New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

Moderators: Kent, Joe., analogdigital, infradead, lisa, parasitk, plord

User avatar
veets
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 306
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:54 pm
Location: New York's Finger Lakes
Contact:

Post by veets » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:06 pm

I've had the ECHOZ for a few days and while it's pretty cool, I do have one small complaint. When I use the time knob to adjust delay time, the ECHOZ makes a sound similar to FF on a reel-to-reel before settling at the selected delay time. In other words, there is not an audibly smooth transition as you increase or decrease delay time. Rather, you adjust the time, wait for the ECHOZ to settle at the new rate and then decide if you like that rate... repeat until satisfied.

Now it could be that this is desirable from the perspective of some users and integral to the effect being emulated. Or it could be the nature of the circuit or the purposeful design of the firmware. (It might even be a 1DI0t error on my part.)

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

User avatar
Faastwalker
Common Wiggler
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:59 am
Location: Australia

Post by Faastwalker » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:43 pm

veets wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Isn't that normal for delay effects? Unless it's some sort of granular effect? I'm not sure to be honest. I've just never used a delay effect this DIDN'T do what you are describing. I thought that was normal. But would be cool if you could sweep time without turning everything into a Dub track.

User avatar
veets
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 306
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:54 pm
Location: New York's Finger Lakes
Contact:

Post by veets » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:06 am

Faastwalker wrote:
veets wrote:Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Isn't that normal for delay effects? Unless it's some sort of granular effect? I'm not sure to be honest. I've just never used a delay effect this DIDN'T do what you are describing. I thought that was normal. But would be cool if you could sweep time without turning everything into a Dub track.
Until now I've been using Disting mk4 as my delay. It uses an encoder with detents. Each turn increases the delay level (or reverb amount) by a unit. Disting is the only delay/reverb I've ever used, so my expectations may be wacked.

continuum
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:59 am

Post by continuum » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:42 am

veets wrote:I've had the ECHOZ for a few days and while it's pretty cool, I do have one small complaint. When I use the time knob to adjust delay time, the ECHOZ makes a sound similar to FF on a reel-to-reel before settling at the selected delay time. In other words, there is not an audibly smooth transition as you increase or decrease delay time. Rather, you adjust the time, wait for the ECHOZ to settle at the new rate and then decide if you like that rate... repeat until satisfied.

Now it could be that this is desirable from the perspective of some users and integral to the effect being emulated. Or it could be the nature of the circuit or the purposeful design of the firmware. (It might even be a 1DI0t error on my part.)

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
There are two ways to deal with changing the delay read point in memory; 1) just move to the new point; 2) interpolate the samples.

The first method results in discontinuities in the audio when it jumps from one sample to the other. This causes distortion since the discontinuity is a one sample offset that contains the entire frequency spectrum (i.e. an impulse). This could be OK for a single jump from point to point but modulating the time turns the output into a wash of white noise pretty quickly. Almost no one likes this effect.

Interpolation removes the distortion from the discontinuous jump in exchange for modulating the frequency. On the plus side, this very effectively emulates the sound of tape and BBD devices as well as early digital delays. Most of our customers not only like this sound but insist on it. In the case of the tape echo programs this sound is probably exaggerated a little bit so you can easily do the runaway saturated feedback howls that scream 'tape!'.
Tiptop Audio R&D
www.tiptopaudio.com/

User avatar
paperCUT
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:13 pm
Location: Stockholm

Post by paperCUT » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:50 am

I dont think I've ever owned a piece of hardware that didn't have interpolation, it does seem like a recipe for glitch.

User avatar
Junk Rhythm
Big Bottom Shaker
Posts: 2243
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:16 pm
Location: Hollywood, CA

Post by Junk Rhythm » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:44 am

continuum wrote:
veets wrote:I've had the ECHOZ for a few days and while it's pretty cool, I do have one small complaint. When I use the time knob to adjust delay time, the ECHOZ makes a sound similar to FF on a reel-to-reel before settling at the selected delay time. In other words, there is not an audibly smooth transition as you increase or decrease delay time. Rather, you adjust the time, wait for the ECHOZ to settle at the new rate and then decide if you like that rate... repeat until satisfied.

Now it could be that this is desirable from the perspective of some users and integral to the effect being emulated. Or it could be the nature of the circuit or the purposeful design of the firmware. (It might even be a 1DI0t error on my part.)

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
There are two ways to deal with changing the delay read point in memory; 1) just move to the new point; 2) interpolate the samples.

