Moog Vocoder

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booger
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Moog Vocoder

Post by booger » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:13 pm

This deserves its own thread...

I think it looks amazing. People are going to hate on the price (and I’ll never be able to afford one) but it still looks and sounds really nice. I still remember a time when most Moog synths seemed somewhat rare and expensive so I’m not going cry about things outside of my price point. Can’t wait to hear more demos.

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by rowsbywoof » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:28 pm

Fuuuuuuccc. Pricey, and way more just everything than I thought it would be. They really brought it, huh? I didn't really dig the sound of the module build vocoder they did at the last Moogfest, so I'm interested in hearing what this much more verbose 'coder can do and sounds like. Yeah, bit to pricey for me too, but very cool to see nonetheless.

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by jdaddyaz » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:59 pm

Looks super duper. Maybe if I hit the lotto I'll get one. Never understood why people bad mouth gear that's quality but out of their price range. Maybe its jealousy or bitterness of being reminded of their poor financial responsibilities.
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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by synthetek » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:35 am

rowsbywoof wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:28 pm
Fuuuuuuccc. Pricey, and way more just everything than I thought it would be. They really brought it, huh? I didn't really dig the sound of the module build vocoder they did at the last Moogfest, so I'm interested in hearing what this much more verbose 'coder can do and sounds like. Yeah, bit to pricey for me too, but very cool to see nonetheless.
This is a clone of the 1979 Moog/Bode Vocoder its nothing new, just look it up if you want to hear what it can do its on a lot of stuff and there are plenty of videos.

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by rowsbywoof » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:16 am

synthetek wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:35 am
rowsbywoof wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:28 pm
Fuuuuuuccc. Pricey, and way more just everything than I thought it would be. They really brought it, huh? I didn't really dig the sound of the module build vocoder they did at the last Moogfest, so I'm interested in hearing what this much more verbose 'coder can do and sounds like. Yeah, bit to pricey for me too, but very cool to see nonetheless.
This is a clone of the 1979 Moog/Bode Vocoder its nothing new, just look it up if you want to hear what it can do its on a lot of stuff and there are plenty of videos.
Yeah, I realized that after posting, and I’ve probably heard it over and over again over the years and didn’t know that was an old Moog vocoder I was hearing. The demo Sweetwater did gave a great overview of it and what it’s capable of, as well. It’s freaking sweet. Wish I could justify it. Looks and sounds like a ton of fun.

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by lisa » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:14 am

jdaddyaz wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:59 pm
Never understood why people bad mouth gear that's quality but out of their price range.
I’m not sure it’s about bashing things one can’t afford. I think that it’s more about the guts/audacity to charge five times more than most people would expect such a thing to go for. I think that it’s insanely priced even though I can afford it.

However, I don’t think there is anything wrong with Moog (or any other company) charging whatever they want for the stuff they sell. Also, Moog has launched several really expensive gadgets as of late so obviously they know there’s a market for it.
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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by jdaddyaz » Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:51 am

lisa wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:14 am
jdaddyaz wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:59 pm
Never understood why people bad mouth gear that's quality but out of their price range.
I’m not sure it’s about bashing things one can’t afford. I think that it’s more about the guts/audacity to charge five times more than most people would expect such a thing to go for. I think that it’s insanely priced even though I can afford it.

However, I don’t think there is anything wrong with Moog (or any other company) charging whatever they want for the stuff they sell. Also, Moog has launched several really expensive gadgets as of late so obviously they know there’s a market for it.
Yeah I can see that. I just remember not too long ago when Moog released their Moog One, and quite a few people were upset with the price of that, and crying out that it was overpriced and should be way cheaper. However, like you've stated, they must have a demand for this type of stuff. I will admit though, I kind of wish they'd put out another 60hp synth. The DFAM is one of my personal favorites.
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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by MarilynMonroe » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:30 am

Wow, what a nice product! :yay: It’s also out of my price range for a vocoder, but I‘m shure it worths every $. A good product has it‘s price tag. No worry about that. I‘m just pleased that Moog presents such a outstanding product. :yay:
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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by anselmi » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:02 pm

jdaddyaz wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:51 am
I just remember not too long ago when Moog released their Moog One, and quite a few people were upset with the price of that, and crying out that it was overpriced and should be way cheaper
Amazing marketing strategy! the Moog One looks cheap now :hihi:

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by Flounderguts » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:00 pm

tooo muuuch moooneeeey.

