Emulating Buchla percussion style sounds using Instruo CS-L

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zerodivide
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Emulating Buchla percussion style sounds using Instruo CS-L

Post by zerodivide » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:32 pm

Hello friends,
This week I've been on an obsessive mission to try to replicate Buchla percussion style stuff using my Instruo CS-L + Verbos Amplitude and Tone Controller. For some reason I can't even get close. I have an Arturia Music Easel emulation nd I've nailed the patches in the VST through some trial and error. But somehow I can't get close to getting this sound in real life with my eurorack. Obviously they are different components but theoretically I should be able to get close given the principles of a complex oscillator right?

The pluckyness I can get using the Verbos with super fast triggers from Maths. But stuck on the tamber part. I've been experimenting with AM/FM Synthesis using one osc to modulate the other, like in the Buchla, modulating the wavefolder quickly, trying diff ratios , etc but I can't get close to the same tamber.

Does anyone with a CS-L want to take a stab and help me recreate these types of sounds ? I would be really appreciative :)

Some examples:


Last edited by zerodivide on Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bemerritt
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Post by bemerritt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:58 pm

In my opinion a huge part of the buchla "sound" is the low pass gate, i am not too familiar with the verbos module, but it could be something to further explore.

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loopt
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Post by loopt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:11 pm

This video is a good introduction into Buchla FM pluckiness. The 258 would be your CS-L, the 281 your Maths, and the 292 your ATC.

CS-L and Maths are perfect for that kind of sound.
I'm not familiar with the Verbos ATC. Looking at the specs, it should be able to produce the classic LPG sound, though.

The sounds in the videos you linked are FM, not AM. Start with sine on sine FM.

Edit: And make that linear FM.
Last edited by loopt on Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by nios » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:17 pm

The ATC, as far as I know, tends to be rather short-length on that characteristic vactrol decay hum; I'm not sure if that's what you're feeling for though.

On the Cs-L, the architecture is different than the Buchla 259, as in it typically has one wavefolder with bias control as its timbre shaping rather than a folder and two more timbre/harmonic controls; it'll just sound different from things like that. If you haven't thoroughly studied the (excellent) manual recently posted for it, keep in mind Cs-L does have two internal sines going under the hood (off each osc) that you don't see, but are assignable to several internal modulation routing options; for example you can get FM effects from both index buses coming out of one final, or point one of those sines towards the wavefolder (or its bias) etc. That might get you somewhere..

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Post by zerodivide » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:23 pm

nios wrote:The ATC, as far as I know, tends to be rather short-length on that characteristic vactrol decay hum; I'm not sure if that's what you're feeling for though.

On the Cs-L, the architecture is different than the Buchla 259, as in it typically has one wavefolder with bias control as its timbre shaping rather than a folder and two more timbre/harmonic controls; it'll just sound different from things like that. If you haven't thoroughly studied the (excellent) manual recently posted for it, keep in mind Cs-L does have two internal sines going under the hood (off each osc) that you don't see, but are assignable to several internal modulation routing options; for example you can get FM effects from both index buses coming out of one final, or point one of those sines towards the wavefolder (or its bias) etc. That might get you somewhere..
thanks for the long reply. I think the short length is a plus because on the Arturia, I'm getting this sound using a super quick Pulse to excite the LPG in the VST. Seems something magic is happening in the transient of the Buchla though to give it that percussive element.

About the CS-L, yes I've finally learned the architecture with respect to the internal routing stuff. Tried diff things but no luck so far :)

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Post by loopt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:30 pm

One of the important things about low pass gates is that they transform a very short pulse into a longer decay in frequency and amplitude.
So maybe the Verbos ATC really is too quick?

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Post by bemerritt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:32 pm

zerodivide wrote:
nios wrote:The ATC, as far as I know, tends to be rather short-length on that characteristic vactrol decay hum; I'm not sure if that's what you're feeling for though.