The first method results in discontinuities in the audio when it jumps from one sample to the other. This causes distortion since the discontinuity is a one sample offset that contains the entire frequency spectrum (i.e. an impulse). This could be OK for a single jump from point to point but modulating the time turns the output into a wash of white noise pretty quickly. Almost no one likes this effect.

Interpolation removes the distortion from the discontinuous jump in exchange for modulating the frequency. On the plus side, this very effectively emulates the sound of tape and BBD devices as well as early digital delays. Most of our customers not only like this sound but insist on it. In the case of the tape echo programs this sound is probably exaggerated a little bit so you can easily do the runaway saturated feedback howls that scream 'tape!'.
Quoted for emphasis. This is exactly what I want and expect in a delay.

smoo
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:34 am

Post by smoo » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:27 pm

Just received the Z5000 and the Zverb. Both are great, but the Zverb !!! I have all kinds of Reverbs but this one is made for synths. Maybe my new fav Reverb in the studio for faster analogue sequencer sounds. I absolutely love it. I also prefer it over the ZDSP, I have all cards. Still love my ZDSP. I will get Echoz (ZEcho?) too. I try to make examples, it does sound much nicer than all the soundexamples so far.

User avatar
cackland
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1710
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:42 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

Post by cackland » Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:45 pm

smoo wrote:Just received the Z5000 and the Zverb. Both are great, but the Zverb !!! I have all kinds of Reverbs but this one is made for synths. Maybe my new fav Reverb in the studio for faster analogue sequencer sounds. I absolutely love it. I also prefer it over the ZDSP, I have all cards. Still love my ZDSP. I will get Echoz (ZEcho?) too. I try to make examples, it does sound much nicer than all the soundexamples so far.
This is good to hear. I'm waiting for an in-depth video of these modules before I consider. Was wondering if the verb is the same as the ZDSP verb cartridges..

continuum
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:59 am

Post by continuum » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:05 am

cackland wrote:Was wondering if the verb is the same as the ZDSP verb cartridges..
As stated earlier in this thread - I wrote all of the programs for these three modules. There is no Valhalla code in any of them.
Tiptop Audio R&D
www.tiptopaudio.com/

smoo
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:34 am

Post by smoo » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:34 am

Congratulations. I love those new Reverbs. I dont only like the Reverb tail but also what it does to the main signal on some algos.

I would prefer the ZVerb over a ZDSP with all the Cards if its just for Reverbs I use the ZDSP mainly for Delays and Chorus/Ensemble Effects. I have two ZDSPs. Couldnt sell the old one when I ordered the new one.

continuum
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:59 am

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by continuum » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:19 pm

A demo of the Reverb bank of the Z5000. All of these are in ZVERB as well:

Tiptop Audio R&D
www.tiptopaudio.com/

smoo
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:34 am

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by smoo » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:58 pm

After making hours of music with the Z5000 and the ZVerb, I must say : WHY oh why are they not stereo. The Levels are not an issue at all, but the modules are not intended to work together (!!). Example: I always patch my Delays into a Reverb. Both algorythms do sound extremely well. The Outputs are stereo, Inputs are Mono. Obviously you loose all stereo information if the first module (Z5000 or Echoz) if you use two modules. Or 2 Modules if you have all of them.

So I prefer to use the Z5000 before a ZDSP or a EOS Reverb (out of production, Audio damage). Thats working really well. If you like Stereo Delays, the ZVERB is diffucult to use. I will use it on my Mixer.

I absolutely love the Sound and the Algos. My favorite is the 70ies Bank. It lacks some high frequencies, but its rich and lively.

I wish Tip Top would bring those programs to the ZDSP, The reverbs are wonderful. Please?

continuum
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:59 am

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by continuum » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:24 pm

Most of the reverb algorithms sum inputs to mono (this includes Eventide, Lexicon, Strymon) so it would only be useful to do a stereo wet/dry mix. Reverb doesn't preserve the stereo image anyway - that's kind of the entire point of the reverb sound!

It's easy enough to send both delay outputs to the ZVERB using a mixer and some of the example audio and video do exactly that. The dry source will still be stereo and the effects will have their entirely synthesized stereo field as well.
Tiptop Audio R&D
www.tiptopaudio.com/

smoo
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:34 am

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by smoo » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:47 am

Yes I understand. But for example... Yesterday I had a sequencer sound through the (marvellous) Tape Pingpong Delay. My favorite Delay algo. (I have this algo in my Z5000 and the Echocard of my ZDSP). It just needs a small amount of reverb.
Patched into a ZVERB or summed together - and its not a ping pong delay anymore. So I patched it into the ZDSP but had to use another reverb, I used the vertigo card (sidechain reverb) which has another colour than halls of valhalla. I prefer the last reverb in the 70ies Bank of ZVerb. This long reverb is my favorite Reverb at the moment. I even prefer it over my Lexicon Model 200 and OTO Bam.
Or a stereo chorus from the Z5000 (love the esemble) into the ZVERB - its not a stereochorus anymore.

