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Post by commodorejohn » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:34 pm

p_shoulder wrote:So there's a huge risk of training bias here. This applies even for the actual generation of the music... my guess is even if they get it "right", the models will probably (unless they are careful) fit the training profile of the typical AI researcher demographic, so not be so useful elsewhere.
That's okay - doing all your testing on a limited subset of people who closely align with the mindset and experiences of the developers themselves and then responding to any and all criticism by insisting that the general public should change to more closely conform to the tested demographics is SOP in Silicon Valley.
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Post by onthebandwagon » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:50 pm

p_shoulder wrote:[

In the end, maybe I'm sure AI can come up with *something*. But I think there's a great chance that it will end up being in uncanny valley territory, and be useless socially. If they get it right, I'll concede eventually AI might eventually make sanitized global pop music that beautiful idols can do choreographed dance to. That type of thing isn't the best in music, though. Maybe a more narrowly focused tool that is designed for musicians to fool with, instead of farting out some bad tune on command, actually could work, too, for all I know...
Sounds like k-pop has already filled this void with a void.
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Post by hex » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:51 am

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Post by vidret » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:00 am

BailyDread wrote:
p_shoulder wrote:
artieTwelve wrote:But AI has no concept of "narrativium" or human interaction (DJs and bar bands can respond to the crowd vibe, do you think AI has a chance here?)
I'm skim reading this thread at work so this is possibly not relevant to the point you were making, but the only thing to stop an AI from being able to do this is that it doesn't have the tech yet to be able to simultaneously monitor the nervous system reactions of the entire crowd of people. If it could, it could hypothetically run second by second trial and error for which intervals and sounds etc caused the greatest pleasure response to the greatest number of people in the room, and it would then do more of that, and less of whatever the inverse was. Within no time at all, the crowd will have their vibe responded to and accounted for. It would not be a one-size-fits all, since a crowd of people wanting something "heavy" would only have the neurological signature of pleasure if presented w/ something suitably "heavy", even if in their other listening, they respond pleasurably to jazz or something. It's basically like having a taste for hot chocolate, but being in the mood for coffee. A machine w/ suitably detailed readings on your nervous system response would be able to detect that you were in the mood for coffee over hot chocolate by measuring your physiological responses to both stimuli at a given moment. This could occur so subtly you would never notice, and possibly, so effectively, that you prefer the drink machine to the barista, or the robot DJ to the dude behind the booth.

The AI would not need any kind of "taste", it would merely have to have a suitable picture of what "crowd having a great time enjoying music that is personally suited to them" looks like, neurologically. That's not particularly hard to think up, hypothetically, so I don't see why this isn't right around the corner.

This is why considerations into "transgressive" and "challenging" art are important; they violate the logical form of art appreciation I've presented here, potentially giving a neurologically non-pleasurable response (at least initially), but nevertheless impacting the person intaking it. And so there may still be uncovered stones in the arts, that machines cannot touch, at least insofar as they can't figure out the weirder parts of human life.

I'm fairly certain that part of what allows for transgressive art to be unaccounted for by AI is that it's psychologically unsound, as in mentally illogical. Such left-turns might in fact be very difficult to account for within an AI-analyzing-human picture simply b/c it makes no damn sense to be drawn to something that legitimately disgusts you, for example... kind of in the way that economics models have a hard time accounting for people who are just completely bonkers about how they handle money. Maybe the equivalent within the arts are the only non-machine-learnable moves to make.

TL;DR: AI will be able to manipulate the emotions and beliefs of crowds of people very directly with an extreme degree of effectiveness, very, very soon

cheers! :deadbanana:
this makes me want to set the goal picture of the crowd as feeling ill or being horrified and then the machine tries its best to get the crowd there :hmm: :mrgreen: :omg:

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