I was excited until I saw the price. Think of all the other gear you can get, instead.

I'll continue with the Vois for my vocoder....
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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by booger » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:44 pm

I wonder how it compares price wise to the original 1979 model (adjusted for inflation).

The multiple frequency ins/outs make this ultra-appealing.

(Maybe not $5k ultra-appealing but still :love: )

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by trentpmcd » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:14 pm

Price bashing from disappointment - "I want!!! Uhm, between $5K and $6K? How dare they..." ;) Seriously, it looks great. Oh, and to price, the GRP v22 22-band vocoder is now on pre-order for about $4k (price is in euro, so not exact). For the Moog, as a reissue of a desired piece of equipment and the "Moog" brand name on it, and with past experience on Moog pricing, I can understand the $5K+ price tag. I just won't be paying it (without a huge lottery win).

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by dml » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:32 pm

I wonder if Moog Music have plans for resurrecting either the String Filter or 12 Stage Phaser.
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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by Just me » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:51 pm

It is just as cool and just as out of reach as they were in the 70's.
Always wanted one. Now that I can afford one, I can't justify it.
If I have water in my ear, is it safe for me to listen to electronic music?

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by SynthBaron » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:19 pm

I wonder if they're using new old stock case parts from the inventory they bought off Mike Bucki. The original Moog must have made a big production run of them from that series of rackmount stuff they did.

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by hydrophilos » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:42 pm

I bought one new in 1980–they were $2000. I sold it for 1800 about 10 years later FWIW. Club of Knobs came out with one recently derived from this model but with additional possibilities...

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by KSS » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:56 pm

booger wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:44 pm
I wonder how it compares price wise to the original 1979 model (adjusted for inflation).
Across several online inflation calculators, 2000USD in 1980 is between 62-6700USD today

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by thetwlo » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:40 pm

KSS wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:56 pm
booger wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:44 pm
I wonder how it compares price wise to the original 1979 model (adjusted for inflation).
Across several online inflation calculators, 2000USD in 1980 is between 62-6700USD today
sure, but that isn't accurate for electronics. See what any computer, tv, audio mixer... about anything electronic, would be then, the cost now is almost always a lot cheaper even without adjusting for inflation. It's usually deflation for electronics.
Not complaining about the price, if it's well made it's great!!

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by anselmi » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:23 pm

thetwlo wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:40 pm
KSS wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:56 pm
booger wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:44 pm
I wonder how it compares price wise to the original 1979 model (adjusted for inflation).
Across several online inflation calculators, 2000USD in 1980 is between 62-6700USD today
sure, but that isn't accurate for electronics. See what any computer, tv, audio mixer... about anything electronic, would be then, the cost now is almost always a lot cheaper even without adjusting for inflation. It's usually deflation for electronics.
Not complaining about the price, if it's well made it's great!!

this is due to mass production and high demand
but this vocoder is a very boutique product, probably hand made, with thru-hole components and a lot of human work involved

this is why behringer can reduce costs, they mass produce and use SMT components, mainly with automation making and much less human interaction in the process

performance differences would be critical for some people and non-existent for others, and in all cases I think they could be "justified" by the price tag difference

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by onthebandwagon » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:24 pm

While I can afford to purchase eight or more of these and pay cash for them (all eight) if I so desire I just don’t need one or eight at the moment so I won’t be buying one or eight right now. If I have to pay twice the amount on the secondary market I will be able to afford to do so, so I’m not sweating it.
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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by booger » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:30 pm

onthebandwagon wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:24 pm
While I can afford to purchase eight or more of these and pay cash for them (all eight) if I so desire I just don’t need one or eight at the moment so I won’t be buying one or eight right now. If I have to pay twice the amount on the secondary market I will be able to afford to do so, so I’m not sweating it.
Yeah. My thoughts exactly :confused:

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by Kazremark » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:08 am

I’m already on the waiting list for the GRP vocoder, now I’m not sure which of the two I would find preferable. Anyone have thoughts on the topic. Both are probably pretty nice.

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by toxoplasma_gondii » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:52 pm

anselmi wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:23 pm
this is due to mass production and high demand
but this vocoder is a very boutique product, probably hand made, with thru-hole components and a lot of human work involved

this is why behringer can reduce costs, they mass produce and use SMT components, mainly with automation making and much less human interaction in the process

performance differences would be critical for some people and non-existent for others, and in all cases I think they could be "justified" by the price tag difference
Through-hole does not provide any benefit to the consumer for this type of product, outside of perhaps ease-of-repair, and if anything results in greater product inconsistency. Nor do I believe that this vocoder has any components which could not be easily sourced as SMD. Thus this seems to have been a purely marketing-based decision, designed to exploit consumer ignorance. To suggest that the absurd, and frankly insulting, price of this vocoder is warranted because it's through-hole or "hand-made" is nonsense.