On the Cs-L, the architecture is different than the Buchla 259, as in it typically has one wavefolder with bias control as its timbre shaping rather than a folder and two more timbre/harmonic controls; it'll just sound different from things like that. If you haven't thoroughly studied the (excellent) manual recently posted for it, keep in mind Cs-L does have two internal sines going under the hood (off each osc) that you don't see, but are assignable to several internal modulation routing options; for example you can get FM effects from both index buses coming out of one final, or point one of those sines towards the wavefolder (or its bias) etc. That might get you somewhere..

thanks for the long reply. I think the short length is a plus because on the Arturia, I'm getting this sound using a super quick Pulse to excite the LPG in the VST. Seems something magic is happening in the transient of the Buchla though to give it that percussive element.

About the CS-L, yes I've finally learned the architecture with respect to the internal routing stuff. Tried diff things but no luck so far :)
I think you are mixing up the decay of the envelope and that of the vactrol. You want the vactrol to ring out, and as you go down that rabbit hole you will find each is different, even if in the same circuit. So emulation of sounds can be fun/difficult.

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Post by zerodivide » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:56 pm

I'm new-ish to LPGs, I recently got the Verbos Amp & Tone and a Takaab 2xLPG. Doesn't the envelope length affect the vactrol length, since that's what im feeding into the cv input of each?

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Post by 3hands » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:59 pm

How does the Dual Borg do for the purpose of the LPG in a Buchla “log drum” Patch. I’ve been messing with it, but can’t get the length of the ring I want on it! Like Zerodivide mentioned about the ATC, I’m wondering if it’s not possible to ring out the gate.

I’m also fairly new to modular so this could be a newb mistake.

Thanks!!
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Post by loopt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:15 pm

zerodivide wrote:Doesn't the envelope length affect the vactrol length, since that's what im feeding into the cv input of each?
No, it affects the sustain of the sound but not the decay of the vactrols. Those are two different things. Think of the vactrol response as a decay component that always gets added to your sound, no matter how short the decay of your envelope is.
This vactrol response lies at the core of Buchla style plucks . So when trying to emulate it, it may be better to at first avoid envelopes with longer decays. Use very short pulses (Maths at zero attack and very short exponential decays) and let the vactrols do their thing.
Later you can always use your envelope to further refine the sound.

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Post by mritenburg » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:33 pm

The Verbos ATC is perfectly capable of LPG duties. Just turn the resonance all the way down and use an ultra-expo envelope from your Maths. It’s a misconception that you don’t need to adjust the envelope. The sound you send through the ATC from your oscillator will produce the best results if it is AM or Ring modulated.

Here’s an example of the ATC producing classic Buchla percussion sounds. Though the oscillator is the Verbos CO. Also, just for historical purposes, the original Buchla percussion tones that everyone loves were first synthesized by Morton Subotnick using the Buchla 100; a system that did not have low pass gates nor vactrols. He did it with envelope generators, vca’s, and filters. You can hear the first examples on Silver Apples of the Moon. You can patch up the low pass gate sound using a low pass filter as a vca. You just have to spend time getting the envelope right.

http://soundcloud.com/labelleaurore/verbos-patches

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Post by zerodivide » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:13 pm

mritenburg wrote:The Verbos ATC is perfectly capable of LPG duties. Just turn the resonance all the way down and use an ultra-expo envelope from your Maths. It’s a misconception that you don’t need to adjust the envelope. The sound you send through the ATC from your oscillator will produce the best results if it is AM or Ring modulated.

Here’s an example of the ATC producing classic Buchla percussion sounds. Though the oscillator is the Verbos CO. Also, just for historical purposes, the original Buchla percussion tones that everyone loves were first synthesized by Morton Subotnick using the Buchla 100; a system that did not have low pass gates nor vactrols. He did it with envelope generators, vca’s, and filters. You can hear the first examples on Silver Apples of the Moon. You can patch up the low pass gate sound using a low pass filter as a vca. You just have to spend time getting the envelope right.