But its not a big problem, I will use the ZVERB on a AUX for my mixing desk.

continuum
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:59 am

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by continuum » Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:31 pm

smoo wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:47 am
I prefer the last reverb in the 70ies Bank of ZVerb. This long reverb is my favorite Reverb at the moment. I even prefer it over my Lexicon Model 200 and OTO Bam.
The last 70s program is as large as possible on the DSP chip maxing out both memory and processing power. Nice to see it compares well with the Lexi M200 (not to be confused with the MX200 which is Digitech) since the basic algorithm structure of the ZVERB Hall is based on the old Lexicon 'Concert Hall'. The 'Epic Mod Hall' in ZVERB cranks the diffusion and modulation in a way not possible on the Lexicon though.

Post some of the sounds - we love to hear them!
Tiptop Audio R&D
www.tiptopaudio.com/

continuum
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:59 am

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by continuum » Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:33 pm

This was posted in a separate thread and has a nice overview of the controls and some of the sounds on all 3 modules. Note, that it starts about 7 minutes in for some reason - the first 7 minutes are just the short sound examples, so make sure to rewind to the start!

Tiptop Audio R&D
www.tiptopaudio.com/

User avatar
paranormind
Common Wiggler
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:59 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by paranormind » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:26 pm

I don't really get the details of the output level. I understand it's intended to be an end-of-chain FX to output at line level, but is it high enough to be further processed at eurorack level? Not sure what "50% above line level" means :despair:

User avatar
Pighood
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1933
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:48 pm

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by Pighood » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:40 pm

What is with the left and right CV inputs? They don't seem to respond at all to incoming CV. Only the middle time/fidelity jack in the middle responds.
*phnert*

continuum
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:59 am

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by continuum » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:47 pm

paranormind wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:26 pm
I don't really get the details of the output level. I understand it's intended to be an end-of-chain FX to output at line level, but is it high enough to be further processed at eurorack level? Not sure what "50% above line level" means :despair:
It is high enough level for Eurorack. I posted this on page 2 of this thread:
Here are some measurements:

Saw 10v p-p input
Mono Delay 0% feedback, filter fully open

Dry 100% = 7 V p-p
Mix 50/50% = 11.5V
Wet = 7V


The input leaves a lot of headroom when fed direct VCO signals so the processing can do feedback etc. The wet output can go up to 9V p-p without clipping and can do 10V with some pretty hard clipped output.
Tiptop Audio R&D
www.tiptopaudio.com/

continuum
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:59 am

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by continuum » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:49 pm

Pighood wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:40 pm
What is with the left and right CV inputs? They don't seem to respond at all to incoming CV. Only the middle time/fidelity jack in the middle responds.
They do work. The knob for each is an offset so if they are cranked up the CV won't do much. Certain parameters like the modulation of the reverb might be pretty subtle under CV, but filters and pitch settings should be quite noticeable.
Tiptop Audio R&D
www.tiptopaudio.com/

User avatar
zvukoprocessor
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:51 pm
Location: Berlin

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by zvukoprocessor » Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:35 am

[bbvideo] [/bbvideo]

User avatar
paranormind
Common Wiggler
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:59 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by paranormind » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:40 am

Just ordered my ECHOZ. Hardest decision was to select the right color. I think I nailed it.

smoo
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:34 am

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by smoo » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:40 pm

After using the Zverb and the Z5000, I just had to order the Echoz too. Those little boxes are stuffed with real magic. It doesnt matter at all, that Echoz has just one input. But the fidelity option on Delays is genious. As I said before, the Levels are no problem at all.

User avatar
cackland
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1710
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:42 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by cackland » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:03 pm

paranormind wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:40 am
Just ordered my ECHOZ. Hardest decision was to select the right color. I think I nailed it.
What did you go with?

User avatar
Pighood
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1933
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:48 pm

Re: New FX modules from Tiptop Audio - ZVERB ECHOZ Z5000

Post by Pighood » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:07 pm

I got black ones by consequence of Detroit Modular being shipped black versions of the EchoZ and Zverb, after having ordered the white versions since they were 100mA, as opposed to the 130mA for the black ones.

However, a little creative module shiftery yielded an equitable amperage solution, and the black ones looked cooler too.
*phnert*

Post Reply

Return to “Eurorack Modules”