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by mattb » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:32 pm

Generally speaking, resistor noise will be less in thru-hoLes. Metal Oxide resistors Used in smt have poor linearity and drift with temperature changes.

TH however with lead will introduce inductance that can potentially create resonance at RF. Said that, heat dissipation Is where TH really excel compared to SM, beside also the fact that SM boards are harder to troublehsoot and/or repair.

Another consideration is the fact that hand-wiring will bring attention to detail that contributes to the final quality of the product.
It really depends on the design, buts stating there is no difference is just not true.

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Re: Moog Vocoder

Post by KSS » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:33 pm

toxoplasma_gondii wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:52 pm
anselmi wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:23 pm
this is due to mass production and high demand
but this vocoder is a very boutique product, probably hand made, with thru-hole components and a lot of human work involved

performance differences would be critical for some people and non-existent for others, and in all cases I think they could be "justified" by the price tag difference
Through-hole does not provide any benefit to the consumer for this type of product, outside of perhaps ease-of-repair, and if anything results in greater product inconsistency. Nor do I believe that this vocoder has any components which could not be easily sourced as SMD. Thus this seems to have been a purely marketing-based decision, designed to exploit consumer ignorance. To suggest that the absurd, and frankly insulting, price of this vocoder is warranted because it's through-hole or "hand-made" is nonsense.
First you say it does not provide *any* benefit then immediately contradict yourself with "ease-of-repair", which can be *VERY* important to some people.
FWIW, I don't even agree that TH *is* eaiser to repair, as SMD has been around now a *long* time. And even TH zealots in the repair world by now often have plenty of SMD tools, skills and experience. But that doesn't make your minimization of what might be important to others any better.

Then you would have us believe you've done a thorough analysis of the Bode/moog schematic and BOM, to give us your conclusion about the parts involved. Please share the BOM and Schematice you based this conclusion upon. An honest request. I thought I had the schematic and BOM here, but did not see it and did not find it online in a search before posting this reply. I *do* have it somewhere, and will report back here when I come across it, if any components do favor or require TH -like large inductors.

Next you imply that choosing TH is a "marketing decision, designed to exploit consumer ignorance." You must know that SMD is only effective at reducing production costs when done in batches and batch size is often fairly large. This is a bigger factor if the PCB is also large, SMD setup costs are not linear. It is also true that this product has many elements which do not lend themselves to SMD automation -like the panel parts- and must be either hand-soldered, or again done using automated wave or selective soldering process where the batch size and upfront setup costs are a factor in the choice.
When a mfr sets out to build a product, there is a large upfront cost for SMD which is largely eliminated if TH hand production is chosen instead. The tradeoff being a higher unit cost with the hand assembly choice. A corollary factor is that the batch size of a hand assembled product accomodates variability -in batch size- *far* better than simply adding a few more dozens to an SMD run. If a hand assembled product needs a few dozen more made, you simply run the production awhile longer. This is *not* the case with SMD. For that, you have to have enough to again be worth the economically required batch size. Point is, you have to have a clear idea of production size and will be essentially stuck with it, after the SMD run. This seems to have bitten Korg in the butt on their recent 2600FS release.

Often missing in replies such as yours are an understanding of the money flow and choices mfrs have to deal with. To sum these points up, moog choosing to use hand assembled production for this allows them to have a lower initial investiment, and allows them to add to the production at any point without taking huge setup fees and parts procurement hassles.

Finally, The reality that hand asembled production costs more is not in dispute. It's a simple truth.

On the other hand, your conclusion that this results in an "absurd" and "insulting" price is personal and reflects your own beliefs. Because the fact is that moogs choice -whether you agree with it or not- *does" in fact mean that these *will* cost more to produce. Therefore an assertion that "hand-made" or TH *does* affect the price *is* warranted.

Whether real -or deceptive, as you claim- marketing was involved or not.

You've confused your own beliefs with moogs choice to do something different than you would hope or expect. Be frustrated, be mad, whatever. But you're not going to get very far when the practical and economic reasons behind the choice you disagree with do indeed support the choice made.

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