting as something to provide uncertainty I don;t dislike s&h, just never really found *my* use for it yet
GreenPiece
bastian23 wrote:
white noise -> s&h -> decay of hihat or level of hihat.


This is a staple for me. Love using them for modular drums.

Actually most everything, currently on a s&h bender. lol

Personal favorite at the moment is Harvestman Polivoks Modulator.
pugix
From the ADDAC215 Dual S&H Module User Guide:

Rate of Change (RoC):
This module allows you to easily patch up what we call a Rate-of-Change patch. This patch tracks how quickly an incoming CV signal is changing over time and outputs this speed as a CV value between 0 and +5V. This output signal will be proportional to the speed which the incoming CV is changing: faster changes of the incoming CV will generate higher voltages, while slower CV changes will generate lower voltages.
To achieve this, we’ll be using both Sample-&-Hold sections alternating at a constant clock rate. This way we are always “holding” voltages from two points in time: the last clock and the new clock. Subtracting one value from the other, gives us the difference between the two held voltages. A fast incoming signal moving within a specific voltage range will output a bigger difference, compared to a slower incoming signal moving within the same voltage range.
This difference will always be a positive signal (e.g. if the incoming CV changes goes from 1V to 3V or 3V to 1V, the absolute difference is always 2V).
Utilizing the [Slew] sections has a drastic impact. It allows to get a fully dynamic output instead of steady voltages at every clock tick.
RoC patch:
Use both sections, taking advantage of the normalizations of the module!
1. Patch the incoming CV to be analyzed, to [INPUT A]. This is normalized to [INPUT B].
2. Set the switch to [TRIGGER A ALTERNATE] position to let your clock at [TRIGGER A] input trigger section A and then section B in an alternate fashion.
3. Patch a clock at [TRIGGER A] input, and set it a steady frequency that gives good results. This is the Sampling Rate that sets how often we’re sampling the voltage changes (our analysis time window).
4. Set both slews at a desired value and get your output signal from the [DIFFERENCE] output.
Paranormal Patroler
pugix wrote:
From the ADDAC215 Dual S&H Module User Guide:

Rate of Change (RoC):
This module allows you to easily patch up what we call a Rate-of-Change patch. This patch tracks how quickly an incoming CV signal is changing over time and outputs this speed as a CV value between 0 and +5V. This output signal will be proportional to the speed which the incoming CV is changing: faster changes of the incoming CV will generate higher voltages, while slower CV changes will generate lower voltages.
To achieve this, we’ll be using both Sample-&-Hold sections alternating at a constant clock rate. This way we are always “holding” voltages from two points in time: the last clock and the new clock. Subtracting one value from the other, gives us the difference between the two held voltages. A fast incoming signal moving within a specific voltage range will output a bigger difference, compared to a slower incoming signal moving within the same voltage range.
This difference will always be a positive signal (e.g. if the incoming CV changes goes from 1V to 3V or 3V to 1V, the absolute difference is always 2V).
Utilizing the [Slew] sections has a drastic impact. It allows to get a fully dynamic output instead of steady voltages at every clock tick.
RoC patch:
Use both sections, taking advantage of the normalizations of the module!
1. Patch the incoming CV to be analyzed, to [INPUT A]. This is normalized to [INPUT B].
2. Set the switch to [TRIGGER A ALTERNATE] position to let your clock at [TRIGGER A] input trigger section A and then section B in an alternate fashion.
3. Patch a clock at [TRIGGER A] input, and set it a steady frequency that gives good results. This is the Sampling Rate that sets how often we’re sampling the voltage changes (our analysis time window).
4. Set both slews at a desired value and get your output signal from the [DIFFERENCE] output.


hihi Glad this is making the rounds to the right people. You can do this with either T&H or S&H, and with toggling of a clock or a clock delay. Works nicely with either but I've found that T&H and slew works the best. Hence the above.
cptnal
Now all we need is for the module to be released. I've been scouting for advanced orders. hyper

Any favourite applications for the RoC patch? I can see it being useful for adjusting slew time for VC portamento, envelope decays times... Anything else you've found it particularly suited to?
Paranormal Patroler
cptnal wrote:
Now all we need is for the module to be released. I've been scouting for advanced orders. hyper

Any favourite applications for the RoC patch? I can see it being useful for adjusting slew time for VC portamento, envelope decays times... Anything else you've found it particularly suited to?


I guess you can order directly from ADDAC. They ship worldwide.
RoC has found itself in a lot of my patching lately, mostly whatever revolves around physical modelling. Think of it like velocity levels in MIDI. Any sequence change that goes from fast to slow, or any phrasing can be done using RoC, so plug it to filters, VCAs etc.

Other than that, and knowing that some of you are in the Generative thread, I'd say any Krell patch would benefit greatly from the RoC, or any kind of generative patch. Use the RoC to define how abrupt passages influence the sound in a different way than slower movements. It makes things more alive.

It's especially useful with controllers such as the ribbon controller.
cptnal
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
cptnal wrote:
Now all we need is for the module to be released. I've been scouting for advanced orders. hyper

Any favourite applications for the RoC patch? I can see it being useful for adjusting slew time for VC portamento, envelope decays times... Anything else you've found it particularly suited to?


I guess you can order directly from ADDAC. They ship worldwide.
RoC has found itself in a lot of my patching lately, mostly whatever revolves around physical modelling. Think of it like velocity levels in MIDI. Any sequence change that goes from fast to slow, or any phrasing can be done using RoC, so plug it to filters, VCAs etc.

Other than that, and knowing that some of you are in the Generative thread, I'd say any Krell patch would benefit greatly from the RoC, or any kind of generative patch. Use the RoC to define how abrupt passages influence the sound in a different way than slower movements. It makes things more alive.

It's especially useful with controllers such as the ribbon controller.


eek!

thumbs up

Yeah, been in touch with ADDAC, and there's a couple of vendors in the UK that carry the ADDAC line. Couple of weeks yet...
BlinkyLights
What a fantastic set of replies in this thread.

Thank you, all. So much knowledge being shared. Very helpful.
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