I think the envelope isnt the issue for me here, I can get very nice plucky sounds experimenting with the attenuation level and ratios in Maths. Basically almost fully expontential but a little bit less, and then then Fall time around 3 o'clock. I think the base sound itself is the problem, how to get a tamber that sounds like wooden percussion sounds. Do you remember what sort of FM you were doing on that patch?

http://soundcloud.com/labelleaurore/verbos-patches
sounds incredible! Would be very happy if I could replicate this (or be in the ballpark) using my CS-L. I have been considering switching the CSL for a Verbos CO but I like how the CS-L has many more possibilities. Still the sound eludes me as of now

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Post by loopt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:00 pm

zerodivide wrote:Would be very happy if I could replicate this
Keep at it! :sb:
Just read up more on complex oscillators, LPGs, FM/AM/RM synthesis and Buchla/Serge/Eurorack esoterica on this forum. It's all here in the archives.
You've got some very powerful modules but it will take some time and effort to wrap your mind around them.
I don't know what your rig looks like in its entirety but the CS-L, a Maths, and the ATC is a universe of sound and music.

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Post by brandonlogic » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:45 pm

yes any (ideally analog) oscillator's with a wide fm index and proper LPG's can make these sounds.
doesn't even need to be a "complex" oscillator.
I use two Doepfer a 110-4's -> Natural Gate for these sounds all the time and they work great!

You can also get nice fm percussion by pinging a filter (trigger in the audio input) with the resonance up a bit and audio rate fm'ing the filter. some filters are better for this than others, random source vcfq is my fav for this.
Last edited by brandonlogic on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by zerodivide » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:50 pm

loopt wrote:
zerodivide wrote:Would be very happy if I could replicate this
Keep at it! :sb:
Just read up more on complex oscillators, LPGs, FM/AM/RM synthesis and Buchla/Serge/Eurorack esoterica on this forum. It's all here in the archives.
You've got some very powerful modules but it will take some time and effort to wrap your mind around them.
I don't know what your rig looks like in its entirety but the CS-L, a Maths, and the ATC is a universe of sound and music.
I'm pretty well versed honestly with my gear. And many years of experience with synthesis. But getting that Buchla sound isnt an obvious thing so good call on reading on that stuff. Thing is the CS-L has such a big FM frequency range, and so many patching possibilities that the options are more extensive than the Verbos CO. In the store I was getting more metallic tambers almost instantly with the Verbos. The CS-L sounds quite different, I'm actually wondering if it can even excel at this sound. Verbos is meant to sound like a Buchla. But more research is needed before I give up and swap. Thank you though.

And if you're curious heres my current rack https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/961796

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Post by brandonlogic » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:55 pm

zerodivide wrote:
loopt wrote:
zerodivide wrote:Would be very happy if I could replicate this
Keep at it! :sb:
Just read up more on complex oscillators, LPGs, FM/AM/RM synthesis and Buchla/Serge/Eurorack esoterica on this forum. It's all here in the archives.
You've got some very powerful modules but it will take some time and effort to wrap your mind around them.
I don't know what your rig looks like in its entirety but the CS-L, a Maths, and the ATC is a universe of sound and music.
I'm pretty well versed honestly with my gear. Thing is the CS-L has such a big FM frequency range, and so many patching possibilities that the options are more extensive than the Verbos CO. In the store I was getting more metallic tambers almost instantly with the Verbos. The CS-L sounds quite different, I'm actually wondering if it can even excel at this sound. Verbos is meant to sound like a Buchla. But more research is needed before I give up and swap. Thank you though.

And if you're curious heres my current rack https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/961796
just because it has extra features dosnt mean you need to use them. especially for this type of sound. just use sine waves on the csl, one os fm'ing the other... you dont even need to patch anything as the sines are normalized to each others fm inputs.. just play with the frequency relationships and fm amounts to dial in the sound you like. the dedicated AM/ring mod output works great for this too for a more subtle sound. as others have said its all about the LPG.

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Post by zerodivide » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:58 pm

loopt wrote:
zerodivide wrote:Doesn't the envelope length affect the vactrol length, since that's what im feeding into the cv input of each?
No, it affects the sustain of the sound but not the decay of the vactrols. Those are two different things. Think of the vactrol response as a decay component that always gets added to your sound, no matter how short the decay of your envelope is.
This vactrol response lies at the core of Buchla style plucks . So when trying to emulate it, it may be better to at first avoid envelopes with longer decays. Use very short pulses (Maths at zero attack and very short exponential decays) and let the vactrols do their thing.
Later you can always use your envelope to further refine the sound.
edit: nevermind, with maths at expontentially shortest pulse possible, I am still getting a nice ringing out of my LPG
Last edited by zerodivide on Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mritenburg » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:01 pm

zerodivide wrote:I think the base sound itself is the problem, how to get a tamber that sounds like wooden percussion sounds. Do you remember what sort of FM you were doing on that patch?
I didn’t use FM, I used the AM capabilities of the Verbos CO, but as others have pointed out, it doesn’t really matter which oscillators you use, just employ AM modulation, or Ring modulation for your base timbre.

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Post by brandonlogic » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:02 pm

zerodivide wrote:
loopt wrote:
zerodivide wrote:Doesn't the envelope length affect the vactrol length, since that's what im feeding into the cv input of each?
No, it affects the sustain of the sound but not the decay of the vactrols. Those are two different things. Think of the vactrol response as a decay component that always gets added to your sound, no matter how short the decay of your envelope is.
This vactrol response lies at the core of Buchla style plucks . So when trying to emulate it, it may be better to at first avoid envelopes with longer decays. Use very short pulses (Maths at zero attack and very short exponential decays) and let the vactrols do their thing.
Later you can always use your envelope to further refine the sound.
loopt: the thing is with my LPGs here if the trigger source is a tiny pulse like the smallest trig from Maths, the sound decays that quickly too. I'm not hearing the Vactrol's full strength. It disappears as quickly as the pulse. hmmm
all vactrols are different. some are faster than others... even in buchla. one 292 might not sound the same as another 292. thats the nature of vactrols.

Natural gate is cool because it doses not use vactrols but sounds just as good and lets you dial in the response you like. however they are not cheap though and not easy to get.

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Post by zerodivide » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:16 pm

Ill keep trying thanks guys :)
And yeah Rabid Elephant seems like a beast!

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Post by zerodivide » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:42 pm

brandonlogic wrote: for this type of sound. just use sine waves on the csl, one os fm'ing the other... you dont even need to patch anything as the sines are normalized to each others fm inputs.. just play with the frequency relationships and fm amounts to dial in the sound you like. the dedicated AM/ring mod output works great for this too for a more subtle sound. as others have said its all about the LPG.
thats actually exactly what I was doing before making this post. no luck! curious if somebody with a CS-L can try this experiment

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Post by loopt » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:34 am

zerodivide wrote: I'm pretty well versed honestly with my gear.
I didn't want to imply that you aren't.
Sometimes we don't see the forest for the trees and then it's usually best practice to break everything down to the basics.
zerodivide wrote: And if you're curious heres my current rack
That looks like a ton of fun.
Last edited by loopt on Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by brandonlogic » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:28 am

zerodivide wrote:
brandonlogic wrote: for this type of sound. just use sine waves on the csl, one os fm'ing the other... you dont even need to patch anything as the sines are normalized to each others fm inputs.. just play with the frequency relationships and fm amounts to dial in the sound you like. the dedicated AM/ring mod output works great for this too for a more subtle sound. as others have said its all about the LPG.
thats actually exactly what I was doing before making this post. no luck! curious if somebody with a CS-L can try this experiment
What do you mean no luck? What happened when you tried?
I have the csl too and works just fine for this...
If you posted a recording of what your getting it might help us give you suggestions.

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Post by zerodivide » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:23 pm

Here's the best I've gotten so far:


Sending the Triangle waveform of the top OSC with FM into Multiply for some Ring Mod and then mixing that with the Final Sine Output of the bottom OSC which is also slightly FM-ed. That goes into my Takaab LPG triggered by the shortest Math pulse. Then sent to Verbos Amp & Tone for some more shaping/filtering.

A cool sound kinda but still not that wooden percussion like thing I'm going for
Last edited by zerodivide on Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by zerodivide » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:26 pm

edit: double post

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